Captain_Photon

Wow. Character generation for those obsessed with the statistics, but completely lazy about costume design. It's like the anti-City of Heroes.

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You forgot Heroes also get the Cavern of Transcendence Trial.

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This is not necessarily a plus for them.

[ QUOTE ][*]Black Helicopters: Many Black Helicopters are parked right next to the ferries.

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They're also not helicopters, which I've always found a little puzzling.

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Therefore, it can be concluded that being imprisoned by trolls sure does a number on your grammar.

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And mysteriously transports you to the Skyway City police precinct's holding cell...

Looks like the Trolls pulled a fast one on my man Clawdacious today. The scanner said it was a routine enough job - clear out some Trolls from a PPD precinct house in Skyway City, defuse their bombs, make sure the guy they were trying to break out didn't escape. Up on the first floor everything was normal. Some Trolls, some bombs, nothing to work up a sweat over.

But down in the cellblock... something strange was afoot.

(Notice particularly the priceless Troll dialogue being delivered by the Troll Escapee who is... er... not a Troll. )

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especially when you do not develop the product that they bought as a stand alone game.

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Oh, come now. Anybody who believed that transparent marketing fiction...

(shrug)

Would anyone like to invest in some swampland? I'll let you have it at cost.

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People don't play red side because the devs don't add new content, the devs don't add new content because not enough people play red side. It's a circular argument, a Catch-22 as someone said earlier, but it isn't the same thing.

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It's also not what I said. Of the two options there, I said repeatedly that I believe it's B where most posters here seem to be taking the stance that it's A.

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Actually, it's been a common complaint from people who play heroes, that villains does not have the variety or the zones that hero side does or alternatives.

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As opposed to the hero players who are constantly complaining that the blue side has too many zones and can't we please get rid of a bunch and have our contacts stop forcing us to see more of the city...

(shrug)

Can't please everyone, I guess. (Oftentimes, especially on this board, it seems like you can't please anyone.)

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I think the people who take the "fewer players play villains than heroes because the villain side gets less developer attention" approach are confusing cause and effect and, as such, are just advocating that the development team waste a lot of time swimming against the current.

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And yet, the red side players that have been advocating more content for the last year are told, by players like you, that "the reason red side gets less developer attention is because there aren't enough players there".

So which is it?

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What do you mean, "Which is it?" What I said and what you just said are the same argument. The red side has a smaller niche, therefore it's entirely logical that not as much developer attention is paid to it.

Think of it like a bus route. If a bus on a particular route is always half-full, adding more seats to the bus isn't going to attract more riders. That's just how many people happen to want to go in that direction on that stretch of that street.

Similarly, I believe the number of players on the red side has nothing to do with developer attention or inattention; that's just the average number of players who prefer a villain-themed experience, and adding more neon lights to the Ferris wheel of evil isn't going to get any more people to climb on.

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Well, there's also the consideration of whether we think attracting more villain players would be good for the game in the first place.

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Not trying to be snarky; I'm seriously curious: do you think the devs should just let CoV wither and die?

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Not as such, but I don't think it's worth trying to come up with shiny new attractors just because red's niche is smaller than blue's. I think the people who take the "fewer players play villains than heroes because the villain side gets less developer attention" approach are confusing cause and effect and, as such, are just advocating that the development team waste a lot of time swimming against the current.

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But none of this matters if you don't think more villain content will attract more villains. That, to me, is the only reason for this entire thread.

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Well, there's also the consideration of whether we think attracting more villain players would be good for the game in the first place.

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You all ignore the dozens of inconsistencies with theme, deeming them all acceptable, but then condemn this idea because it would be the most anti-thematic thing in the universe.

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Er, actually, no. I deplore a number of the alterations to the game that have damaged my ability to suspend disbelief. Don't take being stuck with something for accepting it.

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hopefully it will not work to defeat a proposal that will add more vibrancy to the game.

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Oh, there are plenty of other reasons not to do the "open all zones" thing. The documented fact that flagged PvP has failed miserably in other games, for instance. But hey, you don't really want to hear any of that. The really funny thing here is that you're doing exactly what you're huffily indicting everyone else for. You like this idea, and that's all that really matters to you.

So, fine. You hope it happens; I hope it doesn't. The main difference is that if it doesn't, your enjoyment level remains the same; if it does, mine goes down. I'll take your no-op over my net loss any day. That's just logical self-interest.

Ironically, in neither event will our feelings affect whether the development team takes action. We're just two clowns fighting in a tiny car over something about which the vast majority of the circus's other 130,000 clowns don't even care.

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Show me where anyone has given an ARGUMENT for Immersion.

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The game itself is a strong argument for immersion. All games that are not completely abstract are. That's why we have games with themes, instead of just featureless black and white pieces, in the first place. Otherwise, we might as well just be in a huge white room with a level dispenser and some mission doors off to one side. Cripes, even incredibly primitive computer games like Spacewar and Arkanoid involve at least attempting to imagine you're someone else, somewhere else, doing something else. They required more suspension of disbelief than modern games, but that's just a function of the technology involved. The principle remains the same, and just as fundamental now as then.

See, this is why I think you're trolling - because the alternative is to believe that you're just so monumentally culturally tone-deaf that you don't grasp this fundamental fact underlying the entire concept of games, and since you're able to operate a computer and form sentences, that seems somehow unlikely.

As for where players have specifically made the case for immersion in City of Heroes? Grow up. You've been around here a long time, I've been here a long time, and I've watched you have this same ridiculous argument four or five times over the years against whole successive generations of people. The phrasing changes, the avatars change, the song remains the same. And since I don't think you're genuinely clueless enough to believe what you're saying, the only alternative is that you just get off on taking untenable positions and "defending" them with cheap rhetorical stunts.

I suppose everyone needs a hobby.

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Because a canard is a groundless belief. Since I've presented grounds for why I think immersion is a worthless design consideration and that belief that it is worthwhile is groundless.

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And yet, presented with other players' grounds for why they think it isn't a worthless design consideration - which you have been, over and over and over again - you call that belief a canard? Hmm.

Speaking of trolls.

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immersion is nonsense. It needs to be dead and buried.

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Speaking of tired old canards.

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Loot
Crafting
Flashback
MoG fix
A way to earn unlimited respecs

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Hmm... well, on my personal scorecard, that's two Lames, an Okay But Awkwardly Implemented, a No Data (don't have any Regen Scrappers above the mid-20s) and an Indifferent (never had a particularly burning need for respecs). So, uh, well done, I guess.

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I've fought similar fights before just to see my ideas come into the game and the doubters slink away to enjoy that which they said they would hate.

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Such as... ?

Man, where is my popcorn. Watching this group of users argue about this particular design point is like watching blindfolded clowns battle for supremacy inside their tiny car.

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Say what you want about ganking, but I would find this super fun.

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I've played a game that was set up this way, thinking it might not be a problem - not my cup of tea, but so long as my own flag is off, what would it hurt?

I don't play that game any more.

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Open all zones to both sides.

Create a new PvE structure that allows people to "fight" (as in oppose by means other than combat) the other faction.

Example, Longbow creates bases in all Villain zones and gives sabotage and liberation missions to heroes. Arachnos creates similar bases in Paragon and gives villains an opportunity to do what they do best.

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No

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Yes

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Can't argue with that!

(... it's still not a good idea, but.)

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Co-op zones seem to be more attractive since they are a way for the devs to spend development time on both sides without having to worry about the relative population numbers on each side, but the more it is done, the more weird it gets, concept-wise.

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Clearly, then, what is required is an issue event in which Arachnos is defeated, after which Paragon City can annex the Rogue Isles. No more villains, no more villain zones, no more overlap problems.

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So ... we understand each other then?



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I'm not entirely convinced you understand what you're saying.

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To Cap I say "To each his own."

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Which I'd agree with, except that my own happens to involve this stupid event actually ending at some point, which it's not going to do.

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I was hoping to just avoid them by not playing until the event was over, only to discover to my horror that it never entirely will.

Feh.

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Never is inaccurate unless you mean due to the Lady Grey TF which spawns a random zone invasion upon completion.

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What else would I mean? This is a little like saying "Saying terminal disease leads to death is inaccurate unless by 'terminal' you mean those diseases that lead to death."

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Despite the outcry from the DOOMsayers with bare minimum hardware to play the game

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Point of order: My hardware handles the invasion just fine. I just happen to think they're unfun and lame.

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Well Cap, you can avoid them and with the patch notes for the Test Server today, soon you will even be able to ignore the Invasion messages.

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I was hoping to just avoid them by not playing until the event was over, only to discover to my horror that it never entirely will.

Feh.