Cantatus

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After digesting this thread for a little while and thinking about it fully, I've come to a conclusion.

The Playerbase really doesn't know what it wants.

Reason: Look around this thread. Then look around the training room forum. How many posts do you see where someone says "Put I8 on live now!" versus how many you see that say "Wait and fix all the bugs first!" How many times over the past year have we heard the "I'd take a whole issue of just bug fixes" hogwash versus how many people claiming there's not enough in an issue to warrant its development? Or the people claiming they want smaller updates faster versus those who say there isn't enough in each update?

So, going by what the forums have stated they want, we can make this list of demands:

* More stuff in each update
* Less stuff in each update
* Wait until all bugs are fixed
* Push it live now and worry about bugs later
* Give us more missions and content for level 50s
* Give us more missions and content for every other level for my alts
* Give us more costume pieces
* Stop wasting time developing costume pieces
* Just give us an entire issue of bug fixes
* Bug fixes are not content and shouldn't be wasted on an issue
* Give us faster updates with new content
* Take your time and finalize content, don't just give us halfbaked new stuff

See where the problem comes here?

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And this surprises anyone? You take over 100,000 different people, ask their opinion and expect them to agree?

Hands down, the storyline.

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The solution is simple. Personal player housing through SG bases.


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Great minds think alike. Posi and I have been talking about this for awhile.

Here's the not so simple bit: the tech. But it's an interesting idea that we're wrangling at the moment.

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Well, if you go this way, please at least add functionality to houses. A lot of other games make player houses nothing more than glorified lockers. CoH has the potential to take things a lot further.

Hate when the story guys leave.

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I want to stess this:

We are NOT working on a Greek mythology game. Or an ancient history game. Just want to kill that rumour!

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Admit it, it's a Teletubby MMOG, isn't it?

/bow Statesman

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There’s no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the “personal items” would do the trick, but it isn’t really the same thing, is it?

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"Personal items" aren't really comparable to costumes for the fact that there's no customization attached. I can create and place a teleporter in my base, but so can anyone else, and they'll all look the same. Three months down the road, no one is going to remember who built them. They might be personal in the sense that you created them, but there are no personal touches on them. If the items themselves had some customization like the rooms do, people might feel more like they are "theirs."

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And your idea that “personal items” somehow fills the gap between the base architects and rank-and-file members really, really points out why so many of us say that bases (which are a good concept) were poorly developed. “Personal items” are not the least bit personal. I am unaware of anyone who thinks of them that way.

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Completely agree. I saved up enough salvage to make a teleporter. Big deal, someone else in my SG did the same exact thing.

If they want "personal items" they should go a route that makes housing much more popular in other MMOGs. That is, reward people's accomplishments with base items. For example, in EQ2, I can do a quest and get an item to hang in my house. Whenever someone enters my house, they can see I worked hard to get that particular item. CoH tries to do with with the SG badges, but so many of those are just passive accomplishments (eg healing) where you don't feel like you're accomplishing anything at all since it comes naturally. There's nothing to work towards on a personal level for bases.

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If there's anything to be addressed here, it's the stark lack of Variety in Missions and means of leveling. Every mission operates on the same predicatable Spawn-Algorythem and the only time you get "suprises" is when 2 groups spawn together in an Intersection.

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You know, I have to say it's pretty sad that a game that can pride itself on such huge diversity in its costume and base system continues to have such a tiny and highly repetitive selection of mission, but I digress.

First off, thanks for taking the time to reply, Statesman.

Secondly, Clintonian (and others) did a fantastic job of explaining the differences between costumes and bases, so I won't go into that much. I do feel like one thing was missed in that regard, however:

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Intestingly, costumes have no gameplay value. They don't boost damage. They don't boost resistance. They don't boost defense. They're only for show.

Now, let's take a look at bases. Take away the teleporters, take away anything game related.

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You can't take away the functionality of bases to make this comparison. Bases are not just about looking cool or unique in the way that costumes are. They are also about giving players specific benefits. In fact, these features (such as base raiding) seemed to be hyped far more than the customization prior to CoV's release. If you want to compare the costs of both bases and costumes, the benefits of both have to be taken into consideration as well.

What benefits do I get from building a base? I can teleport to other zones, rez in the base, make items for my base, store things, get some buffs etc. Is that worth the price (both in prestige and meeting the various restrictions - eg power, control, etc.) to use them? Others have covered already why a lot of these benefits are just not worth getting and spending thousands of prestige.

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Well, the thing is, going by the forums, it wasn't exactly a misunderstanding. Or did I just hallucinate all those people saying they shouldn't have to give up influence for prestige, or complaining about being prestige batteries for insensitive SGs?

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Well, it's more a point of historicism.

We know what we've been saying since I6; and we have explicit indications that the Devs have been paying attention to those points. Otherwise, States and Posi wouldn't be so quite so willing to admit the unfortunate miscalculations in their implementation of Bases.

The natural response is why haven't they been getting fixed already? To which I'd argue that there have been clear priorities for content: L40+ Villainside content in I7, and now Scanner/Safeguards for Heroside in I8.

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I would say they have been working on it. They did just give us a few new rooms/items to cut down the cost and allow us to power our bases faster, after all. We also know they've been working on getting IoPs in, as evidenced by the Cathedral of Pain being on and off Test. Of course, it's frustrating that it's taken them a year, and they haven't even gotten that part in. Not sure what's worse, the fact that base raiding still isn't in and won't be anytime in the foreseeable future (big surprise bases aren't popular when their main feature never made it in the game, no?) or that they haven't tried to go a different way with things. I suppose the good thing, at least, is that they haven't completely abandoned bases like they have with other unpopular aspects of the game (eg arenas.)

I have to hand it to Statesman for at least recognizing and admitting that the system isn't working (although I wouldn't exactly agree with where the blame is being placed - ie us and the press.) Now hopefully Positron and he will read some of these threads and try to improve other aspects of the bases.

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I love my base. It's awesome, and would be a very cool place to hang out. Unfortunately...No one hangs out there. Why? Because there's no reason to.

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The random crashes and booting people out are sort of a buzz killer for that sort of thing too.

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Not to mention you can't even let your friends in the bases anymore since they just get booted automatically.

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2) they don't have anything to do with our day-to-day activities in CoH/V.

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Completely agree with you on this one. The problem is that they're too separate from the rest of the game. What am I going to do in my base? Put stuff in storage? Use the teleporters? Use the medibay? Use the workshops to make more of the above? All of this is stuff that takes me a few minutes, at most, to use. Yeah, having a place I can store my useless Hami-Os is nice, but nothing earth shattering. I pop in, pop out, and that's it.

There's no reason for me to be in my base beyond that. If they ever got the base raids up and running, they'd definitely be more popular. As it is, you have a ton of stuff for bases (weapons, special plots, etc) that are entirely useless or pointless to spend prestige on, because they currently do nothing. It also removes the need to build a bigger base. My base has the teleporter, medibay, storage items, etc. and is only 6 or 7 2x2 rooms. Why do I need anything bigger aside from aesthetics? I have everything I need on my tiny plot.

Of course, the thing that has always stuck out to me the most is that the most fun aspect of bases is limited to a very small portion of the playerbase: building the base. It's a lot of fun to design and put together a base, but unless I'm a leader of a SG or appointed architect, I'm never going to get to experience this. Between the way it's currently set up and Cryptic's refusal to add individual bases, they've essentially spent a ton of time putting together an excellent feature that few get to play with. Why should magazines cover this? Just to show people what they're missing out on?

Bases have a ton of potential, but Jack saying stuff like this doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence in them getting it right anytime soon. In fact, those quotes almost make it sound like he's given up. In my opinion, if they want to make the base system more usable, they need to:

- Add individual bases/apartments: Allow the building and designing of a base to be something EVERYONE can play with.

- Add trophies/souvenirs as rewards that can be displayed in bases. For individual apts. this could be things like completing a story arc or earning specific badges. For SG bases, it could be having a certain amount of trials completed or a specific monster defeated a few times.

- Add more SG raids. Tie them in with accomplishing various things with the bases so there are reasons to grow your base.

- Add missions that take place within the SG base. For example, you steal a powerful weapon from the Rikti, and then you have to defend the base so they can't get it back. This not only would allow those pointless protection items to become useful, but give an additional need for bigger bases.

etc.

As it stands now, with PvP raids no time in the foreseeable future, they've designed bases with few uses aside from a few conveniences over what someone without a base has. Nice to be able to rez in the base and run back, but it only saves me a few minutes time. Same thing with teleporters. Nice short cut, but nothing I miss too much when I play alts.

Just another one of those things in the game that has so much potential, but something they've also seemed to miss the ball on. If they're serious about making bases useful, maybe they should start listening to suggestions on how to do so.

Hooray!

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Well, we could, but I'm just going to operate on the assumption that its not happening until I see it announced in a Features Update.

I wonder if the furor over another issue with no content for level 50s would be worse than the furor over vet. rewards.

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Dunno, but it'd be nice to at least have them tell us it got pushed back for whatever reason rather than having it be a surprise when the Issue goes up. Probably not going to be happy people either way, but at least it gets it out of the way so the focus can be on the testing.

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It would be a nice compromise since player apartments were scrapped.

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They've been scrapped?

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From what I've read over the past few months, yes. I seem to remember the smaller starter rooms and items for bases that were recently added were a consolation for the scrapping of the player apartment feature. They are a means for smaller groups to get a functional base much sooner. Of course if I'm way off here, someone feel free to chime in.

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To be scrapped, they would have had to be bringing it out to us in the first place. No such announcement was ever made. Not even a vague "maybe". Closest is basically saying "it's just not something we want to focus on"...which equates about to "not a definate no, but far from a yes".

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Actually, it was talked about in CoV beta, and we were told (by Loki, if I recall) that it was something we'd see shortly after CoV's release. Unfortuantely, this is nothing I can prove, but I remember it clearly.

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It would be a nice compromise since player apartments were scrapped.

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They've been scrapped?

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Yes, Positron mentioned it in a previous interview. He wanted to put the time/energy/resources into other aspects for improving the game.

And in a lot of ways, he's right. This is what I meant by the game losing itself to aspects of The Sims. At some point it stops becoming a community environment and starts becoming a solo game. To reserve a personal room inside the base is still very much asking for a "player's apartment."

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EverQuest 2 manages to have personal housing and still maintains a healthy grouping community, as does FFXI. The actual gameplay has more affect on whether people solo or not rather than their housing, especially is aspects of the housing encourage grouping. For example, maybe doing the Sister Psyche TF unlocks a new wall texture and personal base item.

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At the end of the day, why would the Devs want players to spend all their time in their personal apartments when they should be motivated to head outside and explore the zones?

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Because it could add something to do besides fighting? That's seriously one of the things the game is lacking and has been for the past couple of years.

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If a request for player apartments outweighs the priority of new zone material, then there's a problem with players feeling *motivated* to go explore the outside world.

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Well, I'd agree with you on this, but I think that's a whole other issue!

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I thought bases would be a lot cooler if there were a couple buildings in the zone that allowed access to them instead of the blue, glowey column. Like, an office complex/apartment building in the zones. As you get the teleport beacons, you can upgrade the building that facades the base.

Eh, I don't know. That column was just kinda a surprise.

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That sums up my feelings nicely. I HATE that blue column.

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Yeah, I agree with that as well. I'd really love if you could actually claim a building (or sewer, whatever) to be your base. It'd be great to be able to stake a claim in the game rather than having the blue portal or artificialness.

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I remember the recent Boomtown interview with Positron, and reading his comments on player apartments. Him saying that player apartments offered no real gameplay opportunities, and therefore weren't of real importance.

I was so disappointed reading that, being that for one I would love to have a personal base, and two because personal bases are only as important as the game designers decide to make them.

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Completely agree with you. The unfortunate thing is personal bases could have a lot of real gameplay opportunities if they sat down and brainstormed what they could do with them. Sure, other games just make them so they're essentially where you store your junk, but CoH has always gone above and beyond the other MMOGs, yet here it doesn't even look like they're trying.

And really, the "personal" aspect of SG bases is one of the reasons it's not that attractive. Statesman says that the customization of the SG bases is really what sets their housing apart from other MMOGs, but how many people actually see that? I know I've said this before, but their elaborate system for building SGs is only going to be seen by a small group of people (ie the SG leaders.) That's why personal bases would be an improvement. "Build a base!" is not a solution for "There’s nothing to do besides combat!" because it's not something everyone can do. It's likely not even something 25% of the players can do.

But, going beyond that, what even is there to do in bases that make them attractive? Most of the stuff are things that are instananeous in nature. For example, I can put a teleporter in my base, but why is that going to make me want to use my base besides as a way to get to other zones? I can put a hospital in it, but why is that going to want me to go into my base aside for when I die? Heck, even the more elaborate stuff like the workshops and empowerment stations are something you're only going to spend a few minutes at at a time.

Realistically, if they want bases to be used more often, they need to design them in a way that isn't akin to pulling something out from the back of your closet every once in a while. For example, one thing I'd really love to see is base invasions by NPCs. You get some item in your base (maybe it's loot, maybe it's a person), and you have to protect them in your base. Not only would that give you a reason to be in your base, but it'd also give you a reason to utilize some aspects of the bases (ie defense) that are largely ignored by the non-PvP SGs.

There's a lot of potential with bases. They've built the skeleton of something that could be a really great and innovative system for a MMOG. I just hope they continue to think of ways to make people actually want to use them for more than a few minutes at a time rather than give up on them. There's really a lot of room for things that could be done for SG bases and personal bases that would add another element to the game, and if they have no ideas, I'd be happy to provide some.

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It isn't the popularity of bases so much as the fact that our programming & art team did a phenomenal job of allowing players to generate their own lairs. Maybe not enough players have experienced this content to comment on it, though hopefully Posi's changes will help.

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Yes, they did do a fantastic job with the designs and decorations. RP wise, it's a blast. One or two rooms, a few things, a bar, whatever, it's a blast. PvP wise, I don't know. The IoP trial ahasn't been activated yet, the SG I'm in that wants to do that has someone who's participated in raids doing the design but we won't know how well that works for awhile yet.

It seems like one of the big selling points for having both games was access to bases. Bases for an IoP trial. An IoP trial that still isn't up. I'm not really complaining, just kinda bored waiting. I'm in other SG's that have completely different purposes but that one feels kinda stuck right now.

Anyway, no, the art and stuff is phenomenal, the other stuff is still up in the air. Was there something awhile back about crafting enhancements in the bases? Or was that for the universities?

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Exactly. Why are bases not used much? Because there's so little to do with them. Most of the stuff that truly made bases unique - base raids, IoP trials, SG TFs, etc. - either haven't made it into the game or are in at a very small degree.

Sure, I can design my base, but they've designed the system in a way that such a small percentage of players are going to have any access to that. It's not like every person in a SG can edit the base. That's why I've been suggesting things for personal bases. They designed such a cool way to be able to make bases, but implemented in a way that a tiny fraction is ever going to get to play with it.

Hey, Posi, anyone looking into the bug that prevents groupmates from entering your base?

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Thanks for the update Posi! So it looks like that the top issues is going to be a regular update now?

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Oh, I hope so! Thanks, Positron!

CuppaJo, everytime I go to another MMOG's boards, I realize how good we have it here, and that's largely because of the time and care you've put into it. You've really raised the bar, in my eyes, of what a CR rep can and should do. I only can hope other companies see these things too.

You'll be missed greatly. You've done this game a great service. It wouldn't be the same without you, and your absence will be felt.

Additionally, grats on your promotion Cricket. You have some big shoes to fill. Luckily, you have a few extra feet.

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(a) Street sweeping is boring -- even compared to grinding the same instance maps over and over again.

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Thats complete nonsense. Moving from one spawn to the next is the same in missions as it is on the streets.

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I didn't say combat or tactics were different. I said it's boring. Door missions have backstories and objectives, which while pretty simplistic, at least give you a reason for what you're doing, and each mission advances a plotline that has an ultimate payoff. This is the part that is lacking in street missions.

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Then you're missing the point. People like Tal_N and I aren't just asking for more Kill X missions outdoors. We're asking for a reason to fight outdoors, which, in my opinion, should be exactly what you're talking about - objectives and backstories. If they got creative enough with the missions, stuff like this could easily be accomplished. Just because it's boring now, doesn't mean it would still be boring after they started adding new missions.

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Something has to be done to bring back hunting in hazard zones as a valid alternative to missions in the eyes of the player community.

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Definitely, which is why I'm an avid fan of new types of noninstanced, outdoor missions. I'd also love to see them bring over some of the zonewide events from PvP zones and put those into PvE zones.

Dressing up the zone and giving it new contacts really doesn't make the zone that much more used. It just makes the doors there used.

Pretty cool to hear Positron talking like one of us.

Logged in today with my SG of myself and a couple others (as well as tons of retirees) earning 700k new prestige.

It's sort of amusing: Yesterday I was talking to my friend about how excited I was about the new base stuff they're coming up with... now I don't even need it.