Calash

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No but i think the very first version of Rage had the player dropping all toggles and be disoriented when buff duration expired. ( maybe im mixing stuff with the old Unstoppable power... All this is so far behind... ).

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I believe you are correct. Could not find the proof, all the good CoX data sites are blocked at work :'(

Makes me want to roll one. Currently working on a SD/SS build but the more I think about i...almost tempted to reroll.

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It's a question of balance but not balancing in a vacuum. Allowing tankers to become part time scrappers makes them the melee archetype of choice in every case.

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Hense the stated drawbacks that would balance out the equasion. We are talking about "Approching" scrapper level damage with a major decrease in the ability to mitigate damage. On top of that your statment had nothing to do with my quote. In that I was speaking of not making a change because of the "Uproar" from another group. That should never be a reason to or not to balance.

I am not saying balance in a vacuum, I am saying balance without the influence of potential people complaining.

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Furthermore the whole argument of tanker offense is based on the fact that we are not really focusing on tankers in the first place.

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As a Fire/SS I have no problem with Offense, I can hit 240% damage buff on my own.. The one thing I do see is, as I stated, the lack of a redundant role on a team for a Tank. Having them be able to fill in a bit more Melee damage would allow for a couple of different roles on a team and perhaps some more diversity.

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The weird thing is, Mc, because you're repeating that in an odd colour, I'm finding it really easy to not read. O.o

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QFT. I have yet to even try and read it. I see it quoted after everything else, and odd color, and apparently not related to the reply and my mind just skips it.

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The only way I think this argument would ever be resolved would be to introduce stances as a Tank only inherent (I think Stars came up with the idea once, though borrowed from WOW).

Defensive: Everything is as we have it now.

Offensive: Scale the damage modifier to just below scrapper levels, lower Res and Def cap to balance the increased Offensive ability. Adds Critical hits that scale a bit below a Scrapper.

Switching can be done on the fly, but shares a similar long animation to a self teleport and detoggles you.

This would let you pick your role based on the needs of the team. It would also boost the solo capability of tank.

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Why play a Scrapper when Tankers can turn into Scrappers?

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just below scrapper levels

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Scrappers would still be on top for pure damage. The balance point could be in the cap penalties for switching the stance, bringing your numbers below a Scrapper while moving you close in offense.

The one problem I really seed with thanks is the redundancy on teams. The way CoX has evolved the presence of more than one tank on a team rarely adds much. There are situations where many tanks can be a benefit, but they are more the exception than the rule.

Allowing the tank to focus their strength into offense and act as an off-tank while bringing more respectable damage to the table could fill in some of the gaps.

As to "How long until X starts screaming?"....who cares? Balance points of an AT should not be dependent on the vocal response of a separate AT. Lets focus on Tanks first...being that this is the Tanker forum.

The only way I think this argument would ever be resolved would be to introduce stances as a Tank only inherent (I think Stars came up with the idea once, though borrowed from WOW).

Defensive: Everything is as we have it now.

Offensive: Scale the damage modifier to just below scrapper levels, lower Res and Def cap to balance the increased Offensive ability. Adds Critical hits that scale a bit below a Scrapper.

Switching can be done on the fly, but shares a similar long animation to a self teleport and detoggles you.

This would let you pick your role based on the needs of the team. It would also boost the solo capability of tank.

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Am I the only Tanker that thinks Gauntlet is fine as is?

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I am right there with you.

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I sense some anger...


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Much like sarcasm, tact, and moral fiber, anger does not exist on the internet. I personally never take any discussion more than friendly bantering with the benefit of being semi-anonymous.

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Endless resetting a mission before it's completed is abusing the system. You're looking to save the day, but wait, I'll gonna reset time to get more practice out of it. Again and again and again. Farming is indeed abusing the system. Moving onto the next mission isn't.

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Here is where we differ. My definition of farming is the repeated hunting of a group or individual mobs to maximize the potential rewards gained. You are describing an exploit in the form of a farm, not all farms.

Counter example. I run around the RWZ in a nice circle hunting and killing the same groups over and over. This is farming, yet not exploiting.

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One must reply to someone to post on a thread.


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Then don't complain when you get a response.

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Since changing you colors will be -20% damage how many of the non-carebears will actually do this?

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I think you were going for a troll post to see how many people believed this, but you went too far with the number and now people are just going to post here to make fun of you.

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QFT. If you are going to troll, please put some effort and creativity into it. Otherwise it is just a waste of my time.

PutterKnife

Plexiglass Kerpumpkin

Polystyrene Kettlecorn

Psychophneumatic Kornpress

Peeto daKay

The artist formerly known as P_K

Without Pie my creativity is stifled beyond recognition.

Phorum Knuckles

Ok, Ill play for now...

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No dice? Your analogy didn't hold up. "No dice" doesn't discount that. If a cause has a poor effect, one should not do it. It's common sense. My example was extreme, but still. If 'only the result are bad', why on Earth would you cause them to begin with?

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Some reasult....Read it slowly....SOME results. Did you get it?

SOME results.

Meaning not all. Meaning the ones that are not detrimental to the system. Ergo the "no dice" comment for trying to take my words out of context. I already posted my mistake yet you are fixed upon a now proven inaccurate statement.

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The point is, when an abuse occurs, there will always be someone to speak out.

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Why is talking about abuse? Farming does not = abuse. That is the point of my argument.

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What's incredible about all this is, I made a short post with my (frankly, rather dim) opinion of farms. It could easily been ignored. Since I have had to defend this opinion, from those threatens by it. My opinion can't force you to my view. Yet you discount and fight it. The best thing one could have done is ignored it. Your very conviction to discount my words only strengthens my own arguement.

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You replied directly to my general post. Therefore I replied to you directly. If you wanted your statement to be general you should not have replied to me.

Outside of your direct responses to my posts I could care less about your opinion in general. My post was pointing out that people jump on the word Farm without understanding what it is.


So again I will ask you to define farming in such a way that it could not be used to describe the basic function of almost all MMOs.

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anti-farming people need to take a step back and stop flying off the handle any time uses the word "Farm".

Farms are not bad. I farm RWZ on my Fire/SS when I have nothing to do. Yes, I run beck and fourth killing Rikti over and over...O...M.....G!!!!

Farmin is not bad. It is the results of farming that can cause problems. Power leveling to eBay characters, RMT, and that type of stuff. The solution is not to stop farming however, it is to stop these unwanted results.

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I presented my reasons. Farming was never something the devs meant to happen. They've done what they can to stop it, and it means they must spend time on that instead of expanding on the game.
I can't figure how you mean "only the results are bad". It's like saying jumping of a cliff isn't bad, it's only the resulting impact that's bad. If the results are bad, you don't do it.

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Define to me farming in such a way as it cannot be used to describe the entire game focus for any MMO.

Farming is not only designed into the game, it is the while point of the game. Time = Reward. Efficiently use the time and you get more reward. That is what Farming truly is, and that is not a bad thing.


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I can't figure how you mean "only the results are bad". It's like saying jumping of a cliff isn't bad, it's only the resulting impact that's bad. If the results are bad, you don't do it.

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I meant some results. Thanks for trying to use my words against me but...well...no dice.

The point is people need to get off their high horse and stop screaming every time somebody posts the word Farm. I means more than just what you think it does, and outside of your mind it is not that horrible of a thing.

Leave it to me to think of pie first

I would be less worried about WW floating and more worried about the infinite void that opened up under it.

I guess we each have our own priorities...

Pie King

anti-farming people need to take a step back and stop flying off the handle any time uses the word "Farm".

Farms are not bad. I farm RWZ on my Fire/SS when I have nothing to do. Yes, I run beck and fourth killing Rikti over and over...O...M.....G!!!!

Farmin is not bad. It is the results of farming that can cause problems. Power leveling to eBay characters, RMT, and that type of stuff. The solution is not to stop farming however, it is to stop these unwanted results.

I dropped Burn around I4 and have not looked back. I have seen it used effective to clear out minions and fire vulnerable LT's before the patch drops.

As noted Fire/SS is a beast of a damage dealer. It is a very solo oriented build that you can easily sustain yourself. Higher levels really take off with double stacking of Rage on top of Fiery Embrace.

Some general notes.

I recommend Hasten to help FootStomp, Consume, and Healing Flames cycle faster. I tend to throttle my other attacks back to keep my endurance usage in check. Jab and Brawl with some procs in them make for a fun and low endurance chain should the blue bar dip too low.

You will want Knockback mitigation. Some take Acro, others slot IO's. I did both. It is not 100% but as long as you can deal with the times you are on your back life will be easier.

The Pyre EPP pairs very well with Fire/SS. I recommend trying Melt Armor if you can fit it in. A nice debuff that works great right before a Foot Stomp. Some prefer FireBall, and it is a good choice as well. I am actually looking to try and fit Fireball into my build as well.

Tough from the Fighting pool will make life a bit easier and let you slot Res sets.

I have AA in Boxing for the bonuses.

For Jab I have Crushing Impact and the Kinetic Crash +Chance of Knockdown bonus. It triggers often enough to allow some good juggling with Foot Stomp and Haymaker. When I had Punch it was even more fun

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Fire/SS/Pyre A great solo combo.

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This.

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The only place I think a Shield/SS/Pyre would do better is in pure AoE damage. While nice for larger spawns (The types you find in farms) you lose a large amount of solo capability that Fire offers.

Team farm I would vote Shield/SS/Pyre but for a solo damage tank it is very hard to beat Fire/SS/Pyre.

Fire/SS/Pyre A great solo combo.

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Calash: Yes, Hand Clap sucks. No, I don't think it sucking is a good thing. I don't think giving SS a Fault clone is the answer, though. That would be trading in a hand grenade for a nuclear bomb in terms of potency.


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I tend to feel it is less of sucking and more of being made redundant due to Foot Stomp. I can see where you are going with the potential of being overpowered however. A Shield/SS/Energy build would be juggling mobs for hours even before building for high recharge (Shield Charge, Foot Stomp, Hand Clap, Energy Torrent, Repeat). Drop Hasten into that mix and you have a Melee controller.

Changing it to Knockdown would be a buff so we should look at ways to balance that within the power.

IMHO, here is what I would love to see.

Range increased
Increased Recharge
Knockdown
Mag 1 stun.

The numbers would need some work but you could turn it into something similar to Shield Charge where it acts as an active Alpha mitigation tool.

All of this is academic however since I don't have room in my build for Fireball, let alone a buffed Handclap

Is balancing a set, any set, by creating a useless or extremely situation power really a good method of balance?

May as well just take the power out and call it balanced in that case.

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You know if you use Taunt they run right back to you when you knock them away.

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Yes, and I also know the magnitude of both the Gauntlet taunt and stun in the power. On a good team the time for the mobs to get back up, dust off, and run back into range of me is longer than it would have taken for the team to finish them off.

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Most AOE's aren't so limited that hand clap will knock all of them out of an AoE's range.

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I would disagree with "Most". Many would have there effectiveness reduced once the mobs scattered. Having played a Warshade I know how much they like very tight groups of mobs. Scattering also reduces the effects of cones.

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When they are on their backs they aren't attacking.

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This is where the power becomes redundant with Footstomp. With FS I can keep the mobs on their backs, next to me, and deal damage

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Most melee characters have more def/res at range then they do within melee range.

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Debatable but pointless when you are talking of tanks and aggro auras. For maximum aggro management I want the mobs well in my aura range as well as within range for as many Gauntlet based attacks as possible. If a Melee toon can not handle Melee damage then there is a serious problem.

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If you are really worried about dispersing a group, you could strategically place yourself when you use the power to knock opponents into a corner or up against a wall.

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Useless in an open world map. This also counters what I believe is a more important Tank strategy, namely turning the mobs away from your team to eliminate Cone damage. In an ideal position you end up on the far side of the group looking back at your team. Handclap would send the mobs into your squishies.

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I just wish knockback did damage

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While it would be nice and fit thematically I doubt Tanks would get much benefit.

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This video will explain all.

(no, it's not a Rick Roll)
(yes, you may wish it was...)

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And when the aliens come to destroy our world they will use that video as the reason why.

And I will agree with them...