BrandX
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[QUOTE=Memphis_Bill;3265819]Quote:What? that someone disagrees with you, therefore it's bad? I said imo, Energize's change completely changes the point of the power. Yeah, it still does it's old effect, but I wouldn't be using it for it's old effect either, as Power Sink keeps me from needing to. *shrug*Originally Posted by BrandX
Gee, look, even your own explanation *completely changes the point of the power.*
Yes, actually, in this case there is. What I'd *REALLY* like to say at this point would get heavily modded. Believe me, with my current opinion - that quote was *not* misused.
My point stands. And while I don't care for that one suggestion, I personally don't see how it breaks the cottage rule, and you haven't shown me how it does, when it keeps the same effects, only now you need to die and click a power to use them, instead of always on protection (again...look at IH being turned from Toggle to Click and Energize going from Conserve Power to the Heal (its main use now) with an END Discount).
Now, if that change was made however, I don't see how it could ever go back or be changed from being a self-rez power. This is true.
But then, Energize can't lose it's +Heal anymore. Though, IH could (theoritically) go back to being a toggle, as that was it's only change. -
Quote:You'd put them into a slot in the attacks.Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Understandable, but that wasn't exactly my concern. The question was "where would you put these damage adding IOs"?
Again, I apologize if I'm being snobbish or nit-picky, it's just that I've been trying to use a dev's view of the game lately to consider these kinds of things.
So for example. You want all your claws to have the toxic damage, you'd have to put one of these IOs into one of your 1-6 slots in the power, for every claw attack.
Personally I'm fine with this. Would this mean, you might lose out on the +Range or +Melee Defense, since you're not slotting a full Mako's or Touch of Death? Yes. But you are getting that extra effect you want.
Seeing as how I find most sets 6 IO slotted tend to be throw away bonuses (not all, just most) or "Yeah, it's nice to have, but I don't really need/care for it", I'm personally okay with this idea.
Also, I like the idea of having non-set, 100% chance for damage IOs (I'd make them so the various effects are decently common, so concepts can be fleshed out easy enough).
They would do the equivalent in added DPS as a normal proc (or maybe even a Purple Proc)...so, the fact that they're 100% shouldn't be a problem, and I'd likely say they start at level 5 (or always level 5) recipes. -
Quote:I say let the people dream. They just need to remember, they may be dreaming bigger than what is actually there.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
At the same panel in which the I20 pre-Beta was announced there was a huge powerpoint graphic that explained it was to test the End Game content.
Divorced from that information, the idea of a signed NDA led people to dream up all sorts of wild ideas about "What could possibly be the reason for A SIGNED NDA??!!!!!!"
The answer: A head start on testing End Game content.
Further speculation is unwarranted unless you want to speculate on what 'End Game content' is.
Ie....Hope for the best, expect the worst!
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Quote:My reasoning...Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I just gotta ask: why do people want the Shadow Shard as a co-op zone when there are unexplored regions of it that could be given exclusively to villains? I do like co-op, but I also want to see the lore of the vast shadow shard expanded on, especially the garden of memories now that we have doppelganger tech.
As a side note: who'd like to see an old (incomplete) write-up I made for a Japan zone(s)?
There is only one shadow shard dimension. It's not like Earth with different timelines/dimensions. The Shadowshard is one linear line.
With that in mind, how would heroes keep villains out of certain sections of it and vice versa?
Next, I want a way to get any villain I make, to beable to get access to the Shadow Shard at level 1 (or 2) and get the weapon skin!
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Quote:In my experience, I can say, the difference between running a toggle non-stop, and hitting that Heal everytime it's recharged is going to drain my end bar just as fast if not faster.Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
But where would you slot such a thing?
If it's automatically placed like a temp power, it might be a bit frustrating it you want your original abilities back (though one fore normal damage could be done), and then there's the idea of the elemental damages being used for alt builds and to represent RP concepts.
But again, that assumes this is automatically added to you upon crafting, but again: where would you slot it?
Beyond that, there's also the fact that this is not just for elemental weapon damage, but also new and different powers for sets like the assault rifle (which is horribly bogged down by having too many concepts in one gun), and the like, so it also opens up the possible door for your alternate option of stalkers being able to get RTTC and tankers, scrappers, and brutes getting reconstruction.
Though the slippery slope with attempting to change armors is that armors sets are not designed with the thought of them being a bunch of individual powers. They're designed as being a whole unit/set in mind, and are balanced as such.
Like RTTC's to-hit debuff stacks with heightened senses, adding greater survivability for scrappers, tankers, and brutes.
On the flip-side, stalkers aren't just denied RTTC because taunt auras might be a bad idea for them, but also because the loss of quick recovery might make this additional toggle, in an already fairly toggle heavy set, too draining for the post-AS scrapping.
Edit: Sorry if I'm sounding like a snob or anything, just trying to explain why I mentioned avoiding alt selections for armor sets.
And I'm not saying alternate power selections for every armor power. But seeing as how Stalker version of WP has Reconstruction, I don't see why the others can't have it as an alternate option.
I believe the math said Reconstruction was equal to 3 targets in range. So, while Recontruction may be the better choice for low mob counts, it would become weaker on massive groups of enemies.
You know what would work for Assault rifle...same set, but done as power gauntlets. All those effects in pop up weapon form on the arms...sweetness (and I can think of one player who would love that, so I'd think there's others who would love it as well...hell...I might like it!)
As for my idea of craftable IOs that can add a bit of damage flavor. You're right, it won't change Flamethrower into an Acid Spray. HOWEVER, add in a +Toxic Damage IO, and one can just as easily say (well they can now, regardless of what the actual damage is) it's an Acid Spray and the fire damage is just the burning sensation of the acid (+Toxic Damage). -
Super Reflexes has the best DDR in the game.
What you're SR is falling victim to, is it's weakness, lots of +TOHIT.
Add on some Defense Debuff, and yeah, you're in a world of hurt if you rely on just Defense.
Every Armor set has enemies it will dread. Then again, every set has enemies it really shines against. -
Quote:Yes, but figure this was jury rigging FASERIP into CoH, so a bit of changes occur. So Health/Karma would be irrevalent.Originally Posted by The_Dude73
I suppose, but FASERIP is only supposed to represent raw physical attributes. Your health score is calculated based off of FASE, and Karma (luck) is based off of RIP. The powers you have or choose don't affect that, unless of course your power is superstrength, then of course you'd have a high strength score.
There are other modifiers based on powers and talents. For instance, if you have a unique weapon specialization, such as Cap's shield, Wolverine's claws, or Daredevil's Billy club, you'd get a +2CS (Column Shift since the rolls were on a table with columns), so if Wolverine attacked with his claws he'd be attacking with a score of Monstrous (75) instead of Incredible (40). Certain martial arts give different bonuses (there are martial arts A-E), boxing, wrestling, they give fighting bonuses. Things like gymnastics and tumbling give agility bonuses, etc.
To put this in COH terms with an /SR scrapper, you might have a high agility score for a human, like Remarkable (30) or Incredible (40), but your powers, like focused senses, evasion, etc. would provide with an ability to roll for your success in the Amazing (50) or Monstrous (75) range, but your raw score doesn't change. That's how people should be representing their characters IMO.
And like I said, while I love Steelclaw's attempt at it I also didn't come out to how my concept for my KM/WP Stalker works (with MN strength being the big one).
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Quote:This is true, but in CoH terms, I'd say that's more of a concept thing than anything else.Originally Posted by The_Dude73
I understand where you're coming from, but I would argue that you need raw attributes. An example of where this would come into play in COH is if your blue bar runs out and your toggles drop. Of course, the scores such people would assign themselves would be largely subjective, but that's part of the fun.
Of course it's hard to account for advancement, but bear in mind that in CoH, as your character advances so does the level of your enemies. Some of the above characters falling against a mob of Malta in the game would be the comics equivalent of Thor getting whipped by a tough group of Hydra.
CoH doesn't allow one to make Thor's/Hulk, outside of their concepts/description.
What CoH does, and tend to put people at the height of Spider-Man, Wolverine, Dare Devil, Batman, ect...
Heroes who would generally beable to take on mass of badguys, but could be taken down by them just as well.
For concepts like Thor, it would need to be a group of other gods really or at least a group of Spider-Man's/Dare Devil's...ect...ect. -
Shadow Shard and Oroborous revamped to become co-op zones, with Shadow Shard having an optional PvP option when you enter it, so you can actually have Hero vs Villain fights, if you want to.
Little pop-up that says "want to enable to PvP for this zone"
That's it.
Those who don't want to PvP, can click no, and use the zone as strictly PvE zone, never being touched by another player.
But this would also mean it wouldn't have the usual PvP Zone DR in it
Then a revamp of the Shadow Shard TFs to make them more enjoyable to the masses, and go to town! -
I wouldn't mind a lower timer on costume changes. When doing lots of corrections to a bunch of costumes, I know I find it annoying.
Can I live with it, yes. Would I like to see it lowered a bit, yuppers. -
[QUOTE=Memphis_Bill;3265694]Quote:Original Power: GroundedOriginally Posted by BrandX
I kept everything that grounded does now, in the new power, changed it from a passive to a click (which doesnt break anything, as we've both pointed out), and added a mechanic to it.[/qutoe]
No, you did not.
You took an airplane and replaced it with a ham sandwich. You then stuck a toothpick with a little plastic airplane on the top and insisted it's the same thing.
Original power - Conserve Power. Purpose: END discount.
New power - Energize. Purpose: END discount and heal.
Same power with an added component.
Original power: Burn.
Purpose: PBAOE damage patch.
First revision: PBAOE damage patch with fear.
New revision: PBAOE damage patch.
Same power with a component added, then removed.
But like I said, you just refuse to get it. So, let me just sum up by saying "Here's your sign." I'm not going to keep trying to pound understanding into a stone.
Purpose: +Resist/Mez Protection
First Revision: Self Rez with +Resist/Mez Protection
What I did was (and really I don't care for the suggestion in the other thread...personally I'd rather see the tier 9, become a self rez that turns you into that electric gremlin without a huge end drop at the end, than what was suggested in the other thread)...take all the changes they've done to powers and shown it can be done (not likely to be done).
Now if Grounded was added to Static (as per that original suggestion), I don't think anyone would really care about the change (I wouldn't...it would either free up a power choice or allow me to keep any set bonuses I originally slotted for).
The change could be thought of as bad my many, but then IH went from an always on power, to not always on (even with massive +RCH).
So I say the change can happen, and still not break the cottage rule, as any change I mentioned, still falls in line with all the other changes they've ever done to powers.
Perma to Non Perma (Instant Healing). Primary Function to Secondary Function (and Energize's END Discount became it's secondary function...at least in my opinion, as I never needed the END Discount on my /ELA). Ect...ect...
And Bill, no need to get rude. And you totally totally misused the quote. Cottage Rule is no where near as obvious to deal with, as the joke that goes along with it.
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Quote:I kept everything that grounded does now, in the new power, changed it from a passive to a click (which doesnt break anything, as we've both pointed out), and added a mechanic to it.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, you're right - WP and Regen don't, I'm used to Fire and DA which do.
Still violates the cottage rule.
Instant Healing went from toggle to click. It still has the same function. No violation.
*sigh* OK. Very last time I'm saying this, because if you still don't get it, I give up.
Changing the Basic Function of a power is what violates the cottage rule. Not changing it to a click. Not changing secondary effects. Not making it pink instead of green. Not changing its order in the powerset list.
Going from a power which provides multiple resistances to a self rez - a completely different function - breaks the cottage rule. Yes, even if you put resistances in the self rez. You are changing the primary purpose of the power. You're changing an airplane to a ham sandwich. The two are NOT interchangeable.
Energize went from a purely END discount power, to a primarily +Health power, with an END Discount property. Yeah, people like that END discount power, but it's used mainly for the heal. And CP was often skipped before that heal was added, because it wasn't needed by most players who used the set.
As long as the self-rez kept all it's Resists/Mez Protection abilities, you keep it within doing the same thing it did before. The change would be in it's duration, as it goes from a passive always on power to a click when your dead power.
Now, one might not like the change (and again, I never said I wanted the change), but all the types of changes to the power, that would need to be done, has been done to powers before, and thus, keep it from breaking any cottage rule. -
I'm going to have to say, I think a lot of this can be done through an alternate route, without all the headache.
Craftable Invention Origin Enhancements!
Not linked to sets at all! If you slot one of these enhancements, you will not be helping your set bonuses at all.
What instead you'd be doing is adding a component to your attack.
Yeah, you can grab that Chance for Fire Damage IO that belongs to an IO set.
OR you can grab that 100% Chance for Fire Damage IO, that does roughly the equivalent amount of damage as the proc (AVG damage of the proc becomes the damage of this new IO)...but isn't limited to any one offensive power.
Do this with the various effects.
Now that Claw users can always set his foes on fire, since they have the Fire Damage IOs!
Still want a Reconstruction Option for RTTC though ^_^ -
Naaa...the Marine Core Sniper would just have the talents in his choosen career path, to move him up multiple ranks.
Likely...Training: Rifles +1 CS (column shift) and Training: Specialized - Sniper (+2 CS).
That just put someone with a GD Agility score up to IN Agility Score for shooting purposes.
What it would fail to do however, is account for the Olympic Level Gymnast who couldn't hit the broadside of the barn
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I think it looks like a fun movie
Not going to say it looks to be the best film ever. However, I would think most would be complaining about another movie in 3D. -
Quote:Now, maybe it's just been me, but I'd like to refute that my WP's self rez made it anything but untouchable.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No. The basic purpose of Grounded is to be an auto-power that continually provides the following:
Energy resist
Negative energy resist
Knockback resist
End drain resist
Immob resist.
The basic purpose of a Rez is to bring yourself back from death. As a click power, those resists would not be in affect unless and until that power was clicked - and they'd be secondary to the power's primary purpose of rezzing yourself. Given that every self-rez in the game makes you untouchable for several seconds, a resist would be somewhat *pointless* there. And removing the untouchable for the sake of having the resists do something worthwhile would make it one of the least liked self-rezzes out there. Rez...faceplant. It did not make one untouchable at all.
Okay...self rez can offer all that in the self rez as mag 1 for the KB/Immobile Protection and low resists, and make it a self rez.
I'll have to disagree with it's point being a passive power, however, as Instant Healing would still be a toggle if that was the case.
Now, I'm not saying I want the change or not, just saying lots of changes could be done for that suggestion, and still fit it becoming a self-rez without breaking any cottage rules. -
Quote:Now see, for those who came in after the Burn change, and as many said they used it before the recent change to it, the component of Burn was to fear the enemies (or they in how they used it).Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Extremely. Like the first major patch of the game. With a vastly different dev team. (Fold Space pulled, Wormhole moved up, new power - Singularity.) Issue 1, if not before. And again, for contrast, look what happened when they tried to do it with PPPs. They learned it was NOT a good idea. ESPECIALLY several years into the game.
What is the basic purpose of Burn? Not fear. Damage. Has that changed? No. The add in component has. Therefore, no violation. The *basic purpose* of the power - damage - has not changed. It has nothing to do with what can or can't be slotted, or the order it's in.
Flipping it around, if the Devs added damage to Illusion's Spectral Terror, the cottage rule would not be in violation. The power would still be doing an AOE Fear. If they *replaced* the fear with damage, it would be.
Those would be people with no clue as to what the cottage rule (do not change the basic purpose of a power) is.
Basic Principle of Grounded resists! If it was turned into a self-rez (like was mentioned in another thread), and that self-rez granted you some resistance, basic principle is still in play! -
Quote:While you wouldn't see those numbers normally, it also wasn't impossible to get one of your stats to Monstrous (if not multiple Monstrous ranking in the case of Robots/Aliens (Alternate Dimension) characters), not to mention what power picks could do.Originally Posted by The_Dude73
LOL @ some of these scores. I used to play this game frequently with my fellow comic nerds.
Bear in mind that if you have "normal" humans, ie, Batman, then there are limits.
The max that a human character can have is
Fighting = Amazing (50)
Agility = Incredible (40)
Strength = Excellent (20)
Endurance = Remarkable (30)
Reason = Amazing (50)
Intuition = Incredible (40)
Psyche = I forget.
All these guys on here with Monstrous and Unearthly fighting levels are the equivalent of gods with centuries worth of experience in frequent combat. Captain America is topped out at Amazing (50), Daredevil and Wolverine are at Incredible (40). Spider-Man is only at Remarkable (30).
If you have armor or technology based characters, you generally have two scores in FASERIP, one suited up, one without. For instance, Tony Stark would have two scores in FASE and Intuition.
Such as:
Fighting = Typical (6)/Remarkable (30)
I don't know if that's really what his is, it's just an example.
I hope the CoH universe never invades the Marvel one, the Marvel guys would be way underpowered to face this onslaught.
Steelclaws little jury rig is fun for what it does But figure it takes into account the powers as well.
Usually, the stats might have been lower in the PnP game, but you'd usually have Powers/Talents that pushed you into the next (or next two) rankings, which I think Steelclaw was going for in his conversion
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Quote:Not that I'm against alternate power choices (I'd rather have a clickie heal than RTTC on my WP Scrapper). I think you are wrong on one thing...Originally Posted by redtornado
Alternate Power choices:
I've been thinking of this exact same workaround for some time as well. That alternate power choices could be offered that would add variety and utility to a power set.
What got me thinking about it was /Devices. Devices power set is vastly out-classed by Traps and balance should be addressed. But, how can Devices be improved(short of getting rid of it...grrr)? Devices could be anything really, why should it be hampered with unpopular(mostly) and unused(mostly) powers because an entire two or three players(morons) swear by the power and would be devastated(mostly deservedly) if their favoritetest(pathetically) power were to be removed for something that is actually useful and that most others would use, so the 'cottage rule' gets trotted out and nothing helpful gets done.
I have many /Devices toons, but they all come out nearly the same, skipping the same useless powers(which, I know, many would say is the entire secondary, I can't help liking the the set, sorry). The two that stick out for me in the set are Taser and Smokebomb. What if at the same level as Taser was offered a Flash Bang Grenade power as an Alternative Power Choice, with a 50ft range, 8ft. radius, 5 targets max, mag2, 10 second Stun? And/OR at the same level Smokebomb is offered, a Concusion Grenade with a 50ft. range, 15ft radius, 16 targets max, mag3, 15 second Stun(or mag2 again but with a 30second -to hit as well), could be alternately chosen.
I also have considered Alternate Power choices for Masterminds. Most people skip MM personal attacks because they are so weaksauce, and rightly so. But, what if alternate power choices were made available for those.
Consider Ninjas(stop laughing, please). What if the Archery personal attacks(which desperately need improvement) had Shuriken alternate power choices? Slicing Shuriken(with a -def -speed), Poison Shuriken(with a -rech/regen and toxic damage), and Star Shower(with a short cone -def -speed) were offered alternatively. Or Katana(Ninja-to) attacks instead? Or, even a personal choice combo of the above? Think about the level of customization that could come from that. It would be glorious!
I have seen many worries forumites suggest about how much effort that(or ANYTHING new) would require, with balancing, animation, and artwork, but it should not be too hard to accomplish if done one power and one set at a time. This should be done(right after they improve[make even marginally useful] the original power).
Alternate Power choices ftw!
Traps outclassing Devices. They're two completely different sets, for two different ATs.
Traps can't outclass Devices, as Blasters don't have access to Traps.
What you could say is, Devices is outclassed by every other Blaster Secondary. -
Quote:Powers have been changed before. Wet Ice, a power I remember that once could be slotted with Defense.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The ORDER of powers has nothing to do with it. The powers themselves still perform the same basic task. The order of powers is not touched on by the cottage rule. The purpose of the power is.
If I move Taunt to the second power slot in a set for whatever reason, Taunt still Taunts. The power it swaps places with still does whatever it does. No violation occurs.
If I make Taunt into a placate, that does violate it (for what I'd hope would be glaringly obvious reasons.)
The cottage rule states that the basic purpose of a power will not change. It does not restrict adding to it. It does not affect the order within the set. If you're going to argue it, at least know what it is.
And while it escapes me right now, I can swear there were examples of powers being changed that went against the cottage rule, before. Admittedly, this was earlier in the game.
And untill recently, I can remember my Burn never fearing anything, and then all of a sudden it started fearing 99% of the enemies, then it stopped fearing them (so that's...add a component, keep it in, then lose the component).
Admittedly, you could never slot for additional fear in Burn, but the fear component was there.
As for my post, when people have suggested changing the order of a power, people have said "cottage rule" before.
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Quote:And as stated, the first basic rule was "make sure it can still be slotted with what people can slot the power with now"Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The Cottage Rule states that the basic purpose of a power will not be changed. Again, see Conserve Power -> Energize, as well as what happened with the PPP "replacements." (Which ended up with the PPPs getting five instead of four power choices.) My discussion of sets is relevant more to player reaction to this sort of change (aside from what seems like a heavy dislike of self-rez powers in melee sets, especially for tanks - see any number of arguments about Rises of the Phoenix, for instance.)
Grounded can be slotted with Resistance Enhancements.
And moving the Resists + Mez Protections to Static wouldn't really change anything lose anyone anything, and in fact, would save them power pick, which could be used for a self-rez or a totally different power in general.
But I still see the problem with it being a tier 8 rez that effects the enemy, unlike all the other tier 8 rez's that only effect the player.
So I don't see it as happening anyways. -
Quote:Well of course people can just swap out their costume slot with many saved costume slots, but some of us would like a wider range of saved files for RP reasons and some such.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Question, why could you just swap out a saved costume at the tailor?
So long as the cost of these slots was such that it paid the costs of development plus, sure. But I don't see the point honestly. -
I want to see the Council become mutant hating, aggro onthe mutant origin heroes first baddies!
Yelling such things as "MUTANT SCUM!" "WE HATE MUTANTS!" and having a mutant origin ups your aggro
Mutant origin says how people fear mutants, lets see it in action! -
Quote:The devs have changed the order of powers before (Taunt) and other things, that usually gets a "cottage rule" response from the player base.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You may feel that way, but you'd be incorrect.
You want reasoning behind invoking a cottage rule? Two examples:
1. Someone's proposing a change to electric armor in another thread, *today,* which gets rid of the armor completely (moving what it does to another power) and putting in a self rez.
Think about all that would affect with *every* Electric armor user out there.
2. The devs tried "Eh, just replace the power" once, when they were revamping PPPs. They did just flat out replace powers people were taking. The response from the players when they replaced "useless" powers?
... and that's putting it lightly. Think they'll *ever* do that again? Before answering, notice that the PPPs (and now APPs) have *five* powers instead of four.
And if you check that Electric Armor thread, I mentioned how to keep it from breaking the cottage rule, it really wasn't that hard.
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Quote:The cootage rule can easily be worked around on this one, by giving the self-rez a minor +Resist component (like say +1%), so you can still slot the resist sets.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yes, it got a self heal - Energize - which was added to (note that it didn't *replace,* but the heal was added on top of) conserve power. Yes, the name was changed. It does, however, remain an END Discount - just with an extra ability now.
Similiarly, Energy Aura had a heal added to its END drain.
Doing what the OP wants? Not only is it a violation of the cottage rule, but the result *will* be to PO ElA users as you've now rendered at least one set of enhancements useless (which, if slotted the way you'll generally hear suggested for resist sets, means you're actually dropping their *defense* some, among other things - not to mention the time and INF to get the sets,) forcing a respec, but replacing it with a self-rez which many find useless. (Look at the arguments about Dark and Fire's self-rezzes, especially in the Tanker boards - I don't mind them, I tend to take them, but this *would* seriously irritate others.)
/unsigned many times over.
The problem I see here, isn't the idea of adding a self-rez to the set, but that they'd be adding a self-rez that effects the enemy at tier 8, when the other self-rez's that do that, are tier 9s.