Bonker

Assuming all the [censored] and whining about what it is now is doing no good whatsoever and that the *revert to i12* calls are falling on deaf ears, how do we proceed?

Knowing now what they don't listen to, what's left? Where do we go from here?

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I just wonder if everyone who prefers i12 style pvp over this new pvp, if we all made a petition would castle change it back?. With hard numbers of player base disapproving of the new pvp?


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Wouldn't achieve anything, pvp'ers would need at least 150x the population to get him to even consider their opinion on the same level as his. And the vast majority would need to speak up then.
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Castle has to be a reasonable man, i just refuse to believe he's this stubborn on purpose.

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On purpose? no. I believe his ego is so powerful that even when completely wrong it protects him and recreates the history of events (or memories). In this case I believe that he believes i13 pvp is a success and was and is a good idea.

Ok, the fact that Southpark (if you haven't watched the Kanye West episode it is pretty interesting) fits perfectly aside:

Him being reasonable or stubborn has nothing to do with it. For them to admit what a massive mistake it was would be a huge black mark and could become a PR nightmare down the road (if not at the time). It would allow anyone questioning the devs to cite "i13 pvp" as precedent of them having no clue. And they would be right.

On top of that a lot of resources went into the rebuild. Yes any intelligent management team would take steps to ensure it was a good idea, but for w/e reason they took it upon themselves and went full speed ahead with a "we know best" attitude. The results speak for themselves. Hopefully in the future they will be more careful when handing out opportunities to people. Hopefully they will at least use a pvp consultant (doesn't have to be from cox) in the future (if another similar scenario ever arises in any of their careers) rather than putting game mechanic design decisions in the hands of a pve player lol and a pve dev(s). It has been a great example of why a race car driver doesn't automaticallyequate to being a great pilot. Pve =! pvp, so in them assuming pve experts knew what was needed was either ego, shortsightedness, or just plain stupidity acting.

Based on what I've seen of the pve'er(s) and the dev(s) involved in the process I'm confident in stating it was ego at work, which led to stupidity governing decisions and resulted in a package that can never be integrated with pve at all in the future (ie pvp MA missions, omg what a crazy idea!!!), so in other words shortsightedness.

Pulling the plug at this point likely isn't even a distant option. A smart management team would work as hard as possible within the budget and without compromising higher ranking projects to band-aid w/e they can. Which is exactly what they are doing, albiet at the speed of a tortoise.

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When i13 was in closed beta, we pointed out what wasnt really good about it and he just seemed to ignore us. Then that whole debacle with the "things you like positive about i13 pvp" (which was like 3 pages long) And "The things you don't like about i13 pvp" (which was like 100 or so pages long)

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There is practically no point doing anything other than pointing out bugs to them. Every idea they add it strongly supported by a large dose of "we know best". Of course that is one of the most prominent signs of mismanagement, but what are you going to do?

Those threads were put up for nothing more than a place to vent; let out your anger and get over it rather than internalizing it and probably quitting, and a place to pat them on the back. *If they read either of them it would be the one grovelling at their feet and if by some chance they read through the complaints one it all fell on ears already ringing with "we know best".

The sad thing is that as Arcanaville pointed out to me in a different thread it wasn't just Castle at work. I'm not sure if she said it to reassure me or not, but all it did was make me really sad because instead of one person with no clue, you are dealing with a pile of them. Or they are all just "yes men". Both are depressing.

So imagine first how hard it is to change someone's mind who's ego is so powerful it will completely alter his perceived reality to support his decisions. Pretty hard right?

Now add to that a group of coworkers that are either doing the same thing, or are just patting him on the back saying he is king of the world. Did it get easier or harder to change their mind?

Now add a gaggle of sycophantic pve'ers acting like he/they walk on water and crap out cinnamon fresh rolls saying the pvp changes are great and they will definitely pvp now (though they never did). At this point, inappropriate terrorism jokes aside, you are likely going to need a bomb to affect any change.

An "old rules" arena option is the best to hope for, but even that is unlikely as even that is an admission of error. Right now you can shut of DR for example, but that falls under things like "tactical start" in terms of user options. Allowing a full reversal to i12 probably isn't going to happen.

edit:
tl:dr version:
-everything the devs add is backed by a strong sense of "we know best"
-knowing pve =! knowing pvp and they were idiots to assume it did.
-it's hard to change minds when they don't listen
-hope for an "i12" arena option, but I doubt it will happen.

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this whole reply is full of SOOO much win, i don't know where to start. you hit every single nail on the head and hammered them down so far, my head is still spinning! GREAT show!

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No.

Though he did indeed hit every nail, he did it with the hammer that even he knows is bound to insure every one of those nails missed their mark by a county, if not a country or two.

Here's why: He claims Castle, surrounded by a buncha synchophants, are so full of themselves and their appointed *king of what's best for us all* are quite set in their opinion that *they know best*.

Such egomaniacs are not likely to respond well to criticism, no? We've even seen evidence to support your claim, ala the closed beta and numerous threads in this forum on how to improve pvp; all of which were completely ignored. And by completely, I don't mean a few or most. I mean I challenge you to find a single aspect of pvp i13 that could be even remotely twisted to fit into any suggestion from people that know/knew wtf they were talking about when it comes to pre-i13 pvp.

The whole contention of his post was that they just will not listen. They know better. They are so full of themselves, so sure they are right, that they will never listen to consenting ideas.

Do you think that calling them names, being purely negative, calling their ego into question and simply saying all hope is lost is the way forward? Enough to quote and attach your name to someone that does nothing but be negative?

Do you think the egomaniacs you would make them out to be would or can hear you? You do realize you're paying to play *their* game, yes?

They make the decisions. You pay them for those decisions.

I respected the PvP'ers who left so much more when they stayed gone. Several of them I've seen back in game, [censored] up a storm. Important to note: many of them have taken to the new rules and continue to pwn, despite the [censored].

Was i13 a bad effing idea? Oh yeah. Lotsa wasted dev resources when they were hurting for that. 8 months to chase the part of your audience away you were trying to *improve* upon? Ouch.

Lighthouse's now infamous comment and departure aside, I think they know how majestically they [censored] up.

Or perhaps not. But if they haven't caught the clues from their pvp-playerbase who have left, en masse. Or one of their own who called it like it was and ultimately quit over it, do you really think that calling them names, however eloquently, is going to solve anything?

Do I have an approach that will get through to them? Obviously not.

But do I know that the approach you're quoting will not work?

Yes.

Yes I do.

Global Name: @bonker
Home Server: Freedom


1. On a scale from 1 to 10, please rate how frequently you engage in the Player vs. Player aspect of City of Heroes/Villains. 1 being "not at all" and 10 being "almost exclusively".

8. Daily.

2. When PvPing, my favorite archetype is:
B. Defender
C. Controller
G. Corrupter
H. Stalker

3. On a scale from 1 to 10, please rate the competitiveness of PvP on your home server. 1 being "not competitive at all" and 10 being "highly competitive".

Used to be 10, now maybe 5. 6 on a good day.


4. Which do you prefer?
B. Duo/Team Arena PvP
D. Duo/Team Zone PvP


5. On a scale from 1 to 10, please rate the openness of your home server's PvP community. 1 being "not open, rough on new players" and 10 being "extremely open, perfect for new players".

Seems like nothing but new players in zone anymore, so 10.


6. On a scale from 1 to 10, please rate your level of understanding in regards to the i13 PvP system changes. 1 being "no understanding" and 10 being "complete clarity".

10.


7. Which incentive interests you the most?
D. Real Items (CoH/CoV related), T-Shirts, Mugs, Buttons, Figurines


8. TRUE or FALSE. I feel that the PvPEC and my home server rep(s) are having a positive impact on the PvP community.

TRUE. I see they are trying in the face of a s**tstorm of negativity, and I respect that.

9. Which of the following appeals to you most?
B. PvP League - Teams of X are set to compete with other similar teams throughout a "season" in various PvP events, ending with a playoff bracket.

(but D is an intersting idea and I'd be willing to give it a try)

10. Additional Comments

Not gonna parrot all the other comments that I agree with. The recent changes to PvP all but killed it and didnt really have any positive aspect as far as I can tell. That said, I've always respected what the PvPEC was trying to accomplish, perhaps now more than ever, so I offer my support.

PvP kickball. 8 members. Real fighting. 10 min matches. 4 matches total.

Bout an hour, all told, including forming.

5 drops across all members. Maybe 50 kills total.

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I just think a kick button is too easy to abuse or ineffective.

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Not in the hands of us remaining few who have honor, dignity and respect for our fellow players.

but...

I do personally feel a "kick" button would be too harsh a punishment so perhaps we could have a "time out" button instead.

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omg

Fascinating project and write up. Well done.

Present roster of 50's with a few more on the way up:

Belching Bonker: sonic/therm Corr.
Bandito Bonker: EM/nin Stalker.
Blizz Bonker: Ice/kin corr: One of my favorite toons, but I dont play him nearly as often as I'd like to simply cuz hes built to be a damn good solo'er and powerhouse dmg with mitigation, but I can only ever get on teams at 50 as the *farm kin* who SB's and stays safe . . . TMI, srry
Bulldoze Bonker: fire/psi dom. About 1.3 Billion worth of IO's on this toon. hella fun in his element (farms).
Bunker Bonker: merc/trap MM. My first vill 50. Maxxed him to 40 within 3 weeks after i6. Crawled him to 50 after that cuz i was too busy playing other toons.
Badonka Bonker: fire/storm corr. invite. enter mish. "buffs?" blah. freezing rain. rain of fire. fireball. lightning storm. tornado. hurricane. fire blast. gale (just fer lulz) . . . fire blast. "next mish pls?"
Biohazard Bonker: Fire/Rad corr.
Big Bad Bully Bonker: clawls/regen stalker. Great toon. Mostly retired, tho (thnx i13 pvp).
Bandaid Bonker: emp/rad defender. Was my favorite blue-side toon for pvp, now retired.
Baby Bonker: ill/rad troller.
Berg Bonker: ice/ice tank. best *herding* tank I've ever played.
Bazooka Bonker: AR/dev Blaster. My first 50 in the game. broken smoke grenade and WL farming ftw!
Blazing Bonker: fire/kin troller. Farms, of course.
Shadow Bonker: WS. Damn fun to play as I was levelling him, but basically been retired since he ding'd fiddy.
Burning Bonker: fire/ice tank. old skool farmer.
Blizzard Bonker: ice/storm troller.
Boneyard Bonker: Dark/Dark/Dark defender. my most underrated toon, ever. very very effective team toon, but too few people realize how awesome dark is, and can't solo fer [censored].
Barbed Bonker: spines/regen scrap. the obligatory scrapper
Peace Bonker: PB. same story as the WS.
Boulder Bonker: stone/fire tank. my blue side tf'er.

I'm sure I'm forgetting 4 or 5 on the second account, but I never play them so they dont really count.

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I contacted Bonkers via PM and I might try and work out another option so I can take Bonkers money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]Wow, that sounds really bad.

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Exactly. 1,250,000,000 is a good motivator. I want to take that monies.

I edited my other post and added your bid, Stabby.

Did I mention this before?
1,250,000,000 Influence.

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Meh. It's only digits. Never having had much interest in 5 more 50's, I was only in the running for the fun of bidding. Had I won all five spots I simply would have offered them up to SG fam-damily anyhoo.

With a concerted effort, one could have earned (and spent!) the 1.25 in the amount of time the bids have been running, if not considerably more.

Anyhoo, keep me in mind Smurph. Been a pleasure almost doin bidness witcha.

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Ok there is WAY too much money being thrown around. I'm cutting my family into some of the money and we're doing 2 teams of 6. The two teams being the Zombie Horde (1x Kin + 5 Necro/Pain) and the Army of Soldiers (3 Crab + 3 Merc/Dark). Giving my family some of the money will get enough people to play both teams at a pace that should have them at 50 by the end of February, possibly January. So that means the top 12 all pay the 12th place person's amount. That's assuming Bonkers wants to buy 5. I highly encourage you to do so.

Top 12 who would all currently pay 176M.
500M Plasma
275M Steel_Golem
252M TacticsMinusTact
251M x 5 Bonkers
199M Via PM
190M Dirae
180M Stack
176M Strawberry_Quick

Need to bid: 177M in Freedom/Virtue Influence Equivalent


Others:
175M Dumpleberry
169M Via PM
155M Hell Jumper
120M x 3 Via PM
101.25M Via PM
100M Via PM
90M - Via PM
67.5M - Iridium (unknown server)
50M - Via PM (unknown server)
13.5M - Dr. Robert
2M Falkieri

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Allrighty, still in fer 5 then. Since I never really had much interest in five new 50's, I'll be bringing a few of my SG *family* in as well.

Provided I'm still in the running when this wraps.

It's become apparent that my bids may have sort of *killed* the rest of the bidding. Was certainly never my intention.

So while I have more than the means to follow through with my bids, in the interest of fairness and fun, I'll rescind 4 of the 5 of my bids, and stick with a bid of just 1 toon for 251m.

Sorry if I sucked the fun outta the bidding.

Bid: 251 million x 5, Freedom inf (either side).

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i <3 bonker

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Apparently a lot of guys do... in bathhouses.

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LMAO!

Jealous?

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Epic potential right here.

<snip for brevity>

I just don't feel that an increase in population at the expense of actual skill and the need to coddle the lowest common demoninator will do anything at all for PvP in this game. Either bring it, or stay the [censored] home.

PvP has a DNR tag on it's toe, or its DOA.

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Could you be ANY more ignorant?

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Yes, would hardly take any effort at all, in fact. Could you smack talk more in your defense of the proposition that there should be less smack talk? Perhaps I should simply follow your example to answer the challenge?

<snip>

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THEY in turn end up having this mentality that everyone on the opposing side is like this one jerk, and so they immediately go on the offensive verbally when they zone. THEY become a jerk much as the one that verbally abused them.

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You said the same thing I did, 'cept I didn't have to resort to calling folks names to make my point.

GF

Rest snipped. Don't respond to me anymore unless you have something interesting to say, kkthnxbai.

Awesome stuff!! Love the upgrades!

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Windows my warehouse need windows to let my plants have sun light

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My base needs windows, too. So I can *accidentally* walk in front of them wearing no pants and then pretend to be embarassed when the neighbor just *happens* to be out there doing yardwork.

I hate it that those priceless little life moments just can't occur in my base. So rite nao.

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Left out the new capes that match the new patterns in the costume screenshots.

Good issue though.

I like the scrolling screenshots in the base spotlight. Is that new this week or did I miss it previously?

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That was actually a base architect spotlight, featuring several of the bases they've done. Branche is amazing and we felt like they deserved a bigger feature than just a traditional base showcase.

And yes, Mantid is amazing with finding new ways to feature pics and keep the formatting intersting week to week.

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While the costumes for the contest on Infinity were nice...

WHAT A BASE! Oh my goodness what a beautiful room! Has that base been featured yet?! Clouds in the sky, tree lined park... wow. A square with yellow I'm guessing is the 'sun' and a pool below... that is just incredible.

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Good Call! Let me see if I can find out who's base that was and get a tour and some pics for a full feature.

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Hey here is one for ya...

How about Veteran Players being able to choose their Vet emblems for SG emblems? I would love to have a captured Council flag hanging in my trophy room.

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I think the Banners (and other logo items) should be reworked to be crafted items. If we had an interface similar to the costume creator, we could choose colors and logos easily, and have them stick to the one item without concern of the emblem resetting.
That would make it easy for a Vet to craft an "epic logo" item without letting non-vets get those logos thru actual SG emblems in SG Mode.

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I know the idea has been presented before, but I really like this idea.

/signed

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Here's one I don't recall seeing in any of the lists.

I would like to be able to put personal items back into storage while editing the base so that I can empty the extra rooms from my small hidden plot, then size back down to the tiny hidden plot to reclaim the prestige for the small hidden plot and use it combined with prestige I have now to buy the hidden plot, then just take the personal items back out of storage and remake the rooms they were in.

The way things work currently I have to throw out the personal items and remake them to be able to resize the base.

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This was just a convoluted way of saying "I want to be able to put crafted and vet reward items back into my inventory". And yes, it has been suggested before.

I think he wants to be able to have the 2nd plot and then resize to the free plot at rent time to avoid paying the measly 20k prestige per 6 weeks. Twenty thousand prestige is a few hours of solo effort, so I don't see why anyone would want to go through this effort.

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I think he was legitimately confuzzled about the prices of the plots, thinking he had to save up all of the price of that plot in order to upgrade, not understanding that the cost of the cost of the plot you are already occupying is deducted from the cost you are upgrading to.

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Well, try harder.

Good intention; sadly, not gonna happen.

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Try hard as I might, mate, I still don't understand WTH yer talking about.

Which of my intentions are you mistaking for good?

Or perhaps you have no idea who or what you are responding to and just decided to jump in and say something, *anything*, to attach yourself to a convo that was otherwise simply over your head?

In that case, welcome to the zone!

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The fact that you totally missed my points has proven whose head the conversation has gone over. The "polite" insults are getting old however, so I'll let your post sink to the bottom of the list and die a not-soon-enough forgotten death.

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K.

GG/GF.

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Well, try harder.

Good intention; sadly, not gonna happen.

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Try hard as I might, mate, I still don't understand WTH yer talking about.

Which of my intentions are you mistaking for good?

Or perhaps you have no idea who or what you are responding to and just decided to jump in and say something, *anything*, to attach yourself to a convo that was otherwise simply over your head?

In that case, welcome to the zone!

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<QR>

While I agree with the thought behind this post, it just so happens that this is the 3473345th post just like this.

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I think yer numbers are off. I counted. I came up with 247, 650,407. Though, I'll admit at the outset I didn't know who the hell you were were responding to, due to the QR, or the "thoughts behind" that specific post, so I just opted to count all of em, so my numbers could be off, too.

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The problem with your idea here is that it's like evangelism, which is something that I neither discourage nor condone under any circumstances.

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Way to take a stand, mate. Tell us how you really feel.

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If you're posting this you should also be writing books on how to treat your neighbor, not covet your buddy's wife, and leave other countries the [censored] alone.

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Although I certainly see the similarities between myself and the guy who already wrote the book that covers the first two, I just don't feel qualified to instruct others on the last one.

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See the parallel?

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Nope.

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Bonker - I was going to write a reasoned reply to this, but I have other things ta' do atm.

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Fair 'nuff.

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I think your viewpoint is very clear - and wrongheaded.

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I'm forced to disagree with at least the first part of this . I've failed miserably to make my point clear to you, as evidenced below. As to *wrongheaded*, meh, your perception is certainly your own reality.

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I also think that the idea that 'noobs' are the only ones trash-talking or whining is demonstrably false, as anyone who has spent 5 minutes in a zone could tell you. Cheers :P

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Never said it's only the n00bs participating in the trash-talk, merely that they were predominantly the ones perpetuating it.

I suspect that since my viewpoint doesn't support your initial assessment of the situation, that any further discussion on the matter between us is likely moot.

I see you as wanting to coddle the very players perpetuating the problem you are complaining about, you see me as the big bad wolf, preying on your sheep.

Impasse.

Cheers.

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y so serious? also lulz @ this thread and .l.

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Perfect example, thnx.

Welcome to the zone!

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Dude, I'm responding to the idea that you expressed w/ the 'srs business' thing: That just because you find yourself in a different medium, e.g., electronic game, that suddenly all normal social rules go out the window. I think that the way we talk and act even in virtual worlds is a reflection on us, and by extension... matters. I have a simple message: Be a good sport, complement those you defeat rather than trash talking them, and if Broadcast stuff gets out of hand, get a couple of your friends together and tell the person being trash talked (via tell) to ignore the trash talker, or make it clear in broadcast that the offender doesn't speak for you. Do you find anything objectionable or inappropriate about my message?

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Oh I compliment and help people I beat, and I don't make fun of people unless they start it. I was saying it was "srs bzns" to take what people are saying to you so seriously. Typed. Over the internet. In a PvP zone.

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Well, before this thread was pruned, I had a pretty good explanation of what I meant: e.g., the specific situation is experienced players trash talking noobs and discouraging them from coming into the zone. I'm not really too phased by this -- but I pointed out that we're losing potential recruits because this is so common. I'm asking people to reduce trash talking, not eliminate it entirely. And specifically, I think people should leave the noobs alone as much as possible.


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The point I think you are missing is that the *srs bsns* mantra is where your theory really breaks down.

Anyone who has been in zones or PVP long enough to be deemed "experienced" by your definition, will have learned to apply the *srs bsns* mantra to the broadcast chat. They are typically the folks much less bothered by the broadcast smacktards and let that crap roll right off their back and right off the page. Its the n00bs that you are imploring us to "leave alone" that are typically filling up the channel with frustration fueled whines upon defeats and gloats upon finding that one other n00b in the zone they can actually beat.

We're not losing potential recruits to pvp based on experienced players chasing them away, its the recent recruit's behavior you are mis-characterizing as being from experienced players.

In other words, in order to prevent the smack-talking you seem to abhor, perhaps we should be DISCOURAGING new folks from entering pvp zones?

You know, instead of learning how to simply ignore and be patient with the n00bs that simply don't know any better.

Shame on you for trying to run the fresh recruits outta the zone.

Tsk Tsk Tsk.