BlackSly

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Stealing a bit from you here:

1) change all of the primary attacks that are shorter than 80, by increasing their range to current_range + (80-current_range)/2.
(10'->45', 20'->50', 30'->55', 40'->60', 50'->65', 60'->70', 70'->75')

2) change the first melee attack in each secondary set (including Taser) to have a 45' range.

#3) Change the first PBAE Toggle (if existant) in each secondary set into an enemy-targeted Aura power (akin to DN and EF)

#4) Increase the strength of the all debuffs (primary and secondary) by 50%.

#5) Apply the irresistable damage (Blaster) and irresistable debuff (Defender) rules from PVP to PVE. (Controllers already got their PVP rule migrated to PVE!)

I think that's a way to get all 4 of my objectives in 5 bullets.

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I like almost all of it. Only thing is that I do like a 20' range on the secondary attacks, both to keep them separate from the "true ranged" attacks of the primary, and also to keep with risk vs reward. Generally the secondary attacks are much heavier on control effects, and I like the idea of making Blasters weigh the risk of approaching to control vs staying back to blast (and vs approaching all the way to control/blap).

Also, I'm not sure about that toggle field idea. I mean, I love it in concept, but I can't see such a field as being STRONG, and meanwhile, it's a constant aggro-pull to the Blaster. Is that really desirable? Would we be better served by a "drop field" like a stationary electric field, that we could use either on controlled mobs or to deny approach like Caltrops?

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You know? I've got another set of ideas, MUCH simpler. Not as good as the others, but probably much easier to make.

1) change all of the primary attacks that are shorter than 80, by adding 20 to their range, except for cones.

2) change the first melee attack in each secondary set (including Taser) to have a 20' range. BTW, that would be Power Thrust for Energy, not Energy Punch, making it a true "keep away" rather than a "get away" power.

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Just out of curiousity, why not both? I agree, power thrust would be greatly improved by this change -- but if other sets get stuff like charged brawl and frozen fists at 20', why not energy punch as well -- power thrust's damage isn't even in the same league as the other attacks you're talking about, so energy manipulation wouldn't be capable of adding the same oomph to a short-ranged (but not quite melee) attack chain.

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Three reasons:

1) I think that of the two, Power Thrust really needs the boost, while Energy Punch can use it.
2) Energy Manipulation is good enough, pretty clearly the best secondary now, that there is no justification for improving TWO of its powers. And of the two, clearly Power Thrust is the one that most deserves it.
3) If I were going to improve two attacks from Energy Manip, it would be Power Thrust and Stun, operating on the principle of "boost the weakest powers first". Stun is much less popular than EP, therefore it pretty clearly could be boosted with less worry about overpowering what's already the best secondary compared to the others.

You know? I've got another set of ideas, MUCH simpler. Not as good as the others, but probably much easier to make.

1) change all of the primary attacks that are shorter than 80, by adding 20 to their range, except for cones.

2) change the first melee attack in each secondary set (including Taser) to have a 20' range. BTW, that would be Power Thrust for Energy, not Energy Punch, making it a true "keep away" rather than a "get away" power.

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Plus, every other AT would react badly I'm sure if Blasters got even an ounce of mez protection.

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What, even the Khelds?

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Especially Khelds.

An AT that has THREE damage shields in its defensive set... and no mez protection to keep them up seems quite... ummm... mismatched.

My quickest version of Blaster fixes:

PRIMARIES:
AR: change Ignite to enemy-targeted so that we don't waste time targetting the ground. Lower its duration to 5 seconds, but add a 5 second DoT effect on anyone hit by it. That allows it to do at least 60% damage when you hit someone with it even if they run out. This fixes AR by filling in its single-target attach chain and its non-Lethal damage at the same time.

Archery: raise all damages and all recharge and End costs. With the long animations, the only way to give it reasonable DPA is to raise damages, which means raising the rest. That should be quick and easy, and a reasonable boost.

Fire: Flares is too weak for the activation time. Increase its damage and recharge and endurance cost.

Ice: Ice Storm is too low damage for the End cost. Raise damage or lower cost.

Electric: Make VS target only your target so that you have some control over it.

Energy: Halve the knockback distance of the knockbacks.

Sonic: ?


SECONDARIES:
Overall, make all of the 1st level Immobilizes more effective as an attack. They should all do at least 1/2 of their damage as an up-front burst, then the rest as ticks. Power Thrust should have a 20' range (10' at the least), so that it's useful as a defensive measure that PREVENTS melee rather than one that makes you trade a melee hit for a melee hit.

Devices: Add +Dam(minor) to TD. Or, better, armor penetration to attacks when using it (if possible). Make Time Bomb able to be detonated early, and make Trip Mine a power that you set up on the floor, and then can roll it forward a short distance. Enough that you can use it from outside perception range with just Cloaking Device, rather than requiring SG+CD.

Fire: Make Burn a +Regen power and status protection as long as you're in the patch. Since it lasts just 10 seconds, that's not too uber. Change Blazing Aura to Smoky Aura, which is a PBAoE team +Stealth/+Def power, like Steamy Mist but without the resists.

That's all pretty quick. Only two power animations changed (Smoky Aura, and a movable Trip Mine).

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I am putting the requirements for Contacts - and their location - in the Prima Guide...

but here was our intent with these Contacts - reward Exploration. Reward people who poke around to find new things. Now, the down side is that once found, these Contacts don't inform the player about what it takes to unlock them.

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Don't get me wrong, rewards are good. But, would you consider some type of hints in-game for the non-forum, non-guide reading folks?

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Agreed completely. This should be an in-game puzzle to solve by delving the game world, and solving puzzles requires information. Not an OOC puzzle to solve by delving the internet.

Have the contacts give clues, perhaps even have some contacts give clues to other contacts, but make all the information available inside the game.

After all, do you want players spending time on the internet searching, or do you want them spending time inside the game searching?

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iirc, technically there is no such thing as Melee. Melee is just a ranged attack of 5 feet.

Melee classes get some sort of 'resistance', by special cases, to the range debuff, otherwise they'll lose the 5 feet and be unable to attack. All the other ATs were left as is. So they lose their melee capabilities if hit by hurricane as the 5 feet range of melee drops to 0.

Probably, making the range debuff floor at 5 would solve the problem, but...

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Technically there is INDEED melee and range. Just recently a poster made a guide for a "new" more accurate brawl index. The data he based it on is extracted from pigg-files (the actual code of the game).

You can see very clear that all attacks are either range or melee. Link here

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Of course there is a distinction. Consider the SR toggles that protect against Ranged attacks and against Melee attacks. If there were no distinction, they couldn't work.

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So you're telling me that 35% def to AoEs is making -4s dodge 30 some odd ticks of 130%acc ?

--Suichiro

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As I recall it, the Defense first lowers from your to-hit chance, and therefore could potentially floor it. Then you get to add in Inspirations and Enhancements, but it may be too late if it's floored already.

And it's possible that, just as NPC Brawl does a ridiculously higher level of damage than PC Brawl, NPC Evasion is much stronger than PC evasion. Remember that their Unstoppable doesn't crash, that MoG is about 90% resists, etc. They didn't suffer the Global Defense Nerf, we did.

I got owned by a Night Widow once also (see the "big hitters on mobs" thread).

In a way, I love it. Bosses that are viciously dangerous, without doing it by overpowering their damage or their HPs or their resists, or by chain-mezzing you. Just defense, debuffs, constant damage that's hard to resist, etc.

They beat you. They don't one-shot you, they don't surprise you, they don't "cheat". They're just so full of abilities, that they beat you. Kind of like another PC, in a way, who is +3 to your level. I like it far more than giving Knockout Blow to mobs.

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Isn't this unfair to the Defender AT? Is it untrue to say that, across the board , blasters primaries are stronger than defender secondaries, tanker primaries are stronger than scrapper secondaries, scrapper primaries are stronger than tanker secondaries

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Yes, it is untrue.
Secondary effects/debuffs work BETTER for Defenders than for Blasters. Granted, most Blaster-shared Blasts don't have a secondary effect that can be changed in value, but it's visible in Electric Blast.

Scrapper primaries are stronger at damage than Tanker secondaries. However, in general, Tanker secondaries provide more inherent crowd control while Scrappers provide more debuffs. That's another secondary being better at a (specific) thing than comparable primaries.

Doesn't seem wrong or unbalanced. Only problems are mistakes (Defender FR getting switched with Controller FR), and powers which are not multipurpose (Thunderclap) so that they don't have a purpose which works better for Defenders than for Controllers.

But the concept of having some aspects work better for Controllers is not inherently wrong. It's just applied poorly for a few powers. And that seems to be a case of "pure control powers don't work that well for Defenders". Simple solution is to insert debuffs even in all pure control powers like Thunderclap.

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Hey guys, don't be so hard on Castle, he's a new dev, remember?



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Suckup!

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Maybe, but take a look at the buglist that he's shot down in months.

Anyway, my addition, and I'll keep it to two short topics in one combo: AR and Dev:

AR/Ignite: AR lacks a single-target chain. Like Electricity, they have only 3 single-target attacks, and 1 is a snipe. But with their thematic /Dev as secondary, they cannot fill that in with a melee attack. That leaves AR as really stuck in single-target situations. Ignite COULD fill this in... if it could be either used without an Immobilize, or if it could be used with an Immobilize. That means either:

1) Change Ignite to a single-target DoT attack. Like Flamethrower, but single-target, and DoT that cannot be escaped, like Flamethrower. Ignite stats (dam/rech/end/range/activ) to make up for the loss of AE damage compared to Flamethrower.

2) Fix AR so that the weapon is not put away when utilizing one-hand powers such as grenade tossing or activating immobs from other sets. That would allow Ignite to be chained with an Immob against a single target, without causing the weapon redraw delay with every single Ignite/Immob combo.

2 would be nice, but requires animation time. 1 would be by far the simplest solution. Personally, I'd prefer 1, because I'd like a chance to use it in PvP, and I'm sure that chaining Immobs with Ignite would be worthless in PvP.

Dev/Auto Turret: What is the purpose of this pet? Aggro pull? No, it doesn't do enough damage/taunt. Additional damage like VS? Fine, but then it should be mobile. Problem is that it adds little damage and little aggro control... which is fine, but then it shouldn't be on such a long timer, and cost so much End, and take so long to set up. It's a useful concept as it is, but not worth the stats. Either the stats need to change, or the concept.

1) Change stats: lower activation time, duration, recharge, and end cost. Then it's feasable to set it up pre-battle, and while it's a small benefit, it's not a great cost in terms of set-up time or Endurance. Not a great power, but worthwhile.

2) Change purpose: Make it mobile like a true pet. Make its attack be some cone attack, probably the henchman version of Full Auto would be fine. Probably a very high recharge and very low damage would be even better. The idea would be to have a mobile aggro pull on your side, that is constantly drawing aggro. Since its DPS wouldn't be great, it wouldn't out-aggro you ON YOUR TARGET, but it would draw unattached mobs to it by plinking them a bit. As compared to its current situation, where it may not draw an unattached mob simply because it doesn't shoot at him. A high ROF, even at low damage, and AoE, will cause aggro pull (weak, since it's not with a Taunt effect), and make it useful for its main purpose.

Either 1 or 2 seem relatively simple, as they shouldn't need much graphics work. I'm not sure about 2, as it would require attaching wheels or treads to the device, but it may not be very complicated.

Hope this doesn't get him deluged with PMs. But OTOH I felt he deserved public kudos.

After reading the thread about Increase Density, where he talks about the mode of buffs (Replace vs default), I sent him a PM asking if we could have some powers fixed:

Smoke Grenade, Smoke, etc, lose debuffs for a second when replaced, in order to avoid stacking. As did O2 Boost, and as did Burn. In contrast to other powers like Clear Mind, Practiced Brawler, etc, which can be reapplied without dropping their buff (or debuff).

His reply was very helpful:
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It's a bug. I'll submit it to the programming staff.

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FYI, if you didn't know, some of these powers have been bugged for over a year.

It's amazing how effective Castle is, and unfortunately, it makes the rest of the Devs look rather negligent, when I see that easily 2/3 of the bugs squished in the last few months are due to Castle looking into the matter. I just wish that there were a few more like him on staff, looking to fix problems, rather than more designers, who look to create more powers/content/whatever. I'd rather have a little bit less game and have it be working right, than have more and have it be buggy.

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Not many of the AoE powers are anything more than Mag 2 at the most. Too powerful else. I'm not aware of anything holding a boss without it being a single target effect.

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I believe Salt Crystals from Earth control can hold bosses in one hit, that or I've been really, really, really lucky with my +1 mags. (I'm hit a group containing three Freaktanks and slept all three)

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Controllers get a chance for a "critical mez" that boosts Mag by 1, with any mez. Including AoEs (other than, I believe, Telekinesis). The chance seems different on different powers (I've seen the Sleep powers hit bosses relatively often, while the Holds are much less dependable).

Even more currently, 50%.

Continuing the series discussing the synergies between primaries and secondaries within each AT. This is not about thematic synergy (AR/Dev), nor is it about pairing each primary with the best secondary. It's about which sets has more of its abilities become especially useful when paired with another particular set.

Now discussing: Controllers.
Prior: Blasters


Earth Control :
Earth Control is a heavy control set, with location-targeted controls and debuffs. The pet is a tanker pet, relatively slow and hard to kill. The powers that separate the set from others are Quicksand (area-targeted -Slow, -Jump, -Fly, -Def) and Volcanic Gases (area-targeted pulsating Hold). Also, almost all powers have a solid -Def component to them.

Due to having several location-based powers (Quicksand, Volcanic Gases, Earthquake), Earth benefits from a secondary that will help it reposition the mobs, and that will help it prevent mobs from leaving the areas. Due to having a slow tough pet, Earth will benefit from having a secondary that buffs the pet's offense, and from having a ranged heal. Empathy is good for the pet but helps nothing with positioning. Rad, while a good set overall, only provides Lingering Radiation unless the caster is willing to run in with Choking Cloud in order to draw mobs into the target area. TA has nice overlap with Oil Slick and Glue Arrow, but doesn't help the pet at all (though he doesn't need it). And FF helps Stoney tank, which isn't all that necessary, but while it can push mobs into position, it does nothing to slow them. My choice would be Storm, as Hurricane can push mobs into the zone. When there, it will debuff their accuracy, while Earth's powers debuff their defense. Snow Storm and Freezing Rain slow them down and keep them in the location, while adding more knockdown. Tornado is a more situational power, unfortunately, but the rest of Storm works very well with Earth. Kinetics and Radiation also work well, but don't multiply the power effects with the primary as much as Earth/Storm.


Fire Control :
Fire Control lacks, for the most part, area-targeted powers. Its AoE Hold is PBAoE, and it has a major damage power (Hot Feet) that is PBAoE, and that benefits from Containment. Since using Hot Feet with Flashfire (Disorient) is subject to mobs wandering out of range, many Fire Controllers will use Fire Cages to prevent mob wander. For them, this makes sense since they do not have a pulsing Knockdown power that will be negated by an Immobilize. For these reasons, Fire Controllers are often in point-blank range. Their pets do heavy damage but are relatively vulnerable, and due to being summoned in threes, benefit from AoE healing powers.

At this point, there are really only two sets to consider: Radiation and Kinetics. Rad's debuffs help in survival at close range, Lingering Radiation adds a -Slow that stacks with Hot Feet to approximate an Immobilize, and AM can buff all three Imps at once. However, Speed Boost and Increase Density can be reasonably maintained on the Imps, and Kinetics works very well in melee range. Hopefully a controller can manage to control the mobs so that he is relatively safe, thus negating Rad's main advantage (defensive debuffs). And, offensively, there is nothing to compare to a Fulcrum Shifted controller using Hot Feet with Containment, with three FS'd Fire Imps next to him. Thus, I consider Kinetics the best secondary, and Radiation as good alternate.


Ice Control:
Ice Control is very similar to Earth. The associated debuff is -Recharge rather than -Defense. Also, its ranged debuff is a click -Slow/-Recharge cone rather than Quicksand. It has a PBAoE debuff/confuse aura rather than a ranged Stun, and its AoE Hold is PBAoE. It only has one location power (Ice Slick), and it has two PBAoE powers (Glacier, Arctic Air). Thus, it is partially between Earth and Fire, in terms of being ranged vs PB, and target-centric vs location-centric.

Like Earth, it will benefit from Storm's ability to position mobs onto Ice Slick, and from the ability to stack Ice Slick with Freezing Rain and Snow Storm. Add in Arctic Air and/or Shiver, and mobs will be stuck in the Ice Slick, effectively immobile, with lowered recharged, and falling down. However, the problem is that Ice wants mobs around it to get effect out of Arctic Air/Glacier, which is not compatible with Hurricane. Like Fire, being used to going in the middle of mobs, it will benefit from Kinetics heals and Transference, but since it doesn't have an equivalent of Hot Feet or pets that do as much damage, it doesn't get the same benefit from Fulcrum Shift and Siphon Power. At this point, I'd be satisfied with either Storm or Kinetics, but neither really catches my eye. However, Radiation does. Ice kills more slowly than Fire, thus it needs to be safe for a longer period of time, and Arctic Air works well with Choking Cloud (if you can run both) to neutralize mobs around you. An Ice/Rad running onto Ice Slick with CC and AA active, ready to fire Glacier, and using Radiation Infection for safety, is a very safe controller. Thus, I really see Rad as the secondary of choice.

As a side note, I don't see Trick Arrows as really matching up especially well in general with any set, but sometimes what you want is just to fill in a particular hole. Well, both Ice and Earth lack damage output. Also, both have means of keeping mobs in a location due to knockdowns, slows, and ranged immobilizes. Therefore, both have need for AoE damage, and can keep mobs flopping in a location... which brings us up to Oil Slick Arrow. It is a very good AoE damage power from a secondary, which exactly fills in the biggest hole for Ice and Earth. Additionally, Flash Arrow provides a -Pcp/-Acc debuff that both Ice and Earth lack. And both Ice and Earth can keep mobs in one location to take best advantage of Disruption Arrow and Poison Gas arrow. Thus, while TA is subpar and I can't really recommend it for any set, if you're satisfied with using mostly your primary and just want the secondary to fill in the biggest holes, TA will do that nicely for Ice and Earth.


Gravity Control:
Gravity Control suffers from a lack of defining strengths. Its unique attributes (Wormhole's ability to reposition mobs, extra single-target damage powers, AoE enemy phase shift) aren't impressive enough to make up for some particular lacks (long animation times, only one secondary control power with poor duration/recharge). Thematics aside, the only real advantage of Gravity is Singularity, a superb tanking/control pet. At least it is all ranged.

Now, what do we want as a secondary with Gravity? First, I'd like something that provides control, preferably AoE control. Gravity does have enough single-target control that I'm not worried about that (so Kinetics' single-target debuffs/drains aren't useful). It's also all-ranged, so I figure to take advantage of one of its few strengths. At this point I'm looking at Rad and Storm for the control powers, and at TA for the all-ranged option. Storm is really close range, but I do like the ability to grab mobs with Wormhole, and throw them all in a corner so that I can use Hurricane to pin them there. Rad doesn't have to be melee unless we depend on Choking Cloud, since EMP has enough range to use from the outside of a fight. And TA can alternate its own debuffs with Gravity's controls, keeping the controller active in each fight. I would put Rad in first place due to CC plus EMP as fill-in control options, and TA in second due to the ability to remain all-ranged.


Illusion Control:
Illusion is a very different control set. It lacks Disorient and Immobilize and AoE mob debuffs, and instead has a AoE Fear power and two +Def/+Stealth self/group buffs. It also has Phantom Army, a unique aggro-control power, and has a pet with good single-target damage and great AoE damage. What Illusion lacks is direct damage (it has the fewest powers that cause or benefit from Containment), and any ability to control the movement of mobs by Immobilizes or Slows.

Phantom Army doesn't benefit from buffs, so a set that debuffs the enemy would be helpful. With PA to draw the alpha, and with good Invisibility powers, the Illusionist can enter melee range if they want, but other than to fire Flash, they have no reason to remain there. Thus, I like a ranged set, preferably with extra control options. This is leaving me with Rad and TA. Also Storm, since Illusion really lacks any ability to control mob movement and Storm has FR, Snow Storm, and Hurricane for that. Plus Thunderclap for extra control.

Out of the three, I'm putting TA in the back. TA's long recharges work well as "alternates", but Illusion doesn't really need "alternates". Its main soft controls (PA and Spectral Terror) are available every combat, while Flash doesn't see as much use as most other AoE Holds. So TA's ability to help every other combat may work with Gravity, but Illusion wants more of some additional every-combat help. Storm and Rad both work well, Storm for the ability to slow mobs, knock them down, push them around, and Rad for the every-combat debuffs. Rad is less affected by Phantasm's tendency to toss everything around, and Illusion draws less direct aggro than other sets so it gets less effect out of Hurricane's powerful defense. So I see Radiation as the best primary for Illusion, followed by Storm and TA.


Mind Control:
Mind Control is rather different. The most obvious difference is that it gets no pets. A less obvious is that it has no tools to control mob movement other than the Holds, which control everything. And, lastly, it doesn't prevent knockback in any way. This can be both good and bad. Mostly bad. Another difference is that it has a nice cone AoE damage power (Terrify), and thus would benefit from a quick easy method of creating Containment... such as an AoE Immobilize. Which it lacks. It has lots of control, both single-target and AoE, and all of the control is ranged. Lastly and most subtly, it lacks debuffs.

Debuffing and soft control powers are a major tool that Mind Control sacrifices for hard control. But usually, soft control and debuffs make up for their lesser effect, by being available every combat. So I would look for the secondary to have these powers.

Kinetics doesn't take advantage of Mind's ranged ability. They have to get in close for full effect. It's workable with MC since MC provides enough control to do this, but it doesn't really take advantage. Rad, assuming you skip Choking Cloud, is all ranged, and has nice debuffs. It's a pretty good match, especially with MC's Mass Hypnosis, since the Rad debuffs normally draw aggro but won't wake up sleeping mobs. So it's quite possible to open up with Terrify... upon mobs that are sleeping (for double damage) and debuffed by all three of Rad's debuffs. A very nice combination. Trick Arrow's Glue and Oil Slick provide soft control that MC lacks, and it's all ranged. Lastly, Storm provides mob positioning and debuffs that MC lacks, plus damage powers to make up for the lack of a pet when soloing. All of the debuff sets work well with Mind Control, but I like the ability to chain the AoE Sleep with Rad's debuffs in order to have all of the mobs debuffed without drawing aggro. Rad would be the choice of secondary here, followed by TA then Storm.




Some Final Notes :
Looking back, I've pretty much ignored the "buffing" sets in the secondaries. FF, Sonics, Empathy. The reason is that these sets gain their synergy more from their interaction with other teammates, rather than from their interaction with the primary. The primary set function, Control, is enemy-oriented. So are the secondary sets that Debuff. A secondary set that Buffs is ally-oriented. So it's very hard to see important synergies between an enemy-oriented set and an ally-oriented set.

FF can provide mob repositioning, so you should consider that... but I can't consider it as a better set for repositioning than Storm. Empathy is a good set to buff your pets, but since Kinetics will do that and also buff the caster, if your primary would benefit from having your pets boosted... I'd again go with Kinetics. Thus, if you're only looking at your own powersets for synergies, you won't find much between a Control set and a Buffing set.

If you are looking at taking a buffing set anyhow since you want to be better able to support your team, consider the following:
FF is an all-defensive buff set. Sonic is mostly defensive, though it adds -Res debuffs. Empathy is a mix between offensive and defensive, and Kinetics is almost all offensive.

So, consider the primary's ability to provide defense and/or offense. Earth Control will provide an offense boost since they have AoE powers with -Def. Earth and Ice also are good for offense since they have location-centered powers that will keep mobs grouped for AoEs. Mind Control is heavy on the defense, with their ability to control multiple spawns. So I wouldn't really pair up MC with FF or Sonics, while MC/Emp or MC/Kin would work in a team. Illusion is all defensive, since it has no offensive boosting, so again I'd skip FF or Sonics with it. Gravity has a slight offensive boost with the ability to reposition a spawn so it can be better attacked, but it's pretty minor. However, they do a serious amount of single-target damage if you don't have an active secondary, so you might get some use out of a "buff and forget" secondary like FF.

I think all the sets have some different advantages. Focusing on DPS just ignores some advantages.

Consider that Stone Melee has Fault, and SS has Handclap... obviously these powers do not help in DPS, but they add something to the set.

Now, about SM vs EM:
- Fault is AoE knockdown. No damage, 100% status.
- Tremor has AoE knockdown, and 15' radius. While Whirling Hands has AoE disorient, and 8' radius. Tremor > WH, even with a slower activation time.
- The hammers both cause knockdown/knockup, which helps greatly when fighting a boss. And Seismic Smash is not guaranteed status like TF, but when it activates it will Hold a boss. Combined, SM has great anti-boss tools in the single-target attacks, and anti-minion tools in the AoE attacks. By that, I mean, tools to prevent them from hitting you back, not tools to kill.
- SM has a ranged -Fly/Knockback attack with good damage (though slow activation).

All in all, I think that SM has vastly superior control abilities, able to do decent control against both groups and bosses. It has a ranged attack. And it gets high damage attacks very early. All of those are advantages over EM.

Don't know if they're good enough to convince you. Not all advantages are equal. But they're certainly there as reasons to take SM without looking at concept or animations.

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That's what happens when you enter PvP with a weak build you get destroyed..what difference does it make if it's a stalker doing it or my Grav/Rad slowing you debuffing you and then holding you for 5min..you never got to fight back either...or when I run in with my MA/SR and unsupressed joust you with EC+BU which by the way hits for 802 with crit at level 38...now imagine if I downed a bunch of enrages like the stalkers are doing...your still dead and never had a chance.

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So anyone who cannot see a Stalker coming is a "weak build"?
Do you even realize how FEW powersets are out there that do not have inherent +Perception powers? Tactics does NOT see through Hide/Stealth.

So the other choice is to play a powerset that has auto-hit toggles? That's what, Storm, FF, Stone Armor, Fire Manipulation?

Anything else is a weak build?

You're not making sense. There are lots of builds that can beat Grav/Rad, and they're NOT all dependent on the same powers. But everything that's not "weak" to Stalkers is dependent on anti-Hide powers... whether they're +Perception or auto-hit toggles. You're making a really weak argument by trying to go to Rock/Paper/Scissors. As I said in another post, the problem with that argument isn't that there are no builds that will destroy Stalkers. There are. The problem is that there are very much fewer builds that will beat Stalkers, than will get owned by them. The Rock/Paper/Scissors argument applies only in situations where there are as many rocks as paper and as scissors, so that the overall won-loss record of each type is equivalent. That's not true with Stalkers, and it's far more true with most other powersets. And it's certainly true with other ATs in general... Ice/EM may be great in PvP, but AR/Fire isn't. Meanwhile, you can't pull out a Stalker combo that ISN'T great in PvP.

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Really? Ok Stormy TP foe's a /SR, /DA, /Regen, Fire/ into a corner of a broken building with a lip on it...it prevents you from flying up or SJ up...you're now stuck and can't get away or attack...where is the tactic to get away or even fight back? The only option is concelment PP for PS..nothing else can help you. I would rather be one shotted then be trapped in a corner for the next 3mins unable to act.

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At 41+, there are status powers available. If you hit with one, you'll shut off his Hurricane toggles.

You can Teleport out.

You can TP Foe the Stormy on the inside of you so that he repels you out of the corner.

You can use MoG, which I believe has Repel protection.

Some sets (Spines, Claws, SS, Stone Melee) have ranged attacks. While they may not have a high DPS at range, remember that the Stormy can't heal self.

Or, lastly, you can just attack him someone. I'm not sure how it works, but my brother pushed a scrapper into the corner, and got one-shotted by the scrapper's broadsword. So there must be a way to get a shot in, maybe by trying to push forward until you sneak a hit in between Repel pulses.

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I get that it doesn't matter to the victim of an AS how much work went into that kill, and I'm willing to concede that everyone should feel they had a shot in most situations, but you have to consider BOTH perspectives in making any sort of change to stalkers. Reduce their frontloaded damage, and you'll have to give them something else to compensate.

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Exactly. I'm not for just nerfing the front-strike capability of Stalkers and leaving them hung out to dry. Other than the AS, which IMO is too powerful, Stalkers are pretty weak. So if we take the AS out as a "I win" button, then they need something else. More damage, more HPs, a better way to hide, whatever.

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You're wasting your time. Reason, fairness, and other silly things like that are foreign concepts to developers. Remember, such foes are the equivalents their characters, and they're not going to gimp their characters vs. the Enemy (players).

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I trust you'll be happy to learn that I changed Ballista based on feedback in this thread.

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Pwned.
Totally.
Just.... pwned.

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Wow, so you propose changing the whole game as well? Should stormies not have hurricane bubblers not have force bubble? why do u think certain archetypes took range attacks in the first place? this is the nature of pvp, use friggin insights to see a stalker instead of nerf calls

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I'm not calling for nerfs. Nor would I be calling for nerfs on Hurricane, though that's been up on the boards. There are tactics to dealing with Hurricane, and even if you have no access to them, you can still kill someone who has Hurricane on, without any special redesign.

I'm calling for a review of the Stalker AT's design concept. I don't want them made weaker. I want them redesigned so that they're not a one-trick pony designed around a 2-ton Clydesdale of a trick. That is just bad design. Either the trick is too strong, as I think it is now, or it's too weak, as may happen after nerfing. Either way, someone loses.

Right now, the non-Stalkers are losing, but nerfing Stalkers wouldn't solve the problem. Because we'd still be left with a bad design concept, and instead of a uber class that is breaking PvP for others, we'd have a broken class that's worthless in PvP. Either way, it's bad.

Stalkers need to be redefined, not nerfed. One-trick ponies in PvP do not work well. Either that trick is uber, or it's not. If it is uber, it breaks PvP for others. If it's not, that AT is broken in PvP.

Stormies are not one-trick pony, and that pony doesn't compare to assassination in terms of how dangerous it is. Completely different argument there. If a Stormy comes at you, and you feel that you cannot deal with it (and I've heard of Scrappers dealing with it by getting a critical and one-shotting the Stormy), you can just escape. Whereas you cannot escape having been assassinated. That's the major difference. A Stalker's one-trick kills you. A Stormy's one trick merely defends them. Comparing the two is senseless.

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Not surprisingly, they only care about their death,
which, because it was *quick* also seems to equate to *easy* for us to
do, in their minds... Put simply, that is a mistaken (but understandable)
perception.

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Isn't it..they don't understand that we've been chasing them sometimes for 5min or longer just waiting on them to settle just enough...I can't the number of times I've hit BU only to have them move just before I can hit AS..all because some corrupter is shooting at them.

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Oh, I understand that it's not easy to set up an AS on someone to kill them.

But you don't understand, that it doesn't matter. The Stalker spends 5 min, and kills the target. Sometimes. Meanwhile, the target is dead, and the Stalker goes on to another target. During those 5 mins, the Stalker was practically safe. 5 minutes of safety for a kill, seems wortwhile for the Stalker. And no, this isn't my opinion speaking, this is the counts of the Stalkers who are actually out there, spending 5 minutes to stalk and kill someone. Obviously it's worth it for enough Stalker players.

Now, take the other player. He's in a zone, doing something for a while, then BAM... he's dead. Doesn't matter to him if the Stalker spent 1 minute or 10 setting it up. What matters to him is that he's dead, and never had the ability to do anything about it. So he gives up on PvP. Another player who could have been involved in PvP, who either makes a Stalker for it, or gives it up.

The time involved does not matter when we're looking from the point of the victim. The end result is the same whether the Stalker takes 10 minutes to kill me, or 1. I'm just as frustrated and angry, and just as likely to give up on PvP. That's the problem, and the time spent by Stalkers doesn't really matter to that problem.

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You use suppresion and breakfrees as the answer the devs gave for stoping perma holds in PvP and that nothing has been done to answer the stalker.

have u not been reading the posts powers that some heroes have that can see threw Hide like preception powers, any AoE that is a toggle insights, lucks clear mind from defenders...etc

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You are failing your reading comprehension. Allow me, please, to try to clarify my points:
- Break-Frees are available to everyone, as are Insights. Unlike Insights, they do not have to be used preventively, therefore they can last until needed. Insights, to count, have to be constantly used... what do you do, 10 minutes into Warburg, when you're out of Insights? No power choices needed for Break-Frees to give significant protection against mezzing.
- Suppression is automatic. Again, no power choices needed.

Point being, that what you're saying is that people can redesign to face Stalkers, and I'm saying that every character having to desig to face an AT is bad design.

Powers do NOT see through Hide/Stealth. That takes either stacked +Pcp powers (available to very few), or constant Insight usage (which puts you on a limited timer in a zone or the Arena... when you run out, you're left blind).

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At lvl 24 if i have the AS 6 slotted to kill you in one hit chances are my defenses have been neglected...don't know another AT that can get pwnd by a solo controller.

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My solo controller can pwn almost anyone. If you think that controllers are weak in PvP, you're completely mistaken. And I know of an even stronger build than Ill/Rad... Ill/Storm is just evil.

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Believe me,your experiences to date are only because you must be new to PVP. ANyone who has been out there fighting has already nerfed the one trick pony that are stalkers....

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Sorry, but that can also be easily rewritten as:
You must be new to PvP in CoV. Everyone else who has experience has realized that to PvP you must design your characters so that they can fight Stalkers.

In my opinion, when one AT is forcing the other ATs to either set up their power choices so that they can handle the one AT, or else to avoid PvP, something is broken.

You say that there are methods to deal with Stalkers? Fine. I disagree with the contention that these methods are great, but certainly there are methods that make you a relatively difficult target.

My problem is that we have to redesign characters for these methods. We do not have to redesign to deal with Tanks, or Brutes, or Scrappers, or Dominators, or Controllers. But we do have to redesign to deal with Stalkers. And by "deal", I do mean "to not be an easy one-shot kill". Not necessarily to defeat. You can redesign all you want, if a Stalker wants to get away, they will get away. But at least you can redesign to survive.

That's broken. When Controllers were in a situation where other ATs would have had to redesign in order to avoid being perma-held until death, the problem was solved by the Devs.
...Break Frees
...Suppression

Where is the Dev solution to the Stalkers? There isn't one. The only solutions are player-made, and that means that in order to survive in PvP, you need to design your character and/or your teams so that you can survive Stalkers. Doing anything less is just invitation to being repeatedly one-shotted until you give in and either redesign, or give up PvP.

There is something broken in Denmark. And it's rotting.

The purpose, design, and goal of the AT is bad. The AT is designed around one-shotting opponents, around avoiding opponents when they want to avoid them. That design is completely broken in PvP. So either it's allowed to continue according to design (which is unfair to the other ATs), or it's prevented from continuing according to design, which is unfair to Stalkers. When a design is set up so that it's either unfair to the AT or to the other ATs, something was designed wrongly.

IMO, Stalkers need their concept re-examined. Invisible one-shotting character is not a concept that works in a PvP game.

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All cars crashed, no survivors.

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Great line there.

GS, you're scaring me. Really. Stop it. ... or... maybe ... keep doing it. It's... strangely addictive...