Biospark
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Quote:What is not politically correct about the truth. It is actually quite refreshing to hear someone admit this without an agenda or "anti-healer" bias. Thanks RigelOriginally Posted by Rigel_Kent
It's not politically correct, but we have to remember empathy is a below average defender primary. (Unless you can name six defender primaries worse than empathy.)
So we have to be very careful about drawing conclusions about defender performance from empathy performance alone, or assuming that the problems empathy faces aren't unique to empathy. For example, Thermal Radiation and Time Manipulation -- two other sets frequently misplayed as "healer" sets -- aren't at all redundant with destiny buffs.
As far as Destiny making healers redundant (the original thread topic), I can only smile and shake my head. If anyone thinks that a single AoE heal every minute or so is better than a well-played Empath, they have obviously never seen a well-played Empath. -
Quote:There is the rubOriginally Posted by Dr Harmony
Why did you want to play these sets?
If a set is clearly marked as "1/10 for soloability, 10/10 for team empowerment" and you don't like playing a support role, why would you want to play it?
How did you get hundreds of hours played before realising that a primarily support role wasnt for you?
Surely there would be a better archetype and set suited for your concept that is more soloable? e.g instead of a Force Field Defender, go Kinetic Melee/Energy Aura, or Gravity/FF Controller. Instead of an Empathy Defender go Radiation Emission, or these days Time.
My point is, someone has to come last in every category, and solo-ability is one of them. The sets that do score low for soloing tend to be rewarded by making the best superteams, providing the best team support, not being knocked down by the Purple Patch, being invaluable to high level teams from low levels, and so on.
I'd agree that some of the older sets could use a tweak, but I dont think a blanket pass on giving the user a portion of ally-only buffs is the way to do it.
When playing on a team the preferred "role" that I like is "support". In other MMOs, that has amounted to buffing and healing mainly. I do not generally enjoy the team roles of "tanking", "crowd control" or "DPS". It is no different for me in CoH.
However, I also like to solo. Even to challenge myself to solo on characters that are not generally supposed to be able to solo. I never said that I don't like the support role. In fact, I prefer the support role. Having a preferred team "role" and being a person who also likes to solo are not mutually exclusive in my case.
Hope that helps. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
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I think that we should have a clearly marked option on character creation to make a character who's bottom of the heap for soloability and top of the heap for teaming, which is pretty much what we have with, say a Thermal/Psi.
I like the huge variablity in roles provided by the support powersets, and don't want to see them smoothed out.
Apparently, the Devs feel the same
Judging by their reluctance to change some of the legacy powersets.
For myself, the option to create a different character, using a more "solo-friendly" or "new and improved powerset", is certainly available, but feels like an abandonment of sets that I wanted to play since back in 2004. And what do I do with an Empath that has billions of influence invested, hundreds of hours and memories played. Do I always get to be that "side-kick" or will I ever experience what it is like to be a team unto himself, a "Cosmic Avenger" ?
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Quote:Nice idea Tex ! Seems like a pretty fair improvement for the Buffing sets.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
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Now for the change I'm actually willing to push for for real:
I do think self-buffing really should be allowed (for all ATs with these sets). Masterminds can already basically do it. I would consider making it so with two catches:- You receive 50% of the base value of the power (unmodified by enhancement, Power Boost, etc).
- You only receive effects that you can slot for. You therefor do not get +Recharge, +Damage, +Exotic, or Mezz Protection, but you can get +Regen, +Recovery, +Resist, +Defense, +ToHit, or healing.
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Quote:In their current forms, I certainly agree. This is probably one of the biggest problems standing in the way of fixing Empathy.Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Well I suppose I should add a caveat. A power that is not able to be applied to all 7 other teammates within a reasonable time frame should not be available for the buffer to use on themselves. That said, things like Bubbles, Sonic Shields, and Speed Boost, as examples, should be applicable to the defender while things like Adrenaline Boost and Fortitude should not.
With that being said though, Adrenaline Boost is really the same as both RA powers with the recharge thrown in that can be perma on one team-mate. Even though I know they will not fix this, what I would prefer is to make the actual Regen/recovery auras perma with about the same effort it takes to make things like Phantom army perma, and make Adrenaline boost a PBAoE +recharge only power.
Fortitude could easily be changed to a PBAoE buff by simply removing one of its buffs. +Defense would be my call so that it doesn't step on other primary's toes. Instead, it could be +to hit, +damage and +status protect or resist.
These are just Ideas, but nothing like these will ever happen. Like you said, the developers seem to be against the idea of fixing some of the older powersets, but perfectly happy with releasing NEW and OP sets like Time.
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Quote:Agree 100%Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
One of the real problems with that is primarily buffing defenders have powers that do not benefit themselves at all, just teammates. While debuffing defenders can use ALL of their powers to benefit both themselves and their teams, a disparity that the devs don't seem willing to remedy.
I see no reason that buffing powers should not apply to the buffing defender as well. It makes no sense to me that a defender can't defend themselves. If we were talking real world here I would call them inept.
I don't buy the argument that it shouldn't apply to the defender because its too powerful. If it really is too powerful for the defender to have then most likely it's also too powerful for the team to have as well.
I know alot of these threads de-volve into arguments about creating Tank-Mages, but I have played Tankers quite a bit, and considering what my Tanks are able to accomplish with more HPs, more defense, status protection, and higher damage, renders moot the whole Idea that Defenders should not be allowed to defender themselves.
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If anyone has ever tried soloing Bosses on defenders (most primaries), then you would know that making a defender more "tank-like" is not much of a risk of A) even occuring or B) drawing more players to the AT because suddenly they are too powerfull.
The real differences between defenders has little to do with the "inherent" (which was recently improved) and more to do with "parity". That is, some powersets are better at supporting teams, while some are less effective. By the same token, some are better at soloing, and yet others are not so good (or even bad) at solo-ing.
If the developers really, truely, wanted to balance defenders, this is where I would like them to start. Make the primary sets that are not as good at team support better at it ! And then, for those primaries that are not so great at solo-ing, make them better at it. In the end, the goal would be to lift the "under-performers" in each catergory into the middle of the pack. There would still be sets "better" at team support, and sets "better" at solo-ing. But we should do away with the fact that some sets are not just "worse" at solo-ing or team support, they are "worlds-apart" from their brethen in the same categories. -
The question that I am wondering though is ; would these types of changes violate the "cottage rule".
The devs HAVE increased numbers in the past, they have "added" new mechanics to existing powers (resistance in Super Reflexes). So I think the answer is NO, but what do the devs think regarding the improvements (too many to count) suggested for sets like FF (and others). -
Quote:Good Luck on this project EG. I played an Energy/Dev blaster up to 47 and eventually went away from Devices for the following reasons;Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I actually hadn't planned on taking trip mine anyway. I like the thrill of attacking a spawn directly. I hope to be able to play this alt at +0/x8 eventually. That's going to take some work, but it will probably be more fun than my godmode Fire/Shield Scrapper.
Extra damage was available with huge setup time, which got to be very annoying. Devices on the whole was very "defensive". Caltrops, all by itself, was huge amounts of mitigation, but after several respecs, I found that my toon only had 3 powers from the secondary that were being used, and one was web grenade, which I dont like much either. Basically, Devices is the most "lacking" in synergy within it's own set, and depending on your playstyle, will not even be fully leveraged, especially on teams.
I came too late to the thread to offer my choice, but would share it anyway. If this were my project, Electric/Devices would have been at or near the top of the list. Electric blast wants to be in melee range, while devices will create separation in a spawn. The lack of a buildup in devices, lack of a T3 blast in electric, and lack of any way to boost short circuit's draining abilities would make for a very "un-wieldy" combination in my mind. I think Psi has a measurably higher amount of control than Electric as well, but I cannot seem to play Psi blast for long due to the sound effects.
Let us know how this project goes
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Along the lines of Forcefields (as well as other 1 trick pony support sets ::cough:: Sonic ::cough)), I think the devs really have only 2 options;
1) Make the set(s) better at what they already do, or..
2) Add secondary effects to existing powers, creating more diversification
If you were to take a vote, I am sure the overwhelming majority are going to say Option #2.
The real issue is getting a consensus on what the set(s) should get and convincing the Developers that they need these improvements.
One question that has always been brought to mind regarding this; would adding a new secondary effect to a power, without changing it from a toggle to click, or vice versa, really be a violation of the Cottage Rule.
For example, lets say we increased the damage on Force Bolt to be equivalent to, say, Neutron Bolt, and then ALSO added a "stun" effect or short duration Debuff (My personal choice). Would this "break" the rules.
If you ask me, the answer is clearly NO, but I am not sure that the Devs have actually answered that question.
thoughts ? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Schismatrix
A few of my Defenders have also gotten use out of the Mind Over Body and Dominate APP.
World of Confusion's only really effective uses are set mule and toggle costume aura.
Dominate and Mind over Body are very decent powers. -
This idea is a little "off-topic", so I apologize, and perhaps something that has previously been brought up by the players, but here goes;
Something that would be nice for the Devs to consider regarding the "parity" issues between sets and under-performers in particular would be adding a 10th power to every primary and secondary powerset. You may be thinking that I mean adding a tier 10 power, but in reality, I am saying to ADD ONE NEW POWER anywhere in the tiers, thus creating 10 tiers.
This would add two powers to each potential build so we could address that with two more power picks like so: 1,1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34 ,36,38,40,42,44,47,49
Then we would need to add back in the 6 slots we just lost, so gain 3 slots starting at level 19. This would allow for the two extra powers while keeping the same number of enhancement slots, but with the added bonus of making the 20-30 range feel less "slot-hungry" and the 33-50 range feel less "slot-heavy".
The reason why I feel this approach can solve many powerset issues is two-fold;
A) This allows the devs to add a new power to every Powerset that does not have to contend with the "cottage rule". Underperforming sets get a more powerful "new" power, while more balanced/powerful sets would get a power that could me more situational or designed to fill-in gaps in the sets which are "well-known" (Electric Blast not having a powerful third blast, for instance).
B) It gives the devs a very reasonable excuse for re-arranging powers that perhaps need to be opened sooner or later in builds. Everyone knows that each powerset has a common perspective for whether it is "late" blooming or "early", so powers could be swapped around with some small amount of "impunity" since everyone is going to get NEW TOYS.
Just something on my wish list.
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Quote:That's because most Empathy players have moved on to more powerful sets that solo well and are decent team players. There are only a few folks left that bother coming to the boards and talking about them. Plus the monthly, Healorz threads are ones that I completely stay out of because the whole attitude is so beneath me to waste time arguing with people that don't understand how to play Empathy properly or have an "anti-healer" bias.Originally Posted by InOnePiece
It's surprising to me that Empathy isn't listed more in this thread. I feel like it gets bashed regularly on these boards, especially at higher levels.
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Quote:Originally Posted by JayboH
I might be wrong, but honestly I think this set would be better received if the AOE output went up a little instead. I know people want Voltaic gone and a short range high burst attack, but I like a little flavor. Bump Ball Lightning and Short Circuit up a little IMO, and it's done.
Your thoughts are pretty close to mine. I would prefer a third attack to Voltaic, but they could bump Tesla up to Lightning Bolt damage and folks like me that dont want a pet would get the third attack we desire.
Raising Ball lightning's damage doesn't seem necessary, but definitely Short Circuit damage should be raised. The long animation and the difficulty in slotting this power are such that giving a 33% - 50% damage boost would REALLY help Electric Blast out. -
Some of you know exactly what I will say before the post is even read, but just have to keep saying it; EMPATHY
There are very, very, few powersets in the game that have as much trouble solo as Empathy.
For a controller, it is less noticeable due to the amount of Miitgation the primary can afford, but on a Defender, Empathy has ONE power to preserve itself for the early levels. And only 3 of the 9 Powers in its arsenal have any benefit solo.
Understandably, powersets will all run the gamut of success solo, and Empathy (in practice and in theory) comes across as a very group oriented powerset. But to take such a hard hit solo, whilst many of its support set brethen solo extremely well and still provide great benefits to a team is rather "unsupportable". Especially when you look at the most recent addition to the "support" family of Time Manipulation. Its time to look at Empathy again. I cannot even remember the last change to the set. The last one I can think of is the change to the Auras to a longer recharge, followed very soon by ED and GDN. Both of which kicked Empathy right in the *pancakes* as a solo set.
many, many threads have been discussed by the players of how to help Empathy, so no need to re-hash these ideas here. Bottom line, to change Empathy would, most likely, involve breaking the 'precious' cottage rule, so this is why it has remained largely unchanged. I would like this set to get a review and revamp that maintains its desired goal of support, but allows an Empath some "realistic" solo-ability closer to the middle of the support pack. Am not asking for Radiation or Time level survivability, but something better 'can' and should be done to the set. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I must not have been clear. I have yet to see evidence that either of the following are true:
1. Tanks are out of balance and need help.
2. Tanks are not popular.
Completely agree with this post. If we were to take a Vote; I LOVE Tankers, they are not out of balance in the game, in fact, if anything (dare I say it), Tanks are a bit overpowered.... uhm, nope they are just fine. Thanks
For JB, if you really want to see a low damage AT, try soloing a defender who has not +dmg or -res buffs/debuffs. Now that is slow. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Tater Todd
They should Raise the Aggro Cap ONLY for tankers and once the Tanker passes the old Aggro Cap he should have a high chance to generate Absorb for every extra mob that is pass the old cap...I think this can be achieved by having the New Gauntlet power grant absorb only after 12-16 baddies are surrounding the tank (sorry, I forgot what how high the agrro cap is). Also make it so that Gauntlet works with a few more powers but I think if you raise the aggro cap for tanks and add absorb this will help Tanks be more...well Tanky.
I could get behind a buff to taunt. They could have taunt effect 16 targets max instead of 5 and Tankers would get a huge buff for their role. Hmmm, am I reversing my opinion here ? :/ -
Have seen alot of folks talking about Tankers and with the exception of certain powersets under-performing (ICE) or unpopular for mechanical reasons (STONE), Tankers are just fine to me.
I have never played a more survivable AT in any game (let alone this one) and they have a solid group role. If your argument is that the group role is not as "starkly" differentiated, then you should review ALL group roles in this game. Other MMOs have a clear "role-brand" for each AT. COX, not so much.
Tankers are just fine.
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Quote:I LIKE how you think !!Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Tankers have a stackability problem. They are an AT designed with team utility in mind, but that role is quickly saturated. Worse, it can easily be saturated by an AT that does far more damage. To me, Tankers are actually among the worst off of the low-ish damage ATs because when other low damage ATs get together their low damage justifies itself. Tankers are the only AT where I personally feel pressured to leave the team after more than 3 join. Some people just want to increase the defense or offense of the AT, but IMO the problem is actually that Brutes and Tankers are too directly comparable in very simplistic terms and need to be pushed away from each other. The difference needs to harder to quantify than just "one has more defense, one has more offense."
Defenders and Corruptors also overlap to the point of uncomfortableness. They need to be pushed apart. Specifically, I am personally somewhat doubtful that Defenders actually fulfill their intended role as "ultimate support." They come across to me more like the Bard class of CoX, Jack of all Tradeoffs. I personally feel that the Defender AT should be pushed in a direction that is essentially Tanker: the AT that, with its superior buffs, is also the squishy that is most personally armored. The current set up makes this half true for a couple of powersets but it really isn't all that impressive in practice. I would push Defenders toward more classic D&D Clerics: not only good support, but good support wearing plate armor that adds significant (not just a couple of percentage points) survivability relative to the more mage-y types.
[Not that it's possible now, but if we were able to do Corruptors over from scratch, I would have made them Assault/Support instead of Blast/Support, removed the Assault utility power (Power Boost, Drain Psi etc) and replaced it with one power from each Control set (probably along the lines of Fire: Flashfire, Ice: Ice Slick, Earth: Earthquake, Plant/Thorns: Creepers, Psi: Terrify, Energy/Grav: Wormhole, and Elec: Synaptic Overload). Defenders would keep their blasts, and drop Aim in favor of a relevant Controller pet for them to support.]
Although I would say drop Defender AIM in favor of a Toggle power granting Resist/Defense and moderate status protection.
To throw my hat in the ring, ALL ATs that use the support powersets (Def, Cor, Cont, MM) need help, but it is more of a parity problem than an AT specific problem. Everyone knows how each 'support' powerset has varied effectiveness while solo and grouped. I still believe and will always feel that another pass of Defender primaries is due. Especially now, after they have released such a grossly powerful set like "Time Manipulation". It make no sense to have sets like Empathy, Sonic and whichever set is third worst at soloing continue as they are, regardless of how they help a group.
There are sets which solo well AND bring massive group benefits. -
Quote:Hence the reason that I have been saying, keep saying, and will keep believing that Empathy needs a revisit of its powers (with an eye towards the solo-ability). Added to this list are a couple of other powersets like Sonic. The devs can put up flashscreen messages about some powersets being more suited to group play all they want, but eventually the only empaths around will be new players coming from traditional MMOs where healers are 'THE' support style, or dusty 'shelved' toons that the player in charge has moved on to some other 'well-balanced' for group AND solo play character.Originally Posted by Beauregard
The one constant in every team you join is you. So whenever you think about what a buff/debuff set provides, don't try to imagine what you'll be doing for other people. Think about what it does for you.
Unfortunately far too many players spend all their time imagining what other people need - and their imagination doesn't match reality.
People simply don't structure their build around the idea that they'll have an Empathy Defender strapped to their hip. They need enough recovery to run their defenses and attack without the benefit of Recovery Aura. They need enough recharge to run their attack cycle cycle without the benefit of Adrenalin Boost. They need enough defenses to survive their fighting style without Fortitude.
And, of course, they need to take a small enough amount of damage that they can operate without Absorb Pain.
Now, builds like this were impossible in the original CoH and still are at low levels. But past the DFB levels, Empathy Defenders will increasingly find their role to be as a Blaster rather than a 'healer'. And Empathy is horrible self-support for a Blaster. It has decent self-healing, a bit of extra self-recovery, and that's it.
Now take that same Empathy Defender and flip them into a Pain Domination Corruptor. You've got the same self-healing benefit. But you've also got a host of +damage abilities some additional resistance and -def/-res debuffs - and it's coupled to much greater native firepower.
does that sound bitter ? Only 7+ years of Empaths are fine as is, when I know they are not. YRMV -
Its funny to see everyone's order of preference for what to T4.
For me it seems to depend heavily on your character. My main wanted T3 first for destiny, but the first T4 that I wanted was Interface. After watching my Son grow thru the Incarnate powers to fully T4'd, it seems certainly worth doing it, but not until you;
A) Get everything to T3
B) Decide which slots are the most important for your toon to get to T4
My Order of preference will always depend on the particular toon, but Biospark's order is ;
Interface, Alpha, Judgement, Destiny, Lore
*dont underestimate the value of the interface proc rates, they are dramatically better from T3 to T4 * -
To me the HULK is a SS/INV brute.
Brute simply because the fury mechanic is tailor-made for the concept.
Invuln because against anything but PSI, there is nothing that comes close to the protection level except stone, which would not fit the concept. And I do believe that a PSI weakness is appropriate for him.
Also, both WP and INV have a means of boosting HPs, which makes sense for this concept, but with perma-DP a Brute would have massively higher HPS than anything but a Tanker.
INV/SS Tanker would obviously be my second choice, but when I think of the hulk, the amount of carnage he can dish out is one of the first things that come to mind. Then, secondly, how tough he is.
Invulnerability all the way. -
YEP ! Would love to attend that panel, but just cannot manage it with my job right now.
My idea, if any devs are watching would be Origin as a theme. Most powersets are not designed around any of the origins per se (although Traps and Devices make for good "TECH" powersets.), but you could actually use any of the origins as a basic theme for powersets of all types.
How would you do Magic. Well, my vote would be to go elemental. Fits closely with the Circle of Thorns. Lets consider a Blast set called Magical Blast.
Tier One : Ice Bolt
Tier Two : Fire Blast
Tier Three : AoE Earth power (Fault, Tremor etc...)
etc...
Mix all four elements and you have easy to make powersets. Even better would be to make it like the Epic ATs and allow you to choose different powers at each tier to allow maximum customization of your attacks. Player 1 chooses Flares at T1, and Lightning Bolt at T2, while player 2 chooses Ice Bolt at T1 and and Fire Sword at T2.
This could even lead to 5 new ATs.
The Magician (Choices of Magical powers at each tier)
The Mad Scientist (Science)
The Cosmic Hero (Mutation)
The Inventor (Choices of Technology powers at each tier)
The Renaissance Hero (Choices of natural powers at each tier, Guns, Blades, Bows etc..) -
I have seen new AT suggestions many times (even made some myself).
Sign me up for Melee/Support, but to make it work the character would need either some form of protection to survive the early levels like a single resist or defense toggle and/or a few more HPs.
One of my last suggestions was to make two new ATs (one Villain and one Hero side).
The Hero side AT was called Protector, with Assault primary (Dominator sets) and Support secondary (Defender primary sets). The inherent was going to give status protection or increased damage based on teammates. The inherent could be tweaked many ways.
The Villain AT was going to be called "Trickster" and would have Assault primaries and defense secondaries (like Brutes/Scrappers). This would be kind of a hybrid Dominator of sorts, because the inherent was going to be something like a swap ammo power but with each option giving a different mezz effect as a proc off your attacks. You could choose,for instance, stun, confuse, hold, KB, sleep etc.. You could have some interesting strategy and fun with this. -
Quote:Actually, in the last coffee talk, Synapse was discussing this very thing with "Z". It seems VERY likely that more AT-specific sets could be in the works.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Not to rain on the parade but it might be premature to assume that there will be new sets of ATOs. It's true that the super pack is referred to as "Super Pack #1," but its full name is "Super Pack #1: Heroes and Villains." To me that says that the ATOs were essentially the special theme for this pack and it will be something different next time around. I've been wrong before and I'm not saying it could never happen, just don't get your hopes too high for it happening soon.
As far as what I would like to see, I am still testing the effectiveness and usefulness of the ones that we just got, but since my main is a Defender, this is where I would offer some ideas.
Since the current Set works in Attack powers, the next set for Defenders should be a buff/debuff style Set. How they could manage this would be a challenge, but it would have to be similar to the Controller/Dominator sets where you enhance a large range of categories like ; healing, to-hit, +def, +res, plus all the debuff categories. Allow it to enhance Recharge, Endurance and Accuracy and it could be put in nearly any primary defender power. Since the proc for the first set is a PBAoE heal, the next proc could be a PBAoE damage effect.
That would be my guess.