Bill Z Bubba

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So here's the real question:

Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?

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From my point of view, no not really. While I do place a high value on this type of analysis, I still feel it still requires too many assumptions to make a clear cut statement of Brutes = Scrappers or one is superior to the other. I recognized you are partly addressing concerns brought in the first thread.

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Let me rephrase the question:

Even with the assumptions in place (and I'm unsure what assumptions could be further reduced or removed,) shouldn't this analysis show enough parity between the damage output of the two archetypes that we can dismiss the topic?

As for higher mitigation for brutes, I've already stated that I agree. I think brutes and scrappers should have an equal 80% cap.

EDIT: HelinCarnate makes a good point, though. On teams fury generation can be greatly impaired. But on those same teams, they're more likely to be buffed mitigation-wise. That may be the balance point.

So here's the real question:

Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?

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You're quite right about Stone Melee atleast, a chain of SS, SF, HM, SM, SF, HB, SF, HM, SS, SF, SM, HM, SF, HB, SF, SM gets 159 DPS, placing it in second place. Needs two recharge in everything but Hurl Boulder, that needs none. Might be better chains, I might have made a mistake. Now for Super Strength....

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You dropped the enhanced damage accordingly correct? Geeez, that's a long chain.

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I think it's very interesting for Brutes, Energy Melee beats Super Strength by 30 DPS.

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I think SS and SM's lowish performance is due to the crappy attack chains I have for them.

If anyone can tighten any of the chains up using the same lvl 50 basic IOs only rule, I'd be happy to adjust the spreadsheet.

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The guy have a concept for a character that's going to be very good. Telling him not to do it just because another character is better doesn't make sense. If the guy wanted a FoTM character, he'd just have checked the last 395485984358 posts about it.

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dude... nothing kills a "concept character" like sets that dont gel together. EMs mitigation is massively tragic and fire armours defences are not awesome to say the least, the heal is but you cant fire that off during animations and standing there in TF and ETs massive long animations watching yourself die because its unable to fire isnt fun. Thats probably the main downside, fires mitigation is in its heal and that cannot function during the glacial attacks.

He asked how they fit together, and the answer is BADLY. If he wants EM he wants a non-interactive secondary like WP or SR, if he wants fire armour he wants FAST firing animations like DM/FM/SM so he is able to react and utilise its main mitigation power.

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EM/FA brute was my first villain. He's been 50 for a long time.

What Icesickle states is true, but you can do things to help yourself out.

#1 is GW's PPP for Darkest Night and Gloom.

#2 3 KB protection IOs, 1 each in the two main toggles, another in tough or weave.

#3 Tough and Weave to stack onto the base armors and darkest night.

#4 Use burn's fear as mitigation

#5 Take hasten and stock WAY up on SetIO +recharge bonuses

#6 Learn to predict incoming damage so that you can queue up healing flames during ET/TF animations

EDIT: But even with all of that, you'll be one of the weakest brutes walking. Playing mine right now. He compared to my claws/sr and sucks compared to my sm/wp that only has basic IOs. And the em/fa is rather heavily IOed.

3 targets for Soul Drain. Figured since we were going for middle of the road performance, that was the way to go.

I also used 7.5% crit rate unless the power specifically called for a higher rate. I did give Storm Kick at 15% chance, although it probably should have been only 12.5% to keep with the other averaging. I might fix that later but for the purposes of this run, I think it matters little. EDIT: And looking at the numbers, MA gets a worse rap than it probably should.

Here we go again!
On the last run, there were complaints that gloom was problematic due to its rather high DPA. No problem. All power pool attacks are now ignored.

Others stated that such high recharge rates were unrealistic. Fair enough. Now only level 50 basic IOs are used. No hasten.

Most attacks are slotted 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam

Several high recharge are slotted 1acc/1end-red/2rec-red/2dam

Buffs (blindingfeint, followup, rage, souldrain, buildup) have 3 rec-red

I did not include DualBlade combos

I did include Quills for Spines (1end-red/3dam)

Brutes on average do 3.177% more damage than scrappers.

Scrapper SS is 11.626% better than Brute SS. This is due to rage being almost perma and granting a higher buff plus scrapper AT mod being higher.

Brute FM does 15.606% more damage than Scrap FM because the extra DoT damage is affected by fury but not affected by criticals.

Similar issue with Spines.

Here is the much cleaner spreadsheet.

And here's the new chart:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Powerset DPS EPS

Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Brute Energy 157.5 3.3
Scrap Energy 151 3.3
Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9
Brute Claws 149.5 2.9
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1
Brute Warmace 148 3.7
Brute Dark 143.7 3.1
Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6
Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9
Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1
Scrap Martial Arts 141.5 3.6
Scrap Warmace 141 3.7
Brute Stone 137.5 3.5
Scrap Dual Blades 136.3 3.5
Brute Dual Blades 134.8 3.5
Scrap Stone 131.8 3.5
Brute Katana 131.2 3.2
Brute Battleaxe 129.3 3.2
Scrap Katana 128.6 3.2
Brute Strength 127.3 2.9
Brute Broadsword 124.9 3.1
Scrap Battleaxe 123.3 3.2
Scrap Broadsword 121.7 3.1
Brute Electric 106.6 2.9
Scrap Electric 103.6 2.9
Brute Spines 93.4 1.6
Scrap Spines 80.1 1.6
</pre><hr />

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I had all my chains built and began working on the new DPS calculations when I realized I had made a rather serious flaw in chain building logic.

I had slotted every attack 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam.

However, none of us would do that if dropping a dam for a recharge would tighten up our chains.

So... I'm starting all over tomorrow on the chains and adjusting all 14 of them to tighten them up.

This means that when I am doing the DPS calculations, instead of the easy .9908 (using lvl 50 basic IOs) across the board for damage, I'm going to have to keep track of the slotting for each attack.

While this will add a great deal of time to the final work, I feel that this is the correct way of going about it.

Especially when considering that with level 50 basic IOs, the loss of 15.76% damage enhancement means a gain of 40.92% recharge reduction enhancement when changing from 1/1/1/3 to 1/1/2/2 slotting.

Followup, Blinding Feint, Buildup, Soul Drain and Rage will all have 3 rec-reds.

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If you are going with such high recharge, I would assume someone has at least Frankenslotted the chain?

Let me suggest this as a base line fore melee:

5 Focused Smite set and a Smashing Haymaker Dam/End/Rec. Every single recipe is between 5000-25000 and cheaper than buying standard IO recipes from the university. None use rare salvage.

Acc 61.54, Dam 95.97, End 60.59, Recharge 78.90

To customize you can either swap to a Smashing Haymaker Dam/Rech to tweak Recharge up to 83.03 or even regular Recharge IO to tweak recharge to 93.77 and damage down to 86.30. That's for Follow Up or other attacks where high recharge is better than damage.

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Negative. SetIOs are not allowed in Take 2 of this little exercise.

And round 2 is posted!

I had all my chains built and began working on the new DPS calculations when I realized I had made a rather serious flaw in chain building logic.

I had slotted every attack 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam.

However, none of us would do that if dropping a dam for a recharge would tighten up our chains.

So... I'm starting all over tomorrow on the chains and adjusting all 14 of them to tighten them up.

This means that when I am doing the DPS calculations, instead of the easy .9908 (using lvl 50 basic IOs) across the board for damage, I'm going to have to keep track of the slotting for each attack.

While this will add a great deal of time to the final work, I feel that this is the correct way of going about it.

Especially when considering that with level 50 basic IOs, the loss of 15.76% damage enhancement means a gain of 40.92% recharge reduction enhancement when changing from 1/1/1/3 to 1/1/2/2 slotting.

Followup, Blinding Feint, Buildup, Soul Drain and Rage will all have 3 rec-reds.

*ASSISTANCE NEEDED*

Folks, how does one figure out optimal attack chains?

We saw that allowing the pause for Headsplitter/Hack/Disembowel/pause/Hack was better than going HS/Hack/Dis/Slice.

What methodology can I use besides flat out trial and error to get the best chains possible using only single target attacks (and cones of &lt;90degrees) for all the melee primaries with each power only getting 42.4?

I'm not asking for the chains themselves, but rather a methodology that could then be used across the board for all attack sets.

As Powerforge just pointed out, had I had aidself when I soloed the ITF, I could have finished it. Autohit fluffy be damned.

Umm, LH, she's gone, dude. She just forgot to turn off PMs.

I'm already working on Take 2.

The problem with removing gloom from the available powers for brutes is the fact that it is available.

The problem with leaving it in is that it appears to me to be somewhat overpowered and can easily be used as quite the impressive crutch filler. Like aid self.

But I AM going to yank it for my second take on this study. I'm not going to allow ANY pool powers.

The slotting for every attack will be level 50 basic IOs with 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam

Chains will be created only using the attacks from the set. If that means using those nasty tier1 attacks we all hate, so be it.

That'll be part one of take 2.

Part 2 of take 2 will be porting all remaining non-ported sets from one side to the other.

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All characters in the game are expected to overcome the same challenges, to reach the same ends. The endurance used to achieve the same ends should be comparable, regardless of AT or power set. That's balanced. Standing around unable to act is not fun, whether it be because of stuns or holds, or because of excessive endurance costs.

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And those that choose to solo should build their characters for soloing and use tactics that work for soloing.

You've chosen to fail at both of those with your defender.

But I wish to help.

Hover is a waste or AirSup is a waste. Chose one.

If you choose hover:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|4A694A14C6C0A698B919D0FE02BF81A2AF1E1EA9CCE80B7B8 D249FAFDD373CEFCF3|
|677AF74D9B908753A254CF223F4DBD261DD378449352CF0F5 9400C42C8DE4AF31AF|
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|C02342061ED0026C6013A80235600BD80676807DE009C8DF0 1CD37F66E|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|</pre><hr />

Then Hover. And blast. Detention field one enemy, kill the second, get to work on the third.

If you go air sup instead, detention field 1, airsup 2 and blast 3.

If you wish to solo, don't build like a team player.

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Let's try this again...
I just don't see myself playing any melee sets without having Tough -&gt; Weave

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FTFM.

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ET, EP, Gloom, EP, BS, EP, Gloom ftw

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I'm showing that chain to do 2 DPS less than ET, Gloom, BS, TF and cost .2 EPS more.

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Forgot you don't consider procs. Well with procs in a fast a decent DPA, fast animation, fast recharge attack, over time it ends up doing more.

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Roger that.

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How are they dealing without the self heal?

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I'm at the softcap with tough, passive scaling dam-res, 356% regeneration and 138.4% max HP.

While other folks are using aid self, I'm ripping someone's intestines out.

I solo pylons without aidself. I solo AVs without aidself. I stay alive in extreme challenges without aidself.

Basically the same dam-res and defense.

I have 122% more regen.
You have 25% more more global recharge
You have 13% more global damage

The absolute amazement in boxing is a nice touch.

Nice job, Iggy.

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IF he was aiming to compare ATs the use of those powers would be a huge foul that would compromise everything.

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And you're the mind reader now? You know he's not using them on his scrapper?

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I also think I noted another option about simply IF he wanted to play defensively. I just state IFs, all though, do question the final tactics used.

Let me put it in even shorter words as my pervious one again seem to have been too verbose:

He used the wrong powers for the situation. Test is inaccurate and irrelevant.


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Translation: His build sucks.

Stop wasting my time.

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IF he was aiming to compare ATs the use of those powers would be a huge foul that would compromise everything.

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And you're the mind reader now? You know he's not using them on his scrapper?

Ultimo has a long history, and he's not alone here, of leaving out or flatly ignoring information if it suits his cause to do so.

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It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission.

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Your defender is poorly built.

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You read minds? Not to be offensive but we know his defender was played way too defensively, we don't know if he had more attacks but choose these to play it safe. Based on the last time I played my defender (way too long ago) i would say such tactic was overkill against minions but would had been required against bosses (certain bosses even if they went down to lt as I had big issues with certain power selection more than the rank damage itself.)

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Starsman, the fact that you're even attempting to defend a build/player that states it took him over 3 hours to get through a mission on heroic with ANYTHING makes me sad.

If he had stated it was a custom mission with nothing but thugs/pain mastermind EBs, then I could show some tolerance. But mooks? On heroic?

For a player that's been around long enough to have sands of mu and the wand or staff?

There's so much BS in that statement that he's going to need a landmover the size of a small stadium to dig himself out of it.

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It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission.

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Your defender is poorly built.

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ET, EP, Gloom, EP, BS, EP, Gloom ftw

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I'm showing that chain to do 2 DPS less than ET, Gloom, BS, TF and cost .2 EPS more.

Fark a video. Post the damn build. That's 228.2 DPS.

Now the $100 question. Get those same buffs you're using for that build and dump them into a dm/sd build with portals popping SD/AAO fuel.

What's that DPS going to hit?

Second run I gave up at 6:22 when the pylon was barely at 50% health.

This chain sucks and isn't getting anywhere near what our calculations are showing.

I'm beginning to seriously doubt the belief that the two different types of DR debuff procs stack.