Auroxis
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Both Havoc Punch and Fire Blast shouldn't belong in a top attack chain. Charged Brawl and Jacobs Ladder are better attacks in terms of damage per activation.Originally Posted by Supermax
Thanks guys. I definitely can't afford a very expensive build. So I'll play around with it. I fear that I won't have enough recharge to have a seamless chain with just punch+fireblast+CI. -
Quote:Not the case in AV fights. 20% -res does more than 80 or so extra DPS for total team DPS, in most team situations.Originally Posted by mauk2
(shrug)
So what?
The team benefits from hueg broot SMASH just as much (way more) than they do from tanker bruising, becuz in a team, I promise you, there are waaaay more debuffs flying than the tank's tier 1 itch-scratcher.
Let's assume the team as a whole has 1000 DPS and 80% -res. If you add 80 DPS the team's total damage becomes 1080*1.8=1944. If you add 20% -res the team DPS becomes 1000*2=2000. This is all assuming the team has significant resistance debuffing going on, which in my experience isn't common. In the meanwhile extra damage got more common with things like Judgement and Lore. -
1. Both are good(relative to your other options), but Chain Induction is a better attack.
2. Some people go for Musculature Radial for the endmod and damage, but you can never go wrong with Spiritual.
3. Aiming for +Def and +Rech is always good on an Elec Armor character, and you can certainly reach your goals.
Here's an endgame Elec/Elec build I have(warning, too expensive):
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Quote:Lore pets aren't perma though, else there would be very little reason to play anything other than defenders(and it would suck becoming a pet based AT, not what I signed up for).Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is to me!
Here are my feelings about pets and defenders and corruptors.
At least I was not crazy when I said what I said 2 years ago. -
Quote:Now let's not assume everyone is damage capped, and take into consideration that the team benefits from bruising as well.Originally Posted by mauk2
Tanks start at 80x1.2=96 and cap at 320 x1.2 = 384 (w/bruising)
Brutes start at 75 and can cap at 581. That's 197 more damage than a tanker. (!!!) -
Quote:I will always, always buff Vicky over a blaster in an AV fight. The extra DPS the team gets is much more significant. Outside of AV fights, in normal play, the Blaster will have AB on him all the time so he can nuke freely.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
One thing I find modestly sad is that many defenders may actually choose to buff their Lore pets instead of teammates. If you are using your AB to buff Vicki's damage instead of blaster A, that kind of makes me sad.
Once on a large team/league, my scrapper's Lore pets are likely gonna be buffed to the gills too, so while it is true it is the defender/controller/corruptor/MM doing the buffing, the scrapper and his pet is still bringing tons of damage. I am not really seeing the Lore pets as evening the playing field even after 50, although I do agree they are a nice power and very useful.
I don't like the "once in a league everything is buffed to the max so nothing matters" approach, but hey, YMMV. -
Quote:Dark Melee is awesome, and Martial Arts needs a buff regardless of AT.Originally Posted by Jibikao
You are more than welcome to get the Stalker version which has a bit stronger Eagle Claw with ZERO aoe attack. :P
But seriously, the dev may need to buff a bit for Tankers. Is Dark Melee different? -
Quote:It'll be even worse for tankers unless they get some kind of addition, assuming its only unique feature on scrappers(extra crits) won't be available.Originally Posted by Jibikao
How's Martial Arts on Tanker? It doesn't look very good on paper.
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Quote:Not really a fair comparison. We're not at a weight-lifting contest.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It absolutely matters. It's the difference between saying "I can lift a metric ton" and "I can lift a metric ton using a series of pullies" - one implies personal power, the other not so much.
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Quote:You're too hung up on the fact that Incarnate powers are not AT powers. That's not something that matters when asking the question of "How much damage can your character contribute?". Everyone can get lore pets, sure, but defenders get the most out of lore pets.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Indeed, I did. And before being questioned further, I expanded on what I meant by "the same way". The overarching point being that none of those things is actually a buff to Defenders, despite the fact that they can increase the Defender's damage (or vice versa depending on POV).
That is an insignificant difference in their damage contribution as regards defenders. Because they work that way for everyone. What's significant with Defenders is the multiplicative effects of their buffs/debuffs in the presence of more friendly entities contributing to damage. The fact that they are exterior to the Defender AT, is what makes them *not* a buff to Defenders. They're just something that everyone can get.
Of course, that multiplicative effect (be it with pets or teammates) is probably why the Devs will ever be loathe to actually buff Defenders' damage.
They can be more beneficial than teammates during their uptime. Their base numbers are greater than any character, which means they benefit more out of buffs than actual characters, especially considering they are affected by recharge buffs(something temp pets aren't).Quote:Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Unless I'm mistaken, they don't actually benefit any more than teammates. And if you want to argue ease of use, I'll point out that I find it far easier to get on teams than to craft Incarnate stuff. Which is to say I can foresee getting on a team just about any time I play, whereas I don't foresee ever being able to craft Incarnate stuff. And I'll probably have more Temp Pets before ever getting an Incarnate ability, too.
As far as finding a team being easier than crafting a pet, that's not the same thing at all. The lore pets are an addition, not a replacement. -
Quote:It's not fair to ignore lore pets when they benefit the most from buffs and debuffs, something defenders excel at. Like I said earlier in the thread:Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I, for one, am not saying that Lore pets are not a useful tool. Just that they are seperate from the AT, and thus of limited relevance to questions of balance within the AT. Which is to say that AT x isn't doing enough damage simply because exterior tool y (be it temporary powers, pool powers, IOs, or inspirations) allows them to overcome their AT's limitations.
That doesn't necessarily make it less amusing to solo SS4 Rula-don with a Six-proc of Brawl by popping your Lore pets, a basket of inspirations, and 14 temporary powers - just less relevant to AT balance discussions.
Quote:Originally Posted by AuroxisFact is that defenders, due to their buff/debuff nature, get more out of lore pets than any other AT.
Your scrapper with lore pets might come close to that time or even surpass it, but the fact that defenders can now match a scrapper pylon time is proof enough that defender damage got a significant buff through lore pets.
Think of it like this. In the final AV fight in Lambda for example, not only will I have scrapper level DPS, I also contribute more to the team's damage+survivability through buffs and debuffs. -
Quote:You said:Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I never said they were identical. I said that they buff defender damage in the same way. And then I noted that all of them "are entities apart from the Defender's powersets that can enable the multiplicative effects of the Defender's buffs/debuffs." Nowhere did I say they are identical. Whether they are identical is, indeed, a moot point within the scope of the titular issue.
They're not. You cannot summon teammates with a click of a button regardless of how many players are in your team, and control them like pets. Therefore their damage contribution is significantly different.Quote:Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Lore pets are a buff to Defender damage in the same way that team mates are a buff to Defender damage. -
Quote:That's not what you're saying though. You're saying lore pets are identical to teammates, not that they share defining aspects.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I'm sorry, but it is inarguably a defining aspect of all of them. One that is particularly pertinent to the titular issue.
You can, however, say that they're both fruit and anyone who disagreed with you on the point would look quite foolish. -
Quote:Once I can summon teammates wherever I want with a click of a button, can have them regardless of how many people I have in a team or how many charges I have left, and control them like pets, then they'd be identical to lore pets.Originally Posted by Silas
No, he's right. Lore pets having good damage != the Defender has good damage. If they were permanent, maybe. But you can only have them out a third of the time.
Actually, maybe he is wrong. You can have teammates almost all the time, unlike Lore pets
Do you think the following statement makes sense?: "A nuke has good damage != the defender has good damage. If you could use a nuke all the time, maybe. But you can only fire it off every 2 minutes or so."
Not a great example though as most defender nukes don't contribute as much damage as lore pets do. -
Quote:That's not the definition of either lore pets or temporary pets and teammates, sorry.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Lore pets are entities apart from the Defender's powersets that can enable the multiplicative effects of the Defender's buffs/debuffs. Just like temporary pets and teammates.
You can't compare apples to oranges, and then say apples are the same as oranges because both are round and juicy. -
Quote:Wrong.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Lore pets are a buff to Defender damage in the same way that team mates are a buff to Defender damage.
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Quote:It was quite a while ago.Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Can you elaborate on this? I must have missed something in patchnotes since I don't remember reading about a change to this proc.
The FF +Rech proc was once nerfed so it didn't give you the buff nearly as much as it does now. The change was reversed. -
The most recent buffs FA has received:
1. AE lets FA characters easily survive top end content.
2. Consume got better.
3. Burn got a lot better.
4. Fiery Embrace became amazing.
5. Destiny can shore up FA's weaknesses.
The most recent buffs SS has received:
The Force Feedback +rech proc got restored to its former glory. -
Quote:Doesn't help that the ST damage isn't that amazing either.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Probably because in an era where AoE damage is in such demand, a set that only gets one pathetic AoE attack isn't very sought after.
I don't see very many Energy Melee Tanks or Brutes anymore either. -
Quote:Yes this is a game. It's also a game that rewards effort and diligence, and that's something some "want it nao" people don't understand. Simply put, people who are willing to spend significant time playing the game should get rewarded appropriately.Originally Posted by Scirion
This is a game. We are intended to have fun. You only have to "work" (or grind, take your pick on terms, they're the same, as far as I am concerned. But, that's my personal opinion) to get better performance if you have a "MUST HAVE NNNAAAAAOOOO GIVE IT TO ME NAAAOOOO!!!!" attitude. I've spent the last year and a half across two game accounts, and something to the tune of 12 respecs (and three builds with the Incarnate stuff) getting one character to the point where it can do what I want it to do. I'm patient like that.
I'm sure I'll get my Lore or Destiny or whatever on my Defender... Eventually. As soon as I discover that I have enough Notices and Threads accumulated from random gameplay that I can use roughly 100 of them just on the XP to unlock the slot so I don't have to grind trials for it.
I think you'd agree with me that in this game, you don't have to grind to get your uber character, and you don't need an uber character to have fun. -
Quote:The main drawback of bruising is that it doesn't get any more useful with more than one tanker in the team. With teams this is borderline acceptable, but now with leagues? Should the game be designed towards encouraging only one tanker in a group of 24?Originally Posted by JonasAlbrecht
Circuses are fun. This thread, not so much.
Personally, I don't care much about damage. With three melee ATs that specialize in it already, I don't much see the point in making Tankers damage dealers.
That said, with the role of tanking able to be fielded by so many ATs, being the best at it matters less and less. I'd rather see Bruising expanded upon. I'd rather be melee debuff, and team buff. Its not enough to just manage aggro better anymore. Certainly not at times when there are only a few targets.
I would like to see bruising stack from multiple tankers, with diminishing returns of course. -
Quote:One of the big advantages of SS on brutes/tankers is the Rage+Gloom combo. Scrappers have no good single target attacks from APP's, so this might shorten the gap a bit.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Another thing I didn't get into is the fact that without considering the buffs, SS doesn't have many good powers. KO Blow is good and foot stomp is a slightly above average pbaoe due mainly to its extra large radius. Nothing else in the set would make the cut if you were using most other primaries and could add any SS power you wanted to them. Spines and electric melee come to mind as the only melee sets that can't put together a better ST chain than rageless SS. So in that sense, rage constrains you even more as if you fail to keep its timing exact then your efficiency drops commensurately. Most other sets don't actually need to fire BU every time it's available to continue doing good single target damage. They can, of course. Oh, and if we're talking about double stacked rage, which I was, then BU is recharging in 22.5 seconds.
To sum it up, if something stinks I don't need to put it into my mouth to know I won't like it.
Either way SS will be stupid powerful on scrappers, if ported in its current state with the standard modifiers. -
Quote:I guess it makes sense to raise the discussion considering league content is quite new.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
There's always time for inconvenient truths.
.
Maybe you should make a thread about it? If the discussion is held here it'll be a complete thread-jack(not that the thread's really on track as is, but you catch my drift). -
Longbow pets are pretty darn good when soloing GM's. Robotic Drones -regen doesn't really compare.
If you want more info check out Deus's posts here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...130754&page=98 -
Is it really that time already? I thought we had a "Tanker vs. Brute" debate not too long ago.