Holy CRAP, I KNEW there was a reason I waited for other replies to this before I responded... There is more human-form hate/ignorance than I thought possible from some of the biggest "Kheld heavy hitters."
I don't mean to be mean, but I'll have to say, Black Aftermath, that these guys who have given you advice so far
. They're giving advice based on their own dislike of human-form warshades and from what they know on "paper" to be true--many points of which in my (documented and undocumented) *experience* are NOT true. Say, for example, the statement saying that you'd be teleporting into a group only to be walking around mezzed the entire time.
If that WERE true, that would mean that all tri-formers would have the same exact attack chain: 1. teleport in and hit eclipse and 2. switch to dwarf form and fight the rest of the time.
Now, if THAT attack chain were true, that just completely trashes any numbers Darkstar just threw out. You know why? Because just like human form, nova form doesn't have mez protection. And you know what else? If getting mezzed is THAT bad, Darkstar's "double-mire" theory ALSO goes down the drain, because dropping from dwarf down to human form is only going to have you dropping back down into "mezzed" form.
That said, I will say that I do respect Darkstar's and Obsidian's opinion on Khelds, because they have obviously played Khelds for some time, and know enough about them to be helpful. However, I've learned that some of what they say needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because a lot of the numbers they give are based on the "perfect situation" theory.
However, I've proven, not on "paper," but in actual documented experience that a human-form Warshade is not only highly capable of surviving just about any situation (no matter the extremety), a human-former is devastating enough to take down any sort of mob solo,
Now, in the tri-former's defense, I will say you could get the job done *a few seconds faster,* but
gripe I have for any tri-former giving advice on a human-form Kheldian. They are speaking from not only their dislike of human-formers, they're also speaking from only what they know on paper, and not true experience. Or, if they ARE speaking from experience, it sounds as if they are speaking from a
All that said, I will answer your question: No, you are NOT crazy to be excited about having a level 50 human-form Warshade. I can already tell that's the playstyle you prefer, and I can also see you are the sort of person who is willing to pay the influence it takes to make a human-former completely devastating. And by devastating, I mean
I think it's a little hilarious that though the tri-former's main argument is that "OMG, there is a HUGE damage disparity between us!" they forget to note that a human-former can, for example, take down, say, the entire mob in front of Imperious in the same amount of time that it takes the entire rest of the team to take down the mobs on the bridge at the beginning of the map on an iTF.
And, that's just one example. Here's another: Me and another Warshade duo'd the entire last map on the LGTF after the rest of the team had gone. How long did it take us? Surely 4 hours, since "we were walking around mezzed the entire time," right? Nope.
While I'm sure a tri-former would come on here and say "Well, I could do it in 5," it's important to note the MAIN POINT:
If someone wants to make one, it's their decision. Help them or get out of the way. I can admit to a tri-former having better damage and an easier time of leveling... Now can YOU admit that a human-former is not only capable of getting the job done, it can be GOOD at it?
Regardless of whether or not YOU would choose to play a human-former yourself "even if at gunpoint," you
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Are you already 50? The journey to 50 tends to be much easier with the forms.
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Agreed. However, if you choose to play a human-former, it'll be just as fun. Just not as "easy."
It's definitely a challenge. A fun challenge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Comments on the build however:
Put the Steadfast Protection -KB in Absorbtion, with Eclipse you don't need the extra resists so don't need the slots there, so you will free up 2 slots (One from Absorbtion, one from Gravity Shield).
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The more resist you put on Eclipse, the fewer enemies you need to get a capped resist. That's pretty obvious. So, if he's trying to solo on "normal" difficulty settings, that's important to note. On a full team, that'll matter a little less.
It's also important to note that in your build, Eclipse is NOT "perma." It has a full eleven second downtime, which is devastating in any difficult/overwhelming situation. Therefore, for that reason alone, I would consider a "non-perma Eclipse" human-only build a complete "phail." Not really the smartest way to slot eclipse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
You have slotted for defence but missed the opportunity to get BoTZ sets into all the free travel powers.
The human shields are useless with perma-Eclipse. I would swap Gravity Shield for Gravimetric Snare for better set bonus' if you have the slots spare, or the Chance for Hold proc if you don't (When you get hit with -recharge you might have to use it, so the proc could work nicely here)
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I wouldn't say they are completely "useless." I would say they are "less useful." A Gravity Shield is still a better choice (for set bonuses, getting hit with -recharge for a slow eclipse recovery, and the fact that most enemies in the game have smashing/lethal attacks of some kind) than Gravimetric Snare. However, this could be debateable, and could depend on playstyle, and whether or not you want the extra endurance recovery.
On the subject of defense, I'm not sure looking at 15% and 19% defense on a build is
necessarily "slotting for defense." It's more of a "more defense is nice if I can get it," position, not a "I will sacrifice my damage output for more defense" position. While I'll say your 26% defense is better than his 15% defense, I'll also direct you to
this, and mention that it's really
not that much better when looking at the big picture. If you're losing slots or powers that could up your damage/damage mitigation potential just so you can slot for 10% more defense...
...I'd say that belongs in the same category you tri-formers place someone "who doesn't take dwarf form for mez protection."
Nice, but not *necessary for survival*.
In fact, I'll go even further:
In my personal experience (and this has been backed by several accounts on these very forums), the Dwarf form toggle is just a "delay my death for a minute longer" toggle.
Sure, they buffed the forms not too far back, but if you're using Dwarf form as the tri-formers suggest (for mez protection in mez-heavy mobs, or as a "oh crap I need to survive!" button), you're just delaying the inevitable. A dwarf's damage (in any extreme situation) is not going to be enough to "put you over the top." You can't switch to nova for "more damage," because you'll be mezzed, remember? You can't switch to Human-form, because you'll be mezzed, remember?
You could then say "Well, I could use a break free," but, then you're just placing yourself in the same boat as a human-form Warshade.
So, it's either put out some major damage attack chains in human or nova form, or get stuck in lolDwarf form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Eclipse can be frankenslotted with 4 res/end IO's for better numbers.
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Actually, no, it can't. I'm suprised one of the "mathematician" types would even suggest this.
As stated before, your Eclipse is not perma in your posted build. It has a 101.7 second recharge with Hasten. Eclipse's duration is 90 seconds. That's an 11(almost 12)-second downtime.
Now, if you had franken-slotted with Resistance/Recharge IOs instead of Resistance/Endurance IOs, then you'd have a 76.9 second recharge. However, although this may be a *few seconds* faster than slotting it with, say, 1 recharge IO and 4 Impervium Armors, it would not technically be "better numbers," as the franken-slotting would have no set bonuses associated with it, while doing the recharge IO/4 Impervium Armor thing would give you an endurance recovery bonus, up your total Endurance, AND keep your Eclipse "perma."
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Ebon Eye with the Chance for Build Up proc might be good since you will be using it a lot. Though Shadow Bolt is actually a better attack (Faster animation so better DPA) and will recharge faster so help fill your attack chain better.
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No argument here, except I will mention this:
If you've got a +recharge build, and everything is coming up THAT fast (Shadow Blast every 2 seconds, Dark Detonation every 5 seconds, and Gravity Well every 5 or 6 seconds), you'll find that you don't even use your Ebon Eye during an attack chain. Your higher damage power Gravity Well will be back up before you're done using Shadow Blast and Dark Detonation alone.
So, if you're thinking in terms of that, putting more than 1 slot into Ebon Eye really is just a waste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
The Fitness pool isn't really necessary (Considering you can get 40 end from killing 1 foe with Stygian Circle), consider dropping it for Combat Jumping andSuperjump or Superspeed. You can slot an extra LoTG +7.5% and some BoTZ sets then.
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Actually, it's very, very useful for a human-former, and I wouldn't advise skipping over it, ESPECIALLY after looking at your build... With your toggles, you're consuming nearly as much endurance as what your recovery rate is
just standing there. Start working in a few attacks, and your endurance bar drops like a rock, unless you got some endurance recovery to counter that.
Try facing some +3s or +4s with that recovery/usage ratio, and come back and tell me if you can take down a minion (especially if you're fighing Arachnos, Malta, or Carnies) in enough time to use your Stygian Circle before your endurance runs out. Then come talk to me about the fitness pool being "not needed" with that sort of endurance usage in a build like that.
That's not even taking into consideration what it would be like to take down anything OTHER than a minion (especially after that minion you just killed has disappeared, making Stygian Circle useless) with that sort of recovery/usage ratio.
I'm suprised at what you guys (not just you, Darkstar)
don't take into consideration, considering how much I've been berated about "not using numbers" to prove a point.
Laughable. Just laughable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
You might consider picking up and running Inky Aspect as the third choice, it stuns minions, can get some good set bonus' and has very little cost.
My favourite slotting for Dark Extraction is 4 Expedient Reinforcement and only 2 from Soulbound Allegiance (Including the proc). You get more global recharge and similar numbers.
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I tend to agree with you here... Expedient Reinforcement is actually a
better set for +global recharge builds... Soulbount Allegiance is nice, but not really "necessary" for a Warshade's pets... I find that purple set benefits my fire/kin better than my Warshade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
No Gravatic Emination? This is one of the best control powers in the game. Added to Inky Aspect can stun bosses. (The tactic is open with Gravatic Emination to position the mobs, run in with Inky Aspect on, stunning all that wasn't stunned, hit Sunless Mire)
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Although I don't like the power personally (because of KB problems, and having to run back out of melee range for a good hit--therefore making me have to hit it
first before going into a mob, and possibly ruining my Eclipse hit.... Yeah... the cons outweigh the pros in this situation for me), it can be pretty powerful if used correctly.
It's one of those "use with caution" powers though... Especially if you're on a team that has problems with KB, due to lack of control.
This power choice is completely up to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Consider putting the +stealth IO into sprint, or one of the prestige sprints if you have it. It will be cheaper and easier to activate that way.
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Agreed. I just did this myself recently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Lastly the defence from Shadow Cloak is mostly supressed, so might not be worth enhancing (I am not sure about exact %'s).
I would get a Winters Gift Slow Resistance somewhere too.
Other than that it looks a good solid build 
Here is what I came up with after my changes:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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Also agreed... Considering the second you put out a single attack your Shadow Cloak defense gets supressed, putting that many slots into it is a bit of a waste here.
I'll also mention that Darkstar's build is *mostly* good, though I'll reiterate that not having perma-Eclipse will kill you, and having any global recharge over 180% (for perma Hasten) is a bit funny, considering that changes very little (Gravity Well recharges in 5.44 seconds with your 177.5% recharge build, whereas it recharges in 5.2 seconds with Darkstar's 195% recharge build... The change is so minute, it's really not worth it, unless what you're going for is "bragging rights for "build with highest recharge.")
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
If I were forced at gunpoint to do a human build this is probably very similar to what I would
build. Though i would probably just let them shoot me instead. I would swap the whole fighting/leadership pools to something more like the concealment pool though as well as pick up the nuke, and gravitic emmination for offencive ability to not be slaughtered.
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Wow, you get on to me for "presenting human-form as the best way to go," and yet I can't berate you for making it look as if "you're just going to get slaughtered!"
I call BS.
I can survive "without getting slaughtered" just fine without Gravitic Emination
Also, swapping out fighting/leadership pools for concealment?
Are you friggin' kidding me?
Wow.
I need to just shut my mouth now, before I get this thread needlessly closed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I already know your against the forms so I wont bother attempting to lure you but in the interest of others thinking this looks good i'll point out almost all your damage is going to be on a lower damage scaler as well as lacking the 45% damage boost your granted for squid form and have no ability to avoid mezz with dwarf form.
As I said, within the constraints you have placed on your build this is about as good as you will get other than the changes i mentioned.
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Actually, It DOES "look good," when considering the points I've already mentioned:
1. It gets the job done
2. There would be only a few seconds difference between the time it took to get a mob down with a human-former and a tri-former.
So, conversely, so people don't think you are presenting a human-form build as "looking bad," I'll go ahead and say,
"It looks good."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderslug
Two points.
1. You have neither Gravitic Emanation nor Inky Aspect, and not nearly enough defense to be blasé about mez in the late game. Without dwarf form to fall back on, mezzing first is your only protection against being mezzed yourself. Nothing--nothing--sucks more than jumping into a big spawn, hitting Eclipse and Sunless, and then doing the drunk walk for 40 seconds while all that lovely buff goes to waste.
Actually, that's not entirely true, because while you are watching the pretty stars your kooshes will try to tank for you. I say try, because they are about as resilient as a level 32 blaster with an unreasoning faith in the power of an unslotted Nova.
By which I mean not very.
2. For all I know this may have been fixed by now, but last I knew the T&S stealth proc had the unfortunate quirk of suppressing for ten seconds when you teleport. You can work around that, but you would be better off sticking the run version in Sprint. Or getting SS.
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What have you been fighting that causes you to walk around for 40 seconds stunned? Is Rikti Raids seriously all you do with your human-form Warshade?
Oh, wait... Let me guess... You don't have a human-form warshade, or you wound up deleting it a while back.
That said, I will say yes, it does suck if you're immediately hit with a mezz the second you go in. But, in actuality, unless you're consistently going up against the most difficult enemies/mob sizes in the friggin' game, you're not going to be experiencing that as often as you're presenting that it will happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Conclusion: Human only AoE is very lacking even compared to Black Dwarf, and although single target damage is respectable it is only comparable to Black Dwarf. Meaning you will never outdamage a tri-former in any situation.
I know the reason most people pick human only isn't straight damage however, but it is worth knowing this.
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Can you get me the numbers or how you calculated this? Because Black Dwarf (from what I've seen) can't even come CLOSE to comparing to my human-only AoE numbers. Either your numbers or wrong, or your opinion is biased or skewed.
Last I checked, Black Dwarf only has two possible (damaging) attacks that can affect several targets at once (not counting having a proc in the taunt, and even that only hits the enemy you're currently targeting), and that's including Dark Extractions being up.
Human has six.
And you say Human-only AoE is lacking compared to Dwarf?
What have you been smoking? Can I have some?
I REALLY would like to see someone in Dwarf take down a mob faster than my human-former can. Really. I would.
What? You say that's not what you meant?
Then don't present it like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Aftermath
I have finally decided to make a Kheldian and have decided to go with a Human-Form Warshade. I have put a build together and I'm surprised at how happy I am with how it looks. It does rely heavily on +Recharge so avoiding Mobs with -Recharge effects will be important while solo'ing but other than that one Achilles Heel, it looks like this could be quite the beast.
Operating under the assumption that I'll be able to stealth into any group and hit at least 4 mobs with Eclipse (which is perma in this build) and Sunless Mire, I'll be fighting at +80% RES to S,L,F,C,E,N and 67% Res to T,P to go along with a constant 78% Damage Buff.
Please take a peak at this (very expensive, but affordable) build and tell me if I'm crazy to be excited to hit 50 with this guy.
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You might want to
check this guide out before you spend all that influence...
"Alien"
