Ammon

[ QUOTE ]
So would be Mugabe esq dictator in Africa won't be able to attack his neighbouring country, his people don't want to risk not having enough soldiers to fight the Rikti, in turn he can't just force his will on his people, because his generals don't want to risk being in a cival war when the next atack arrives.

If you read Watchmen you can see how simply one man brought about World Peace at an even more untrusting stage of history.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a couple of really important points here, but the first one is very simple.

Dude. The Watchmen is fiction. There are no world wars in Postman Pat either but it doesn't have a lot of weight in a discussion of real human nature.

Second. You don't think that the actual existance of Gods is perhaps a bit bigger news to humanity than just that there is life in alternate dimensions?

Statesman is Zeus incarnate. Hellions actually summon power from hell. Hell exists! Demons exist. The Circle of Thorms are real wizards. None of these revelations actually changed the broadest events of History. The Second world war not only still took place, but despite flying super-heroes on each side, all the same events, right up to the invention, and use of the atomic bombs, happened to the same timescales as our owm.

I personally think that's a big clue as to the likelihood that the hand of fate will continue to see the two universes mirror each other. This is deliberate. ((Because this is a commercial game, and they want people to be able to pick it up and get immersed without having to read an encyclopedia)).

We can sit at the sidelines all we like and say, "You know, once you have the least inkling that Hell is genuine, that has to change how you live your life, right?". We can say "You know, once you know magic exists, wouldn't the entire world be training magicians in the way they train scientists or doctors?" ((And most especially should have altered the events leading to the Second World war)).

Yet events from the 1920s unfold to mirror the politics of our own world. 80 years of men that can survive a direct hit by a tactical nuke did not change the nuclear arms race happening. 80 years of men who could fly through the skies on their own super-abilities did not stop the development of warplanes, helicopters, etc as weapons of war.

I have to say that Gods, super-heroes, magic, demons, and alternate dimensions are just as big a deal as the genuine existance of aliens. But its like Global Warming - most people choose to pretty much ignore it feeling unable to do anything about things on that scale.


Thirdly and finally for now: the small dictatorship issue. I've already shown hard examples of where having a bigger enemy, right in your face, does not prevent you just using the gun you are given to fight with to shoot the guy you don't like next to you.

Way back in history, warring tribes in Africa suddenly found themselves both invaded by white-skinned 'alien' men from a far away homeland. Your logic says that they should have ceased all domestic dispute and united against this far greater common enemy who would from that day forward prove the greater threat and change their world forever.

What really happened in many cases was that they just sought technology from the white-men to be able to shoot the tribesmen next door rather than spear or knife him. They'd in fact use the invasion of the whites as even more excuse to prey on their neighbours, and sell them as slaves to the whites.

A one-off? Try looking up the history of the Native Americans. Did all inter-tribal wars cease with the arrival of the far greater foe, visibly alien? Nope. The tribes did not unite until far too late, and only then once they had already lost their homelands, lost their nations, and had nothing left to lose.

The small dictators and tyrants of the world are actually more free than ever under a Rikti threat. Because the rest of the world HAS to defend them to prevent the Rikti gaining their lands to build a portal in. The world has to consider giving them better arms, technology, etc, and we know theywon't all agree to that. The UN would actually have far more tensions, as communist nations want to supply the latest suuper-weapons to other communist countries, while the very vocal anti-communist nations would be vehemently opposed, but actually powerless to stop it without invading and sparking a war.

However, the Rikti attacked in a manner to win a war. They focused on taking down opposition first, thus the heaviest concentration of prolonged all-out warfare happened in Paragon City, against the heroes and magicians who offered the strongest resistance.

The Rikti don't stop wars and political tension. They actually increase it, by making rikti-resistance yet anther scarce resource that is seen to be hoarded in the USA and not given to others.

[ QUOTE ]
However there was also the Rikti War, whike superheroes might not be enough to stop decades of hate, an invasion from outer space (as far as the average man knows) would be.

Why hate the man in the next country when you've lost loved ones to a Rikti Dropship?
Hell if we've seen anything from Sci-Fi films its that mankind joins together when attacked by a threat from the stars.
The man from the enxt coutnry may be the wrong colour, tribe or religion but he is still a man and not a purple people eater from outer space.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know several sci-stories of the kind, and indeed the even older stories of foes uniting to fight the common enemy. But you do need to remember they are just stories, indeed based on some real events, but neglecting the equal number of stories of people who simply used the chaos of the new situation to get away with killing their enemies.

Here's the sad truth that I feel compelled to use in the portrayal of a villain who is a victim of his own darkness.

* Virtually every country in the world has had at least one civil war.

* Despite African-Americans fighting for their country in the first world war, not only were they still victims of racist murders back in their homeland even during the war, but they were additionally treated appallingly by many of the soldiers on the same side fighting next to them. This included beatings and murders.

* After two such world wars where thousands of African-Americans had fought and died for their country, (and indeed there are many claims that predominently black companies were often more readily used as cannon-fodder), and even under the threat of the worst of the cold-war, portrayed and perceived as a very real threat to Americans of the time, especially during the cuban missile crisis, the KKK were murdering black americans. Common enemy be damned.

* Likewise, even without racism, right in the middle of a war, many soldiers are murdered by soldiers not just on the same side, but in the same company. Often over the most petty issues, such as cheating at cards, or laughing when one guy got a 'dear john' letter. Court martials are not just dealing with deserters by any stretch of the imagination.

* And how about the betrayal of a 'Dear John' letter itself, when the guy is off fighting for his homeland, putting his life on the line, and she can't even wait to tell him face to face.

No, I'm afraid that whatever nice fell-good fiction likes to tell us, fuelled by our own need to convince ourselves we're not a bad bunch, people are inherently petty.

To a mutant-hater, the aliens are only almost as bad as the mutants, because at least they ain't stealing his job, or his wife, or living next door and untouchable under the law.

The human capacity for short-sightedness and pettiness is the natural counter to their capacity for selflessness and vision. But probably a lot more common, and simply less reported.

[ QUOTE ]
Ever read Watchmen?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice story.

Ever seen "A Few Good Men"?
Ever seen "Mississipi Burning"?
Ever read the history of The League of Nations?
Ever read the history of the Suez Crisis?

Even entire nations can be petty, so you can always find petty individuals within one, no matter what outside events apply. Sad but true. No wonder the fictional version is so much more commercial.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what went wrong here

[/ QUOTE ]
The usual - one of the older RPers not even involved in the thread decided to troll and spout nonsense. It happens a lot here - in fact everytime theres a decent plot they didn't start. Which means everytime there's a decent plot.

Now that he's down to suggesting they are not plotting to destroy Paragon, or any of the other things we've all read them plotting first hand, well, I won't bother to respond further. Sad though.


[ QUOTE ]
The best thing I can mention about LORD is the fact that they're real, credible super villains. These Super Villains have a REAL grand scheme, to rule the world
...
However, to rule the world, naturally you would have to seize nations.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly so. And as several of us have pointed out, this is a paralel world of sorts, where back in 1919 a young American soldier set off on a trek that resulted in magic and wonder being allowed back into the world. He opened Pandora's Box and epic forces came out to change the world forever.

To that extent, no country in the game is a real country, in the real world because - duh - we aren't really supervillains. We're roleplayers supposedly playing the role of super-villains.

Now sadly, the game devs didn't give us a fully developped game-world cannon and reference. But the cannon they have given us, even in the simple timeline, shows that despite superpowers being around from the 1920s, the hand of fate still made the game world quite closely parallel our own.

Britain still has a monarchy. America still has a president. The Second world war still happened, and still was fought to pretty much the same timelines and devastations, right down to the world's first two nukes being dropped on Japan.

If super-heroes didn't change that event, the instant anihilation of hundreds of thousands, and the ongoing cancer that continues to this day, then I think there's a strong hint in there that most of the world is largely as we know it.

The cold war still happened, and it was actually far, far worse in this super-powered world, with statesman being nuked (killing the people he was attempting to save) and in turn starting an inevitable chain of events that lead to the Soviets actually launching a preemptive full nuclear strike against the US. This diversion from our world was then undone and set right by the super-heroes, bringing the cold-war to an end, and making super-heroes something of a thorn in the side of all political systems.

The UN still formed, and has a special bureau for superhuman affairs, because such super-powered individuals do have a profound effect on international politics and diplomacy, whether intended or not.

Now, the game cannon freely uses real countries and pretty significant personages, such as the ever-so-nearly-successful assassination of the British Monarch, or the capture of the US President. The battle with Nemesis is right in the heart of Washington DC, and the first Rikti War happened all over the world, to every major city, and the shattered resistance from all over the world gathered in Paragon for the counter-strike. Think how much destruction must have been in London, Paris, Tokyo, New York, Berlin, Malmo, Madrid, etc, etc when all the defenders of the world apparently decided that Paragon was the last stand place.

Game cannon says that bad things happen to the mirror versions of places we know. Game cannon says that using what we know of the real world helps us to more easily identify with the mirror, which despite all its differences, always tends to bear a lot of resemblance to our own.

[ QUOTE ]
And then there is the 'bleed'. People who are capable of really going in character often feel the 'bleed'. I feel that this may be the only reasonable argument I've heard so far. It's a game. If doing something specific in the game can make you feel uncomfortable, then don't. It's not worth it. So if that's your argument then I'll accept it completely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have to agree there. I am happy to play the incredibly dark aspects of Borealis because I believe there's a positive lesson in there. Most of us go through our lives being a lot less than pure and heroic. We're human, and we lie, we cheat, and worst of all, we deceive ourselves and pretend that some of the things we all do which we know are bad, aren't so bad, or are justified, or whatever.

This actually echoes a chat I had with Pious when he first approached me about the LoRDs idea. As I said to him then, there is good reason why the arch evil of all evils, Satan, is "the father of lies". Deception, most especially self-deception is the root of all evil.

I don't play Borealis as evil. I play him as tragic. He's a victim of his own weaknesses. His biggest sins are the ones that I think we'd all do well to think about. Ego, jealousy, and pettiness.

He isn't going to kill you to feast on your soul. He's going to kill you out of jealousy or pettiness. He's going to kill you because he can't abide you having what he can't. He'll kill you because he can't abide the fact you don't like him, and for him it is easier to kill you than to change his ways and be more likeable. We all recognize these dark emotions because we all see them around us all the time, and even within us, though we have hopefully learned not to act on such.

I don't feel bad about playing him because he actually helps me be more honest with myself, and avoid acting like him - most of the time. I can even feel good about playing him, because he's a lesson. He says that evil isn't the demon or the monster we can never become. Its the monster we already are, somewhere deep down, and barely control.

The scariest thing about villains, and the most important lesson, isn't how monstrous or diabolical they are. It is how human they are, and how alike us. We make monsters of them to lie to ourselves that we could never go that way. And in doing so, we never learn the real lesson that would actually prevent more such monsters coming.

The one thing they always say about some of the most dispicable villains throughout history is how normal they seemed. Often described as 'he seemed such a normal guy' or 'he seemed so nice' or 'he was just a short guy with glasses'.

Want to see a real villain? Think of the last thing that made you think, even for a moment, "I'd like to kill him" or "I wish you'd die" and go look in the mirror. That's the lie that Satan is the father of. The lie that we could never be villains.

Okay, someone burn that soapbox I just stood on.

Oh FFS, stop splitting hairs.

The point my points are responding to is in black and white:
[ QUOTE ]
I will NOT be a part of any group-plot that plans to invade or destabalize a REAL country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plans to.

Go and get that dictionary.

Duh! The entire point of the plotting is exactly to use action against one nation or another to start a chain that leads to global domination. That means every country in the world, if you don't happen to have a dictionary nearby.

Entire post OOC:

[ QUOTE ]
Hi guys been following this for a while, just thought id add something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think perhaps when you were following this you might have missed an important bit, where Pious opened up the OOC rules for this particular event and said:

[ QUOTE ]
((Roleplaying in this meeting is by Moderator invitation only.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that being so, I won't mention the fact that the meeting ended 5 hours before you suggested you arrive, or the godmodding of determining what effect your powers have on others without discussing their defences, immunities, and gaining consent.

Its a nice piece of writing, kudos, but its not good RP.

Um... Gotham, Metropolis, Smallville, etc are all in a real country. Not near to, or next to, the USA, but in it, part of it, and thus attacks to those fictional places are still attacks to a real country.

Taking entire fictional countries such as the ones mentioned so far, overthrowing, destroying, or otherwise monkeying with those fictional countries is still going to have an effect on the real-world neighbouring countries.

Thus this will all still collide head-on with Hatesman's stated position that he will not take part in any plot or event that fictionally destabilises a real world country.

I still can't see that position as tenable given game cannon.

[ QUOTE ]
With the world as it stands today, I will NOT be a part of any group-plot that plans to invade or destabalize a REAL country.

[/ QUOTE ]
Such as the United States of America wherin lies Paragon City, in the specific, real-life state of Rhode Island?

Sorry, can't see how that's going to work.

If you intend to destroy, or simply disrupt, Paragon City, you have to accept game cannon that Paragon is now the foremost city in the USA, and far more important than NY City or Washington. Anything that you do to Paragon you are doing to the foremost city in the world, and the USA. (Humble folks those US game writers).

[ QUOTE ]
Source: Official Timeline: Rise of the Super-villains

Although these new super villains made their presence felt across the country, Paragon City became the centre of their activities. As the richest, largest city in the nation and home to so many super powered veterans, Paragon proved the perfect breeding ground for evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite my character being the one to mention a list of counties, that is done entirely for effect - the effect on the reader. I needed to use real-world countries and political issues so that the reader would instantly understand the real point of the style of path to global domination he's considering.

I'm all for creating fictional actual locations for the target, but even those will be set in genuine locations of the planet (but the game universe planet, which we know is not our own dimension), or otherwise clearly identifiable to grasp the reader.

Austavia is one such potential country, being very diverse in demographic, and having a long history of political instability as it has been incorporated and lost from one empire after another, from the Prussian Empire to the Soviet Union.

Karnalia is a fictional archipelligo used in another game-world I ran years ago, and is a far-eastern nation of small volcanic islands. It currently calls itself a democracy, but, oddly enough, voting always apprently elects the hereditary leader of the same family. Its closeness to China has lead to recent trade increase, but otherwise the main industry is subsistance fishing (there have been many rows over fishing rights with Japan) and tourism (two of the islands are quite the tropical paradise.

But both of these are fictional places that deliberately draw attention to real-world political issues. I believe that all good fiction contains parables and such, and that such is vital.

I do think we need an OOC area, but I'm afraid putting it here, in the official forum, might be a little like the Wizard of Oz explaining "Ignore that man behind the curtain!"

I do see some great benefit to having an OOC discussion where the mechanics can be seen by those who want to see how it goes together 'behind the scenes', but, it will give away a few of the twists and turns, plots and machinations that will lessen the joy of discovering them more dramatically as the IC plot unfolds.

There are certain gimics, gizmos and strategies that Lord Borealis is working on, or already has, that I really don't want to give away too soon. Sooner or later our plots are going to cause confrontation with heroes, and I don't want them to be seeing a weakness that Borealis is going to exploit and thinking "Oh yeah, but my character would have thought of that, and will have this defence".

Most RPers are pretty good about keeping OOC from IC adjustments, but even so, RPers also 'borrow' ideas and take inspiration from OOC ideas. And if this is to become a community-wide plot or two, then certain things should probably be kept entirely secret just to make it safer for any newer RPers to join in without risking confusing IC with OOC knowledge.

"Quite right, Countess, quite right" Lord Borealis nodded. "We are getting ahead of ourselves, caught up in the possibilities. The agenda for this meeting was to consider an alliance. As Dark Pistol so aptly put it: a League of Righteous Destroyers. We have managed to rise above the pitiful jealousies of our lessers and see the wisdom of a true alliance. Let us vote acceptance of the League, and that we shall meet again on the 20th to discuss what we would achieve. That way we can each bring a proposal or plan for consideration at that next meeting."

He raised a glass, looking to all those gathered before settling his gaze upon Alicia Barzini. "I, Lord Borealis, hereby accept the proposed alliance, and give my sworn alliegance to our League!"

He drained his glass. The commitment given.

While part of Borealis' brilliant mind listened to the words of Pistol and the Countess, a deeper part was engaged in reflection on the contries of the world, their political status, natural resources, and strategic usefulness.

He rather favoured the middle east. The resources were excellent, and the political situation was such that every nation of the world would want to step in to have an excuse to annex a part of the region, weakening the political stability of the entire UN almost instantly and unavoidably.

Of course, it would be a sacrifice move, taking the land only to have every superpower immediately dispatch all its resources to reclaim it, but that was precisely the appeal. It would drain all the first world countries of significant funds and resources, create a quagmire of domestic unease and demonstrations, and create ever increased tension between nations. A most useful and effective strategem for undermining the governments of the world, and keeping them distracted.

For land to take and hold... well, ideally Thaiand or the Philipines. The countries were both rich in human resources, and life was cheap. The super-powers did little enough to prevent the outrageous human trafficking that went on in those lands, and would not be overly keen to extend themselves in opposing a takeover - especially if they thought they could deal more easily with the new owners.

Eastern Europe was also promising, and he was sure that both Romanov and Balthory might easily support a move to dominate one of the ex-soviet nations. Most resources other than human were not so ideal, but the accsss to some of the organized crime syndicates of Eastern Europe would easily compensate.

When the Countess finished speaking, he put forward his thoughts.

"Countess, while the weapons stored in Warburg might indeed save us a few weeks of development, gathering them at this stage might be a little too public, without using ignorant external agencies for the aquisition."

"Besides which, opening our play with a nuclear strike or devastating traditional biological weapon, especially on territory so close to the US mainland would obviously say to those in all lands that they might be next. It lacks ... subtlety."

"Our first target should be as remote from the US and NATO countries as possible. It should currently have a regime that is unpopular and seen as evil. That way when we take it, other nations will not be able to even consider simply undoing our changes and putting things back. The more we make them think, and the higher we push the cost of interferring, the less chance any will bother. Particularly if they see little gain thereby."

"The ideal targets would be any of the revolution-torn lands of Africa, and the ideal cover would be to create what appeared to be a new humanitarian league of heroes to go in and take control for the good of the people" He allowed himself a small smile.

"Personally, I'd rather take more useful land, and I rather favour Thailand, or perhaps North Korea. Good sized lands with plenty of natural resources, where human life is a little cheap, and where some rather unsavoury treatment of its own people helps muddy the morality."

"North Korea is certainly rather ambitious as an opening move, and that suggests that Cambodia, Laos, or even Burma might be far more cost-effective initial aquisitions. Burma in particular opens access to China and India for us"

"One of the former soviet countries would be a viable alternative, but I think simply buying and exerting control of those lands through the Russian mafia makes more sense and causes less resistance in the long term. There are useable organizations there that are better preserved for later exploitation I think".

"However, I had a notion for a second phase, requiring a little sacrifice of resources, but with a great potential to completely undermine the entire UN."

Borealis explained his notions for the middle east, and suggested that either Palestine or Iran might be superb options. In either case, they would not need to march in an army, but simply to forment and exacerbate the existing factional unrest in the region to create chaos and tempt the greed of other nations.

I see the LoRDs as being potentially a huge and rich source of perhaps several community-wide plots. In other words, even whie a closed and unknown group, they are an obvious plot device.

Better yet, they might offer, potentially, the opportunity for a batmanesque super-detective to brilliantly detect the unseen hands behind several apparently unconnected plots and incidents.

[ QUOTE ]
But a thing like LoRD is best left amongst a close group. Otherwise it will be utter chaos on the forum. And the LoRD:s aren't chaotic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hatesman and XV can both be a little chaotic at times, I suspect. However, more interesting to the generation of some serious community-wide plots is that while the LoRDs might not be chaotic, they certainly intend to bring chaos to Paragon.

Just as a 'for instance', the LoRDs might see opportunities to weaken and undermine the heroes and the governance of Paragon in many ways. From something as simple as supplying new and more powerful resources and weapons to existing villain groups, upto unleashing viral strains to create panic and misery, or planting bombs to destroy landmarks, and undermine all public faith in the heroes and authorities.

However, if you are looking for the opportunity to face off against the LoRDs then prepare for a long wait and a longer journey. They are far from idiots, and while a few may have an insanity that makes certain things predictable, they are each quite capable of working on a grand scale, undetected and unseen. The power behind layers of unknowing minions doing their will.

If the LoRDs do not remain an ongoing plot for years, then frankly they'll have been misplayed. We should instead be able to grab several community-wide plots of the scale of Britanic's wonderful "Riot in the Row" that only collectively, and with great opportunity to finally showcase the brilliance of some super-genius AIs and super-detectives even revealing the hidden hands of malice steering the events from the shadows.

I think the first level of opening this up will be in the LoRDs deciding which other groups to involve, use and exploit. You won't be finding the likes of Romanov or Liz personally roaming around looking to fight a hero one on one unless something forces their hand and strips them of all their political tools, armies of minions, etc. That's what they have such things for.

However, do bear in mind that I am not the GM for this group, merely one of the lucky players getting to finally explore the hitherto unseen side of one of my darkest and most fascinating to explore characters. So my views and goals and hopes are merely that.

"It seems to me that we can all agree to sack the city of Paragon. We defeat its protectors, destroy its governance, and lay claim to whatever spoils of that city we wish." Lord Borealis mused soothingly. "Whether we then utterly destroy the city, or let it stand as an accursed memorial of forlorn hopes of opposing us, can be decided thereafter, can it not?"

"For now, I am minded to hear what Romanov hopes to attain from our alliance." Borealis turned his cold blue eyes to Romanov and waited.

[ QUOTE ]
And, I might add, the League of Righteous Destroyers is probably that most brilliantly written thread I've seen so far. Mind-numbingly intense, intimate and intelligent; Kudos!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for my humble part in the League of Righteous Destroyers thread, thanks a million for the kudos. Its appreciated. And you are absolutely right about how intimate and intense it feels. We're all getting these deliciously rich insights into some really well thought out villains, and its a joy to be a part of it.

It is also a real relief, because as this thread has noted, you simply don't get to portray this sort of stuff in Pocket D, or in casual meetings. Characters like these would not reveal their inner motives to anyone without good reason.

Borealis has always avoided Pocket D. Why would he go there, and assuming there were good reason, he'd just do that. He has absolutely no interest in socializing, because he loathes and despises people most of the time. It is only in a thread and situation like the LORDs one that he can finally be portrayed in his full glory, along with the unspoken thought processes that are such an important part of what he is.

Borealis nodded assent to the Countess regarding his name.

"Countess, if you mean that none of your kind should ever be harmed, I would be reluctant to agree to such ... racism. However, if you mean that no genocide of your kind be undertaken, then I am in perfect accord. I would treat vampires, and any other races, no differently to my own, judging each individual on its own merit, and killing only as needed to achieve my needs. Does that suffice?"

In the thoughtful pause that followed Hatesman's latest response, Borealis considered just how much of his plans and motivations these allies would need to know. Or in certain cases, could understand.

"Well, I have never had any desire to waste precious time on running the affairs of the insignificant." He spoke with a manner that was as cold as his frozen heart. "Even to rule from behind a throne tends to sap one's time answering the peurile questions of its occupants."

"However, the autonomy I require for my projects and works, and the freedom to further the course of science, has lead me to the inescapable conclusion that I must take a hand in politics. I must either support a new order that will give me the free reign and resources I require, without hesitation, or else create such an order myself."

"I have tried, to this point, simply declaring autonomy, and refusing to be beholden or answerable to any nation or authority beyond my own. But of course, they fear me and my work just too much, and too little, to leave me undisturbed in my works. Thus I am saddly forced to waste precious time in attaining power to dissuade others from interference." Borealis shook his head a little to himself at the unpleasant necessity to waste time on such frivolous and unrewarding matters as the bulk of humanity.

"So. I approach this alliance with a view that I might, at least, find assistance in culling the population of the world to a more manageable level, reducing the attention it will take from my true calling. I have absolutely no interest in ever having dominion over any of you. And my only possible cause of fricton with anyone at this table, would be if they sought dominion over me. Aside from assuring my autonomy is preserved, I have no opposition to, nor frankly much interest in, the affairs of any here."

As the words "if they were allowed to proceed" issued from Romanov's mouth, Borealis suspected for an instant that the jumped up mystic was about to oppose them, and his hand twitched imperceptably, ready to freeze the mystic mid-speech, before his mind read the tone correctly.

This need for posturing and showing off will undo us all, he thought with disadain. It was typical of the ones with arcane powers to be those most needing to boast and posture. It must be some prerequisite of controlling demons or some such, for it seemed all mystics were equally arrogant in his experience.

He marked Romanov and Balthory in his mind as the ones most weak in terms of personality, the ones most predictably needy of toadies, at the same time noting that the forces they could command beyond themselves made them potentially the most powerfully dangerous in his estimation.

It was precisely these factors that had lead Borealis to conclude that the arrogant and insincere Romanov would have to die first in his initial instinctive reaction to the proposal - to use and betray - before considering the futility of a false alliance to them all.

Part of Borealis' mind listened to the rest of Romanov's speech, but it merited no real attention. It was merely a long-winded and self-serving way of saying yes while probably trying to convince himself he was superior to all others here. The sound washed over him as he considered the coming weeks.

As Romanov finally sat back down, probably still unaware of how his need to posture had so nearly started an annihilation at this table, Borealis turned his gaze to Lord Erebus. The only one left to agree, and perhaps therefore the most grudging.

Hard to be sure, for it was Romanov that had put off agreement until seeing just how many would likely act against him if he attempted to leave with knowledge of this League without commitment to it. It made his convictions questionable at best. A man who dithers and agrees only after seeing himself utterly outnumbered is not a man who's agreement is to be trusted at face value.

Borealis found himself feeling most impressed by the Dark Pistol and by Hatesman so far. Alicia was a woman who was not unfamilar with alliances and honour. Oswald had impressed him with his preparation to be able to control his madness. Besides the immediate trust issue, these were two he felt no opposition to at all.

Calculating swiftly that with Pistol, who's proposal their aliance had begun with, they were now four in favour with only three left to speak their minds, Borealis began working on the logistical issues of the alliance.

Not that he relaxed yet. Romanov, Erebus, and the Countess were forces to be reckoned with, and arcane power, which he strongly suspected was the speciality of each, did not always fit with logic. Perhaps they might yet precipitate bloodshed this night. Still, logic said that whoever survived the next few minutes would be part of a hitherto unthinkable alliance. A league indeed... in a league of their own.

He might even feel humbled by such a moment, were he that sort of a man.

(( This is Game after all - If you have a female genie/djinn in scanty diaphenous veils, you're in. ))

[ QUOTE ]
someone remind me if I look like I'm forgetting again...

[/ QUOTE ]
Hates, its Tuesday 15th.. you know... 4th wall?

Borealis felt his spirits sink at Pistol's first proposal? Common goals? No. Similar goals, yes. But it was not Borealis' goal to see Hatesman rule the world. Nor Romanov. Nor even the Countess. Oh, they could all happily align to destroy things, but before that was finished they would be bound to turn on each other.

And he had no reason to believe anyone sat at this table didn't realise the exact same thing. Was not already looking around and deciding which of their comrades they felt would need to die first. Perhaps even thinking ahead to how they'd get the others to assist or even kill for them.

Pointless. It would be more efficient to simply declare war on each other now while they had yet to learn each other's weaknesses, or to push each other into situations that might reveal them.

And yet...

Pistol was quite right that the Heroes advantage was precisely that they could cooperate. That their goals were not mutually exclusive. That heroes did not eventually have to turn on each other to leave only one.

Looking around the table, every mind here was brilliant. Perhaps not as brilliant and inventive as his own, of course. Even that crazy brute Hatesman had a deeply brilliant mind somewhere beneath the madness. Surely they might all have the same realization?

It was worth, just one more total break from tradition.

"Normally, Pistol, this is where we all look around, think to ourselves how we can use and later betray each other, and seal our own failure right at this opening moment." Borealis spoke, his voice soft yet with a compelling edge of a man who'd put thought into his words and would not lightly waste his own time speaking were it not worthwhile to listen.

He looked around the group, seeing which eyes were on him.

Borealis nodded, "Yes, I have the same thoughts. We all do. It is why we are the kind of people to be sat at this table. It is why we would be wasting our time to accept, because right at this moment even, before we have begun, we are already putting more thought to controlling and destroying each other, eventually, than to our real objectives."

He paused again, certain that they all knew this as surely as he did.

"And yet, we are each proud of our ability to plan masterful strategies to dominate the world. Have we therefore the intelligence and wisdom to find a way through? To finally honestly attain what none have attained before?"

He shook his head, "I honestly don't know."

"I don't think we need to determine whether we should work together. I think instead that if any of us are so certain of success alone, that they should walk out now with their haughty pride and prepare to face the others later"

"I think we instead look at finding a way to ensure that we can trust each other, even if by assured mutual destruction, and thus asserting the logic that it is better to share rulership of a whole world with a few who helped earn it, than to have ones pride and no rulership beyond what we have now"

"We all had our suspicions that a gathering such as this was for such a purpose. And we all came. But if we are merely going to condemn ourselves to the same old failures of a million brilliant - lesser of course, but still brilliant - criminal minds before us, we may as well walk out now."

He paused once more, for the next words would be a commitment never before given.

"I am prepared to break the mould. I am willing to sit here and admit that in all probablity, if I were able to dominate the world alone I would have already done so. Instead, I am willing to purchase my dominion of the world at the price of giving away an equal share of that world to each person here. And upon my honour, a word several of us here understand, I will deal honestly with those who feel the same"

"Eventually, of course we may turn on each other, still afflicted by the greatness in us that needs to dominate. But let us do so once we each have dominion of an entire portion of the world unchecked. If we must have our battle royale, then let us do that when we are rulers of nations."

Until then, a pact that we shall make no move against each other until no other threat remains. And a pact that we all turn as one on whichever of us has not the bravery and conviction to wait, destroying them utterly for their weakness"

Borealis sat back and sipped his wine.

The entire world hung on this small moment like some cosmic pivot. At this moment, the fate of the world might be decided, either with bloodshed at his daring to accuse them all of his own sins, or betrayal by those without the wit to defeat the trap of all their kind through history, or with the unthinkable - a genuine pact that would shake the very world and seal the destiny of all life upon it.

Yes, fully appreciate that its likely that with so many RPSGs (and VGs too, since that still may take several Roleplayers out of other play) any night will sacrifice some.

Personally, I know that Romanov and I are pretty much only looking at either Tuesdays or Fridays as days free of other ongoing RP commitments (so far) and even one of those will soon be committed to a pretty substantial RP project.

I'd certainly love to involve Suzi Mitchell (nee White) a lot more with RP at the 4th Wall, and she'd have certainly attended the reopening were it not for needing to be with The Watchmen. I'm not complaining about Wednesdays at all, merely trying to say we're not ignoring you by not attending on Wednesdays.


On the general matter, it strikes me that the IC world is mirroring the real world. Clubs these days often struggle to compete for attention, and most clubs offer themed nights (open mike, DJs, booked bands, etc) in order to fill themselves at least one night a week and thus be profitable. Perhaps you need to roll with that, and use this as a spur to RP creative promotion efforts by the club as it struggles to draw people away from other clubs and commitments.

There are not a few musician heroes and celebrity heroes who might be called upon as performers for instance, and who then might bring their own fans and friends. Off the top of my head I can name the Amber Banshee (but not Mondays), The Last Word (but not Wednesdays), and Nene And The Nines (not sure of other regular commitments for Zortel).

Just an idea that I hope you can use somehow. The 4th Wall is a great idea and when I can attend I will.

Also, perhaps opening two different nights allows the most people who want access to have access at least once?

IIRC, Monday nights are the new Militia mission nights (Militia Mondays) and additionally I think Mondays are the official weekly base RP meeting for The Silent Tempest. That's already two not insubstantial groups of RPers who wouldn't be able to attend until after other commitments in-game were finished.

Wednesdays are still the main GG night aren't they? Certainly Wednesdays are the Hyperion Watchmen's one and only official night each week, and while the Watchmen are not the largest RP SG by anyone's imagination, that's still a fair few people with IC access to the 4th Wall that would be anable to attend on that night. THat's what kept myself and several others out of the grand reopening last night at least.

Lord Borealis watched the arrival of Elizabeth Balthory with a careful facade of mere polite interest. In actuality, he studied her entrance carefully. How people chose to present themselves spoke a lot about them, and Lord Borealis was prepared to read every sign.

This Balthory's entrance for instance - pure showmanship. She was broadcasting who and what she was immediately, as though craving the respect and attention it could merit. Her entrance said too much of who and what she was, and when knowledge is power, that could be a great weakness. Some would say it showed confidence to so easily proclaim one's powers. In Lord Borealis' extensive experience, it was the quiet ones, the ones who gave away little or nothing, who neither craved nor needed attention that were the most confident. But a lack of confidence was not the same as a lack of power. Balthory would be interesting to study.

Borealis himself was dressed as always in the cumbersome armour that he depended upon. The only alternative after all was a wooden overcoat, and he'd gone through so much already to avoid that particular outfit.

He'd prepared for the evening by standing in the buffing engine for a little longer than usual, and as a result, the antique brass appearance of the cumbersome suit gleamed. He went bareheaded tonight, but his spikey white hair was too frozen to move at all as he flew to the mansion.

Not that the suit encumbered his movements. The engineering of the suit was the work of a twisted genius, and it was powered just enough that the suit effectively allowed him to move with the strength and speed of a trained athlete.

Neither the steam engines nor the clockwork motors made any sound, despite the power. Sound was a byproduct indicating wasted energy. His suit was far too efficiently constructed to lose energy through heat or sound or vibration detectable without instruments.

Lord Borealis had also put thought into arriving precisely fourteen minutes early. Most people of power would choose to arrive late, flaunting their power to make others wait upon them. It was predictable. It showed need to be recognized. It was almost childish. So Lord Borealis had rejected such tradition, and arrived early.

Alicia had selected or trained her house-servants well. The calm and professional manner of the doorman had not been fazed at all by the arrival of a blue skinned man with spikey white hair and near permafrosted twirling moustache. Not given a second glance to the gleaming brass bulk of powered armour, nor been surprised at the silent tread of inch-thick rubber soles to his brass boots. He'd reacted as though guests looking like some Smurf version of Nemesis arrived all the time.

As he'd greeted Alicia and taken his seat, he noted the reinforced chair with relief. He wondered whether it had been constructed for tonight, or whether unusually heavy guests were common here. He smiled inwardly as his mind answered itself: It depends if they are wearing concrete overshoes already, perhaps?

"Good evening, Countess. I am Lord Borealis" he stated simply, his never-still mind already wondering who'd be next to arrive, and in what manner.

[ QUOTE ]
- What's so terrible about Stone?
- How about Willpower? Too soon to call?
- I like being 'slow', but I guess there's no place for that in PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]
Granite armour massively debuffs your movement, and attack capability. No matter how tough you are, the only way to win in PvP is to defeat the opponent before he defeats you. It is no good hoping for a stalemate as that's never a victory. And many toons, given freedom to pump damage into you without fear of you even getting close, will just annihilate you.

- Yes, still early on Willpower. It desperately lacks a self-heal, so Medicine pool would probably be essential. It will suffer slightly from being the classic 'Jack of all trades, master of none', and most critically of all, I don't see it having any of the debuff resisrances of other armours. Ice and SR both resist def debuffs heavily. Ice and Elec armours resist slows. The shields on WP don't seem to provide any debuff resistance. However, neither does Regen, and that's okay for PvP. Have to wait and see. The Fear resistance is a nice benefit though which most other armours lack.

-Slow targets in PVP are easy targets. Slow enemies can't catch you to hit you, allowing you to just attack and attack until it crumbles, without ever being at risk. Other than the risk of needing to pop a blue insp to hit you some more that is.



Note, this is about Stone Armour. Stone melee isn't so bad apart from the slow recharges, and a Stone/Elec Brute, with the nice recharge bonus from Lightning Reflexes, could be quite fun in PvP, though it is always going to lack the damage-per-second of fire, energy, or super-strength primaries. Seismic Smash compares to Total Focus though (Mag 4 hold on decent damage), so it wouldn't be gimped.