Another_Fan
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Quote:Originally Posted by William_Valence
Oh? An what did I miss? (Correct answer: Nothing)
As an aside...I like hugs
That the statement I made wasn't comparing blasters to corruptors.
But nice job, you are pretty good at repeating the analysis others have done, even if you don't understand it, or how it relates to the conversation. -
Quote:Math may be hard for you but reading seems downright impossible.Originally Posted by William_Valence
First: .6x2 is not 60% amplification. Next that amplification is only useful if the time it takes to provide it, is less than the loss in DPS you would get from simply doing damage. Also consider that blaster's are amplified as damage dealers, so a blaster on the team might be a better choice than other options. -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan 
Cold domination, will do 60% of its total damage from its secondary by debuffing enemies, that is not including the additional damage from the rest of the team. So when an at is deriving most of its damage from debuffing the enemies you call it a primary damage dealer.
Good to know where the goalposts are set in this discussionQuote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You missed the example and list of scondaries that do more damage by amplification of the primary than the primary does directly. Look upQuote:Originally Posted by William_Valence
If you're talking about the top quote, that's not math. That's a claim, you need to do math to prove that claim. Then you have to compare that math to a real-world ingame senario, then examine the results. You're missing some steps.
Quote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You are talking about 60% damage amplification/player from 2 powers in the secondary, that is before -regen is taken into account, or the added damage output from the rest of the team. If you can't work out that .6x2 > 1 without me explaining it to you, and you can't realize that is just the start of what is there, all the breakdown and explanation in the world isn't going to help.
You might as well just ignore every power that adds, hitpoints, to an at, the fact that they can be buffed to higher levels, or just can plain be built to have more hitpointsQuote:Aett shows, a solo blaster does more damage than a solo corruptor What would you like as a response ? You took a comment about corruptors doing most of their damage by buff debuff and decided to impeach it by showing a solo blaster does more damage than a solo corruptor. Whats more you did this in a discussion of the value of blasters on teams.Quote:Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Still waiting for a response to my math. I wonder if we'll get it.
I suppose, I could say WAY TO GO !!, YOU TOOK THE JOHNNY COCHRANE DEFENSE TO A NEW LEVEL ?
If you actually thought I was saying corruptors do more damage solo please look at the highlighted portions of the quote, and consider the material linked to below.
http://www.learnatest.com/shop/KitDe...qNum=2&MBC=MIL
Here's a course in reading comprehension, It helped my nephew. Evelyn Wood also used to be very well regarded I don't know if they are still in business. -
Quote:I'd be willing to bet that everyone does pretty much the same thing, once they have the group that can get the tf done. That really doesn't say much because once you have the group that can get the TF done every addition is superfluous. It also cuts both ways, it used to be that you would get those kind of invites from a team leader, and when you got to the team you'd find the all poorly built melee team for reichsman, the all resistance/heal stf.Originally Posted by BrandX
When I get asked "What AT do you need" when people send me a tell to join a TF I'm forming, my answer is always the same..."Whatever AT you'll have more fun bringing.
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Quote:You are talking about 60% damage amplification/player from 2 powers in the secondary, that is before -regen is taken into account, or the added damage output from the rest of the team. If you can't work out that .6x2 > 1 without me explaining it to you, and you can't realize that is just the start of what is there, all the breakdown and explanation in the world isn't going to help.Originally Posted by William_Valence
If you're talking about the top quote, that's not math. That's a claim, you need to do math to prove that claim. Then you have to compare that math to a real-world ingame senario, then examine the results. You're missing some steps.
You might as well just ignore every power that adds, hitpoints, to an at, the fact that they can be buffed to higher levels, or just can plain be built to have more hitpoints -
Quote:Amazing how many people weren't paying attention at all.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
People keep harping on this, but the truth is most like that far from being canned for "telling the truth" he got into hot water for telling a half-truth that caused unnecessary controversy, which is the exact opposite of what a community manager is supposed to do.
From the very beginning the devs were extremely open and transparent in saying that the purpose to the PvP changes were not specifically to make improvements designed to make people who were already PvPing like it more, but to attract more people to PvP. The fact that they did not specifically succeed at that goal does not detract from the fact that the stated purpose to the changes was, if you wanted to put it tactlessly, "not for the PvPers." It was not to cater to their specific requests that would tune PvP to their whims. It was to attract new players, and to the extent that the PvP community was solicited for feedback, it was within the context of asking them what, in their opinion, would make PvP more attractive to newer players that didn't PvP.
You can argue that the changes they made did not work, and even that they were doomed to fail: I argued against many of them from the very beginning and long past that point; some I thought were literally broken at birth. But as to this belief that Lighthouse leaked some big gotcha, people need to get over it. It was only a big secret if people were just not paying any attention at all. -
Quote:You missed the example and list of scondaries that do more damage by amplification of the primary than the primary does directly. Look upOriginally Posted by William_Valence
There hasn't been any math done to contradict anything that's been said against your opinion.
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Quote:Whats funny to me is you probably believe that I am making the unreasonable comparisons.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes, they're set by someone who will compare apples to elephants to make his argument appear valid.
When you can be objective or maybe just honest, I'll rejoin this discussion.
When all you have to do to make your argument is ignore, what the various ATs can do, what is readily available to them, and turn a blind eye to even the simplest math that contradicts you.
edit:Let me ask, because I have seen this elsewhere here and it repeatedly crops up. Is this a religious issue for you ? Is the idea just not able to process for you ? And to be clear, it crops up on the forums.
I know in the the cottage rule thread, you couldn't deal with the idea that blasters weren't doing the most damage. I also recall you bringing a tank to fullmens thought experiment thread concerning scrappers and defense debuff resistance. But you think other people aren't making fair comparisons ? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I don't think it's out of line to call an AT that has a primary that is damage, and an inherent that deals even more damage a "primary damage dealer." Yes, it can buff/debuff, but it is primarily a damage dealer. Most of it's time should not be spent buffing/debuffing, but killing the enemy. Sure, you can play it the other way around, but that was not its design.
The power of the AT is overwhelmingly in buff/debuff. Cold/Dark,Kin, Traps are all going to generate most of their damage and or survivability (read as ability to live to do the damage) from their secondary even when solo. On any team larger than 2 or 3 the bulk of the damage of all the sets is going to come from either buffing the team or debuffing enemies. -
Quote:You were talking about base HP, I was talking about max.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison;37382 26Ok, now you're even misquoting. We were talking about base HP, for one, and further, a Kheldian that "keeps its HP there as long as it wants" is not a damage dealer.
You don't count High Pain Tolerance when comparing Scrappers to Tanks, unless you're only talking about Willpower versions of each. Base HP to base HP, Blasters are not the worst of damage dealing ATs. It's that simple.
And of course a Corruptor's primary purpose on a team is to deal damage. It's primary powers are damage and it's inherent is a way to deal more damage.
You're really starting to fall all over yourself, here. It's just making things worse.
Just an example on corruptors
Cold domination, will do 60% of its total damage from its secondary by debuffing enemies, that is not including the additional damage from the rest of the team. So when an at is deriving most of its damage from debuffing the enemies you call it a primary damage dealer.
Good to know where the goalposts are set in this discussion -
Quote:Let me get this straight you are upset about my supposed spreading misinformationOriginally Posted by Dechs Kaison
And so do blasters, and they have higher base HP. Your statement is still invalid and still completely false.
BUT !!!
You are saying that an AT (heats) that can set its hitpoints at 2100 and keep it there as long as it wants has less hitpoints than an at that tops out at roughly 1600 hp ?
I suppose we shouldn't count High pain tolerance as part of willpowers benefits because not everyone will have it.
Then you toss in AT that overwhelmingly derives its power from its buff/debuff and call it a primary damage dealer ? -
Quote:What you call temporary powers are on demand and capable of being made permanent. Dominators also have the ability to cap their hitpoints and keep them there.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Tell me, what is a corruptor's primary powerset? And what is its inherent?
Soldiers of Arachnos can get a temporary +HP power, if they don't mind a backpack. All blasters can also get a similar power. Widows of course cannot. Kheldians likewise can have extra hitpoints, temporarily, but that also very much limits their offensive abilities. Not all Kheldains choose to use dwarf at all.
You make no attempt to rebut against the Dominator, which has less HP than a blaster. At this point, your initial statement on the matter is proved completely invalid. Blasters do not have the worst HP of the primarily damage dealing ATs.
For someone so picky about misquotes, I find it odd you don't seem to care about misinformation.
You view a corruptor as primary damage, when in the bulk of situations its force multiplication will be dominant. -
Quote:I don't consider corruptors as primarily damage. They are balanced damage team buff/debuffOriginally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Except, he's still right. Blasters have tied hitpoints to stalkers, and more than the other primary damage dealing ATs. Corruptors are primarily about damage, as are VEATS, HEATS, and Dominators. Out of all the primarily damage dealing ATs, only Brutes and Scrappers have better HP.
Veats can have up to 2400 hp and you can build to get it, heats also can have up to 2400 points and can easily get there with the dwarf form. -
Quote:Yeah thats about where I had your level pegged at from your first post buckwheat.Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I take it your assessment is based on your experience as a master baiter.
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My statement
Quote:ala ZombieThere is no legitimate game balance reason for blasters to have the worst hitpoints, and survival buff numbers of any of the primary damage dealing ATs
Here let me quote you the way you quoted meQuote:Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Quote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
There is no legitimate game balance reason for blasters to have the worst hitpoints...
Blaster do not only not have the worst hitpoints in the game, there are 9 other ATs with lesser hit points.
How could you be so wrong about something like this and then come into the forums and make such forceful statements based on ignorance?
Seriously Zombie if you can't read an entire sentence I have no idea where you get off complaining about others ignorance.Quote:Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Blaster .. have the worst hitpoints in the game, there are 9 other ATs with ... hit points. -
Quote:There is no legitimate game balance reason for blasters to have the worst hitpoints, and survival buff numbers of any of the primary damage dealing ATsOriginally Posted by Golden_Avariel
You think? ROFL
Yeah, it was my archery blaster that made me realize that there is no legitimate game-balance reason to have nukes crash endurance. The fact that the latest blaster set doesn't have one seems to tell me the devs know this deep down. I'm kind of hoping that with dark blast's crashing nuke getting moved to blasters they'll finally knuckle down and fix them.... but then my natural pessimism kicks in. -
Quote:Your corruptor has better numbers for self defense and debuff.Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
My corrupter, who has less HP base than a blaster, has no issues with Swords and Battle Maiden Warriors.
See aboveQuote:
Blasters can get a +SM/L def shield in their epic/patron pool just like my Corr did.
The blaster needs to go for survivability you would have gotten that if you had readQuote:You've listed no options there that are not also available to blasters, or anybody else for that matter.
Quote:The new incarnate abilities help blasters plaster over weak spots, which is good because the new content practically forces them to do so. While blasters are trying to desperately fix the giant flaws in the AT, other ATs are able to amplify their strengths.
LOL, maybe you aren't very good at baiting people ?Quote:Maybe you're just not a very good player. -
Quote:The melee character only really needs to worry about the blue patches the blaster has to worry about everything. The problem with the swords and battle maiden warriors is they get to you. Its only a personal impression but my blasters seem to lose more dps from dealing with the enemies than my melee toons do from hopping out of a blue patch and moving battle maiden along.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It feels like we've been over this a hundred times before, A_F, so I'll limit myself to just one comment.
If meleers in the know being able to dodge blue patches impresses you, just imagine for a moment a blaster who can maintain constant high DPS fire on battle maiden for the entire fight, while dodging swords, warriors, and patches. This may be a radical concept but blasters don't actually have to sit still to run their attack chains. Meleers do. -
To the OP: First you have to remember that the people who say the performance numbers don't matter are the same people who said brutes wouldn't make scrappers obsolete and that defenders didn't need a buff against corruptors.
Bugs bunny can ignore gravity because he didn't study law, you can't.
Quote:The burst damage advantage was gone long before judgement. Against all Odds+buildup, Rage+Fury+Fiery Embrace, etc really just wadded it up and tossed in the trash.Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Of course they will. There's no real question of that at all; The question that's sparked interminable debate is whether their sacrifices in terms of defense compared to their closest damage rivals - Scrappers and Brutes - is worth their damage and range advantage. Burstwise, this damage advantage has proportionally shrunk with the advent of Judgement attacks.
What judgement does is give everyone the big AoE damage that will kill minions quickly that a blaster was bringing. In the case of buff/debuff ats it gives them a nuke that is significantly better than all blaster nukes that is pretty significant.Quote:That said, I don't think this performance gap has really gotten any wider since I20. Yes, Judgement has proliferated, but there are countering factors.
The swarms of +3 swords and battle maiden warriors would beg to differ about any squishy being boss on the apex. Any armored at that can get the hang of jumping when the ground turns blue has no trouble with the blue rain of death, the same can't be said of unarmored characters being pureed by escapees from a Ray Haryhausen movie.Quote:First, that we've seen in recent content some new mechanics where that range advantage actually proves significant. Blasters are boss on Apex. They're are also extremely helpful during the BAF Escapee phase, moreso than their melee counterparts; and their range is also useful during the final confrontation in the KIR, especially as Entanglement and Obliteration beams rear their heads.
The new incarnate abilities help blasters plaster over weak spots, which is good because the new content practically forces them to do so. While blasters are trying to desperately fix the giant flaws in the AT, other ATs are able to amplify their strengths.Quote:Second, the Judgement burst damage gap is not the only one that's closed. Now Blasters have Destiny, which either gives them the ability to ignore mez like their non-squishy counterparts, or temporarily achieve their defenses.
Your fire shield scrapper is able to take reactive, core pets for the extra damage, and can achieve truly insane levels of mitigation with rebirth, or has the option of upping the damage output with musculature and taking ageless.
They literally have even less effect and significance than they had before.Quote:So while I think Blasters could use a little help, if you've been fine with how Blasters were balanced before, I don't really see why you'd stop playing them in a post-I20 world. -
Quote:Everybody has a primary and a secondary, having one doesn't automatically compensate for the other not pulling its weight.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I think you've got a few blind spots. I won't argue with some tweaks, but just a few standouts here to consider:
Do they use their secondary (or, in the case of a controller, primary?)
If so, they're still teammates. If not, they're leeches regardless.
You are pointing out the flaw in your own argument there was less benefit before, now compounding with the primary there is even less benefit. This is supposed to compensate ?Quote:You're ignoring primary (or, again, controller=secondary) again. Especially post-32, where the controller can use their pet(s) as targets for a debuff, to shield them, etc. (Same with FF, though yes, there's less benefit.)
When you say most of your career how do you measure ? By the number of levels or the time spent in level. The characters I like, I have played hundreds of hours after reaching 50. It doesn't take them nearly as long to get there.Quote:Sonic, I'm debuffing from level 1. Thermal, I have to hit 38 before I'm affecting resistance (letting me hit harder,) and 35 before I have any debuffs at all. My solo build for my Dark/Thermal? One power from Thermal for most of her "career."
Its about balance. If you are underperforming in one way it needs to be compensated for in another way.Quote:
Honestly - and this is a general statement - it feels like so many people just want to homogenize everything with threads like this. Give us all sets that are 99% the same in values and effects, just with different effects. Blah. Boring. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Historically speaking my time estimates have never to my knowledge been materially wrong. Even when I've publicly disagreed with the red names my record is still intact on that one. So I'm going to go with that for now.
I was talking about the margins in design or change of powers. I am completely unfamiliar with your record on estimating development time. Unless you are acting as a project manager for Paragon studios, it really doesn't matter to me, except as possibly a proposition bet question -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was just conveying the fact that I actually know what's involved in either creating or altering the design of a powerset, so I can say with certainty that non-cosmetic changes to powersets are usually more expensive in resources than players tend to guess.
Historically the margin for error seems immense. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You'd be stealing time away from making new powersets. Assembling a powerset is not just a matter of pulling powers from different places together into a list of nine. Even if you completely eliminate the time it takes to construct the individual powers and animations, you're left with significant design, balance and testing reviews of the sets which would significantly reduce the number of new powersets we'd get over time. Not just player powersets, but also critter powersets which is tantamount to saying we'd get less new critter types as well.
Once you open the floodgates to making optional powers in existing powersets, you'd probably be losing a lot of new powersets and new critters goodbye or at least delaying them by a lot. Its trivially easy to do in the sense that the work is very straight forward. But you'd be kissing lots of other stuff goodbye when you did it.
Ignoring the facts that the repaired powersets would be new powersets, and the time to make the changes could actually be considerably less than the 1/9th first glance. They don't need entirely new animations or mechanics like titan weapons after all and can borrow from existing powers. By example the game has a grenade throw animation that can be ported directly into devices. There is the simple concept of fixing what is broken, instead of trying to push something new.
If you just want to convey that we won't be likely to get major fixes to existing powersets in the future you are likely right. I would hazard it's more from the fact, that new powersets can be sold, while maintenance would expected to be included in the sub. -
Quote:Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Say what you want about her forum rep but when she's ingame the term I hear most often would be 'Git R done'. She produces results while keeping everyone happy and involved. Just sayin' rumors are bad.
Look if you come on the boards and say something is a joyous lark for you when it isn't and you are completely misrepresenting the experience and your relationship to it, you can expect to be called on it. Not many people have had leagues revolt. -
Quote:People need to ask around about your history with trials. I wish forum rules allowed me to post the things I have heard.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Trials are all casual friendly - players just need to know what they're doing in them
