Argentae

Whelp, over the weekend I couldn't resist anymore.

Got Umbracane created and he's up to the mid twenties as of last night. Wasn't quite as easy a trip up as Dark/Dark, but then /Storm is much later blooming than /Dark is, so that's not unexpected. Have to say that the levels from 16 -> 22 is even MORE key for Dark/Storm than it is for many other builds.

16: Freezing Rain - key power and game changer for any /Storm
18: Haunt - major power for Dark/ and a wonderful aim-able smart missle
20: Hurricane - This is the missing piece for the -ToHit soft control, /Dark gets Darkest Night a lot sooner, but Hurricane is far more flexible.
22 (As always): SOs! Woot Woot! You finally start to get a feel for how the build will play long term, plus you can finally get on top of your end issues… Until you start summoning Tornado/Lightning Storm.

My interpretation of Dark/Storm is focused on AOE above all, so the single target abilities are a bit anemic till the slots available catches up with the powers that need 'em.

Some observations:

1. As with any /Storm, endurance issues are a major problem.
2. Using Hurricane's -ToHit debuff is substantially more complex than Darkest Night, but it's critical to Dark/Storm's ability to handle really large spawns.
3. I think I'm going to have to pickup Snow Storm even though I wasn't planning on it, more on that below.
4. Dark/Storm is going to take some incoming fire that gets through the -ToHit, and lacks /Dark's massive self healing capability. As a result I've picked up Aid Other/Self, which helps quite a bit.
5. As in my Dark/Dark I have little use for traditional AOE controls. I much prefer to just use Fearsome Stare and Hurricane.
6. Gale is actually useful, and a decent part of my attack chain, more on that below.

As mentioned in my other thread about pondering a Dark/Storm one of the things I wanted to explore was the possibility of using gale as a regular part of my attack chain. I've had such great success using 4 procs in Living Shadows on my Dark/Dark that using Gale as a supplement for Living Shadows seems reasonable.

These are the damage/attack procs that those two can hold AFAIK:

Gale:

Force Feedback +Rech
Explosive Strike +Smashing
Posi Blast +Energy
Javelin Volley +Lethal

Living Shadows:

Posi Blast +Energy
Javelin Volley +Lethal
Trap of the Hunter + Lethal
Cloud Senses +Negative
ATO WotC +Psi

At the moment I've got this:

Gale:

Force Feedback +Rech
Explosive Strike +Smashing
Posi Blast +Energy
Acc SO

Living Shadows:

Posi Blast +Energy
Trap of the Hunter + Lethal
Cloud Senses +Negative
2 EndRed SO
Acc SO

Based on my long experience playing characters without fitness (it used to be a "thing" for me before fitness became an inherent, I didn't ALWAYS skip Fitness but I did where possible) I slotted an endred in every power I use in my attack chain/setup.

The lowest level +Rech Force Feedback Proc I could find was a 27, so I didn't get chance to play with it till 24. :: shrug :: Even though Force Feedback only fires every X seconds no matter how many hits you have with it, it does seem to make a tangible difference.

In play I've found things gelling around lvl 24/25, though now that I'm dusting off/improving my old skills with Hurricane I'm really seeing just how AMAZING this build will be once Tornado/Lightning Storm are added into the mix. With any corner, or even a wall I can clump a +8 sized spawn into a VERY tight clump, just right for Tornado to tear to tiny tiny pieces.

Actually, you don't really even need a wall, with the -immob -KB from Living Shadows you can carefully use Hurricane to act as it's own wall, collecting the spawn into a semi-circular line, then push one end of the line towards the other to again create a nice tight clump. I find Living Shadows works better for this purpose than Fire Cages does as it's got more reach to affect all the spawn before you start pushing them with Hurricane. Well after you start with Fearsome Stare of course.

Gale: I'm actually finding Gale quite useful. It can speed up the clumping process if there IS a wall handy by firing Gale and then Living Shadows instead of the reverse which is more my normal chain. The Force Feedback is not at all game breaking, but it's certainly useful and worth the slot. My thinking is that if you're going to be spamming Gale for the + rech boost, then you might just as well use it to actually do DAMAGE, and Gale's tremendous cone angle and recharge for a pittance of end, it makes a perfect candidate for +dmg procs. If it was the only proc dmg cone you had, I really don't know it would be worth it, but paired with Living Shadows, it's quite effective.

Snow Storm: One of the biggest problems Dark/Storm has running at +0/+8 before the build really matures is maps where the spawns are are broken up with doorwarys etc. I ran into the same problem with my Plant/Storm and found that Snow Storm made a great tool for pulling spawns into a part of the map with geometry more to my benefit. There's something fun about triggering the anchor and then racing through a doorway with Hurricane on and watching the spawn trickle through to be tossed into a corner where they pile up just waiting for me to demolish them. Haven't picked up Snow Storm yet, but I think it's going to be my pick at 26.

I'll be able to slot the Numina Proc I've got waiting once I get to lvl 27, and I think I'm going to need the Miracle one too to deal with the huge end demends once Tornado and Lightning Storm start sucking up my end in great greedy gulps.

Single target: As mentioned, my single target controls have been somewhat neglected as I've focused on getting Fearsome stare six slotted to (temporarily, until I have a 6 pack of Cloud Senses usable) hold the ATO set, Living Shadows to hold it's procs and SOs, Gale 4 slotted etc. Even with only two or three slots for Dark Grasp and Possess each, they work admirably well for what I need at this point in the build's development. The ability to use Steamy Mist and a Celerity in Sprint (actually powerslide) to scout out the spawn and confuse LT's before opening the fight, is key to survival in many cases. I'm tentatively planning to put the six ATO into Dark Grasp when I respec them out of Fearsome Stare and put Cloud Senses in there.

Speaking of single target, I've also picked up the ST immob and find it very useful for immobing mobs that get missed by Living Shadows and those resistant to immobs before they scramble around hurricane and get behind me. I'll probably eventually 3-4 slot it to help with single target damage. Might even 5 slot it to hold a set? It'll depend on slot availablity later on I'm sure.

I'm thinking that I'll probably do a lot of 4 slotting pets with Exped Reinforcement or Call to Arms to save slots. Also have to ponder the Kinetic Crash set for Tornado/Lightning storm, it's not ideal, but it's a decent bunch of +Dmg, + End, +Rech, costs next to nothing last I looked and has good set bonuses with the -KB protection and +7.5 rech. I think it'll come down to looking at the other set bonuses of other sets as it always does.

4 pack of Dark Watcher in Hurricane probably.

Hrm…

Anyway, much to think about and play with, but Dark/Storm may be slower out of the gate, but it does not disappoint.

I'd love to hear about any thoughts/experience anyone else has?

Arg

I was planning to use a full 6 pack of Cloud Senses in Fearsome Stare, but it's not a unique so I'd probably use one in FS and another in Living Shadows..

The procs I listed for LS are all the dmg procs it CAN slot. I'd probably only slot 4-5 of them as you really need at least one slot (prob 2) for Acc/Endred etc. I'm really not big on +hold procs esp on a Dark/. The -ToHit is really all I need for the mass of the spawn, AOE control other than -Immob is wasted for me.

Having played my Dark/Dark through a large amount of incarnate content, I've got a pretty good feel for Dark in the end game as well as on the way up, and having cones that mesh is REALLY the way to go. I completely melt spawns with FS -> LS -> Bile Spray, and have since long before I got any incarnate abilities, they just make it BETTER.

Having another cone added into the mix would just be even better. Will I have slots for it? Absolutely. As I largely don't need the AOE controls, and several powers out of /Storm are skippable (Snow Storm, O2 Boost, Thunderclap), I'll be pretty flush with power slots and should have ample enh slots to go around.

Long term I plan on 6 slotting Coercive Persuasion in Possess, the question becomes what to do with the ATO set? On my Dark/Dark I have a 5 pack of WotC in Dark Grasp, and the WotC proc in LS. Here I think I'll keep all 6 WotC together for the additional +ranged def, the question is, should they all go in Dark Graps or elsewhere? Once I hit 10th I think I'll probably put the ATO 6 pack in FS to get the use out of the proc and help with rech, end and acc. But once I get up into the mid 20's I'll probably respec the ATO set out of FS and put a 6 pack of Cloud senses in their place.

Arg

I've been looking at Dark/Storm for quite awhile and thinking about possibilities.

Given how much time I've spent looking at leveraging procs, I decided to take a look at possibly the most maligned power in /Storm: Gale. Looks like it could actually be made pretty decent with some procs? Looking at what it can take I come up with:

Force Feedback +Rech
Explosive Strike +Smashing
Posi Blast +Energy
Javelin Volley +Lethal

With those 4 procs you turn a quasi-useless (Hurricane is generally FAR better for positioning) AOE power into what should be a decent attack power that provides a very hefty +rech boost when working with a decent sized spawn. As it's a wide cone, it should fit very nicely with Living Shadows and Fearsome stare, and the three of them together Should provide pretty dang good AOE dmg before you even get into /Storm's major dmg powers.

Living Shadows can also hold more procs than I thought:

Posi Blast +Energy
Javelin Volley +Lethal
Glad Net +Lethal
Trap of the Hunter + Lethal
Cloud Senses +Negative
ATO WotC +Psi

Very expensive to collect some of them, but not bad for those that like the sow's ear -> purse style of build tweaking.

Arg

Dusted off my 32 Grav/Storm, and played him a bit last night. I have to say it's much improved. Wormhole is now completely awesome, the changes make it an incredible power. Grav/ is absolutely the best powerset for pulling/separating spawns in the entire game.

Dim shift is even decent, not a major power, but much more useful.

The modified Propel is excellent.

Overall, I was quite pleased. This validates my long standing policy of never deleting any controller over lvl 20, 'cause you never know.

Arg

If you use Bonfire on +5 mobs the KB is reduced to KD and you can see EXACTLY how it would work with the KB->KD IO. Assuming that it all works as advertised it makes them flop like fish out of water. I've used it several times that way and it totally eliminates the need for any other control for most spawns. I'm assuming it'll get nerfed HARD unless Ice/ gets a hefty buff.

S'ok, I'm looking forward to KD tornado almost as much.

Arg

With the knockback -> KD I'd probably put it in Bonfire on my Fire/Storm. Bonfire with KD is an AWESOME control tool in addition to being fabulous AOE dmg. It would be incredible. it's also substantially easier to stack Bonfire (45 sec duration with only 60 rech vs only 30 sec duration with the same 60 sec rech for tornado).

Tornado is absolutely the weapon of choice for single hard targets, but many of the toughest are already kb proof, and it's much easier to kb proof a single target with ring of fire.

Arg

Nevermind, my brain seems to be warming up. For anyone else looking the relevant thread/posts are here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=289673&page=2

Arg

A KB to KD IO would have a huge impact on Fire/ (having bonfire act like it does with +5 mobs for EVERYONE? Yes please!) AND /Storm's Tornado. Even if you can only have the one since it's unique it would make a tremendous difference to how those two powers play.

Just, wow. I wouldn't have expected them to make that available.

Obviously I need to do some reading.

And yes, Fire/ with a KD version of bonfire would be my pick. It turns Bonfire into BOTH an easily used dmg power and a fantastic soft control, like adding ice slick to Fire/ but with quite decent AOE dmg. Wow. I don't know if I want to make a new Fire/Dark or a Dark/Storm now!?

Arg

It's worth noting that secondaries DO interact differently with the different primaries. Using Kin as the obvious example, Fire/ will tend to get a better boost from FS than Plant will because of Hotfeet.

I'd also mention that Dark/ is up there too IME. Living Shadows can slot an extra proc (Cloud Senses) compared to Fire Cages and Roots, and the 2 Shades + Mrs O'Leary >> Twitchy in terms of both dmg and utility. Dark also has MUCH better survivability than either Fire/ or Plant/ between the -ToHit and the superior single target control afforded by Possess.

Personally I've been spoiled by Dark/, so I'm kinda biased atm.

Arg

That's really tough.

AOE:

Creepers >> Bonfire for many reasons, but you also have to factor in Hot Feet.

Personally I'd probably give the nod to Plant based on the damage contribution from Seeds being more than you get from HotFeet for mobs that aren't confuse resistant. Without the massive +dmg from Fulcrum shift (we're leaving secondaries out) the spawn would (IMO/E) melt faster with Plant so your drops/time would be a lot better.

Single Target:

I'd tend to put Fire over Plant for single target as the Imps will EASILY out damage Twitchy, and Seeds really doesn't come into play at all. Creepers effect would also be minimized via single target.

So based on my playstyle with Plant and Fire (several of 40's/50's of each) that's how I'd break them down.

Of course a lot would depend on the specifics; vs Nemesis for instance, Fire would win hands down. Against a single target that uses a lot of AOE, the imps are likely to die pretty fast so Plant *might* look better given how much better it plays at range.

Arg

Two quick comments on the posted build with slotting:

1. Fearsome stare IS my mitigation on my Incarnate Dark/Dark. Slotting it with WotC enhances the fear duration, which IMO, is a waste. FS is one of the best alpha neutering openers in the entire game, and really REALLY needs to be optimized for -ToHit. I slotted mine with a 6 pack of Cloud Senses and couldn't be happier.

2. Living Shadows is an excellent AOE dmg power when fully slotted with dmg procs. I have mine slotted with store bought (so they use the PPM algo) Posi and Trap of the Hunter procs, the WotC proc and the Cloud Senses proc. The last 2 slots are franken slotted for Acc/End/Rech. It pairs perfectly with FS and literally MELTS spawns.

Arg

Even in the end game/incarnate content, I find myself using Possess quite frequently.

It's invaluable for bringing outliers into the main clump of a spawn so they get hit with FS and LS with everyone else. It's also hugely helpful when you've got a LT that gets behind you for some reason. Or (as always) when you've got buff/debuff LT's that you'd rather have on your side than beating on you/pets.

Seriously, Possess is a gem of a power that I've found invaluable from the time I got it all the way till now. Even if you don't use single target controls much, it's a place to slot Coercive Persuasion, which is an EXCELLENT set for Dark/Dark once you can afford it.

Arg

Still not sure if this is the character I'll play with the kids, but over the weekend I made a Dark/Dark Dom and a Dark/Time controller to try out some sets I haven't played with yet.

Have to say I'm really enjoying the Dark/Time controller. As soon as he hit lvl 6 (Living Shadows 5 slotted with the 5 GR proc/enh) I took him to Perez and started taking out spawns with the help of lots of insps from the hospital vendor there.

I LOVE the combo of the Dark and Time FX. I went with a bizzare combo of purple and something chartreuse (ish) for both and they mesh really well. Time's juncture is flat out awesome, and I can only imagine how effective it's going to be when I've got Fearsome Stare to pair it with. I like TJ better than Darkest night because:

1. I can have it going before I start in on a spawn.
2. It doesn't shut off mid spawn as it's a toggle not an anchor.
3. The FX make it easier to see what is being affected than with Darkest Night.

IIRC I had to log shortly before I hit 8th, but so far it's a fun combo.

Anyone with more experience with Dark/Time have any tips? Esp anything relating to synergies between the two...

Arg

A few comments:

1. Coercive Persuasion is one of the best purples available to a Dark/Dark if you are going for ranged def.

2. After trying some options I've come to agree with others that Cloud Senses is the best set for Fluffy and Fearsome Stare, at least if you're going for caped ranged def. And maxing out the -ToHit is what Dark/Dark is all about IMO.

3. This is a big one: As LM mentioned, Living Shadows is AMAZING when slotted with 4 procs. Specifically, if you have the ability, I'd buy the Posi proc and Trap of the Hunter Proc from the marketplace with Paragon points. The different proc firing algo that store bought procs use works really well with AOE immobs. The other two procs I use are the Will of the Controller proc and the Cloud Senses proc. I use the other two slots for frankenslotting the acc, rech and endred needed.

This may be unorthodox, but in the process of playing my Dark/Dark up into the incarnate content I've totally dropped any attempt for traditional AOE control. Seriously. The -ToHit + heavy def (esp ranged) that Dark/Dark puts out makes actually applying a status effect to the spawn redundant. Heart of Darkness is totally unnecessary. I did take Shadow Field, but more as an additional -ToHit when needed.

Arg

Thanks for the ideas/feedback.

@ Two5boy: I hear you about Ill/Dark, but I don't know that the fundamentally chaotic nature of Ill would mesh really well with supporting the kids? My daughter is the tank, and my son is currently playing a Bot/Storm MM. The Bots would be fine with the chaos, but it would make Freezing rain kinda useless.

@ Vimes_NA: ::nods:: I think you may be right. It's really about enabling THEM to have fun, and Kinetics does that really well. They'd probably get a kick out of things that I usually wouldn't bother with like Repel: Mob golf anyone?! Great insight about /Time, I appreciate it. It's a set that I'm interested in, but just looking at it it seems pretty control heavy which Dark/ really doesn't need.

I have to admit, as a LONG time Kinetics player (my original main Argentae was a Mind/Kin that I spent a fair amount of time soloing back in I-2 when it was really sloooooow to solo a controller ), I'd enjoy being a /Kin again.

Kinetics lacks a -ToHit or +Def to pair up with the -ToHit from Dark/ though so the kids characters will have vital roles to play, Kinetics will just make them better at what they do. Lord knows I'll be able to keep the tank upright through almost anything! And as She's WP/, the -ToHit from RttC should pair nicely with the opening -ToHit from Dark/.

Hmmm...

Arg

So, Shadow Fallen (Dark/Dark) is well into the incarnate content, and is getting so effective that it's no longer a good fit for playing with my 9 year old daughter and 10 year old son.

I'm pondering a new alt for playing with them while I keep working on the Dark/Dark incarnate, because it's THAT great a combo.

I'm really tempted to go with a Dark/? to try out how amazingly effective Fearsome Stare is with other secondaries.

The three main ones I'm considering are: /Kin, /Storm or /Time. Rad is also a possibility but it doesn't seem to have quite the synergy that the others have?

/Kin: Fearsome Stare is one of the best FS setup powers in the game. Dark/ would help tremendously with the fundamental fragility of /Kin, while /Kin would boost the damage output of Dark/ enormously, while providing first rate team buffs.

/Storm: The -ToHit and positioning capabilities from Hurricane would mesh REALLY well with Fearsome Stare, and the -Def in Freezing Rain would be an much welcomed debuff. In the late game, the ability to have multiple Tornadoes out + Lightning storm would really amp up the single hard target damage that the set could provide.

/Time has a lot of synergy with -ToHit as well bringing a lot of +rech to the table in the late game. This is the only Secondary I haven't played with enough to have a good feel for the synergies with Dark/

/Rad is always a possibility as it's such a well rounded set, esp with the -Regen it brings to the table.

So for those that have tried out some of the other Dark/ combos, what has you experience been? What would you try if it was your choice, and why?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and insights...

Arg

If you have a lot of pets/psuedo pets (6+) and you were planning on going with Reactive for the interface slot, what path would you follow in the Interface ability Reactive tree?

Arg

Update:
Getting to a tier 3 Alpha didn't take as long as I thought it would. Yay for a +1 level shift!

Given how much more time it takes to get from Tier 3 to Tier 4 (based on the components you need to have), I think I'm going to start collecting components for Interface: Reactive which is a bit over 60% unlocked atm.

Then I'll work Interface up to tier 3, then start on Destiny and get that up to tier 3 for the second level shift etc.

Eventually I'll go back and work on the Alpha slot again, and at that point I'll focus on getting a tier 4 Intuition as Muon suggested.
Long road, but looks like it will be fun.

Arg

Woot!

I've gotten pretty lucky with the rewards on the random component reward table going through arcs in DA. Got a Rare last time and just got an uncommon upon finishing Praetor Duncan's arc.

Since I chose the ones I'll need in the musculature tree, I now need only 9 incarnate threads to finish the tier 2 Musculature, and I already have the rare I need for the radial tier 3!

Soooo I guess I'm going with Musculature over intuition.

Arg

Heh.

Me too... Totally missed the datestamp there.

Arg