Plant/Sonic controller

I ran a plant/fire dom up to 50. Had a great time with him. Some friends wanted to run some new toons, so I rolled up a plant/sonic troller. The experience is so different, I'm at a bit of a loss deciding what to do. And I'm looking for some advice on what to aim for with this toon.

So, the way a plant/* dom typically runs is to open with Seeds of Confusion (aoe confuse) and then start blasting away with attacks from secondary to melt the spawn down. I typically only needs holds for bosses or the few I miss with SoC.

But with a plant/* troller.... there is no blasting away with anything. The secondaries have no damaging attacks. The primary (I won't have pets for quite a while) doesn't really have much in the way of damage -- just the holds and immobs. It just feels so slow, slow, slow.


My thoughts:

First, I actually picked up Boxing for damage. Fast activation, decent damage, low end cost. I'd usually go for Air Superiority, but plant effects have so much -KB that I doubt the knockup will see much use.

Second, I was thinking I might slot the ST hold and immob for damage rather than control. My usual accx2/holdx2/rechx2 generally gives me more control than I typically need on the dom. Maybe I could get away with accx2/hold/rech/damx2 and actually kill things in real time instead of geologic time.

Any other ideas? Anyone else find much success with a plant troller?

Remember that controllers and doms while there is some overlap, are different ATs therefore play differently.

Doms are control/damage a more offensive set, whereas the controller is control/buff-debuff a more defensive/support set. And just because that "terrible" word support is there it doesn't mean wimpy. On the contrary, controllers can be some of the nastiest toons in Coh/v. Since your teaming, I wouldn't worry too much about picking up damage powers (unless you do a fair share of soloing) and think about making your character a good balance of primary and secondary. Early game your more offensive AT'd friends will be able to dish out way more damage than you, but you will make them gods of damage while you make your enemies statues (or idiots shooting each other in plants case ). Eventually when you get into your epics you can start really thinking about damage and resists/defense as your build should be fairly well rounded by then. At that point you'll "get" what it is so many of us love about the AT.

Yeah, definitely slot your single target immobilise as an attack. It lasts 29 seconds and recharges in 4s, so dont even think of putting immobilise enhancers in there.

Your hold, its up to you. I've had solo controllers who do just that, the base duration is over 20s, so you dont need hold enhancements as much as a dominator did.

Plant will do decent AoE damage.
Carrion Creepers helps quite a bit.
Your AoE immobilise does twice the damage of all other controller ones, to the point where its worth slotting for damage, especially when Containment gets factored in. You can also stick Trap of the Hunter and Positrons Blast damage proc IOs in there for cheap damage proc spamming.
And then Seeds of COnfusion helps speed things up.

You'll be at your best against large groups of lower level enemies, and the new difficulty settings allow you to do just this.

Maybe my perceptions are being skewed by having run a ill/ff troller to 50. Between the phantom army at 16 and the ST confuse, soloing seemed comparable to other ATs altho not blisteringly fast. When I got the phantasm at 32, soloing really picked up. Plant/sonic just seems glacially slow right now at 12.

And while I'm hoping to team about half the time, I'd like my time soloing to be somewhat pleasant.

The aoe confuse is great -- but I only get xp if I can deal some damage before they're dead. And all my damage comes with control effects which hamper the confused targets from dishing out any additional damage.

Maybe it's just the disappointment coming off playing mostly redside ATs lately. All of them solo really well, almost right out of the box. Defenders and controllers just seem... pointlessly painful by comparison.

On a more constructive note, any ideas for making soloing less painful while I slog thru the next 20-30 levels?

To further expand on what MM said, you probably need to shift your way of thinking about the character. Controllers are quite different from Dominators even though they share a powerset. Controllers are very different from Defenders, too, (and Corrupters) even though they share a powerset.

You can build some controllers for damage, but it is really a compromise. You can solo controllers, but especially in low levels, it is pretty slow. Controllers are made to Control and Buff/Debuff. Sonic, in particular, is a team support secondary, not that great for improving your own damage, but great at reducing the damage taken by your team and eventually buffing the team damage. If you want to play a controller well, you need to embrace the purpose instead of fighting against it.

I'm not a fan at all of the Fighting Pool for a controller. If you really need an attack, use Air Superiority since it provides a quasi-control, too. Sometimes both your single target hold and Seeds are recharging, and AirSup's knockdown can be a huge help. Controllers have so many powers that will support their primary purpose that Damage should be only considered after the entire spawn is locked down and the team is doing everything it can. I would take Leadership over Fighting on a Controller unless I expected to solo.

I took a Plant/Rad to 50, and I'm working on a Plant/Storm and a Plant/Kin. For a control set, Plant actually has pretty high damage. But that is AoE DoT -- so don't expect to kill much yourself. Plant's damage comes mostly from the fact that the AoE Immobilize does twice the damage as other controllers. Plus, Carrion Creepers provides some decent AoE damage over time. So, that just means that your teammates will have to do a little less damage to take down the foes.

The key is, as you said, casting Seeds of Confusion, then pause for a second to let the group gather closer, then throw Roots. Slot Roots for 2 Accuracy, 3 Damage and 1 EndRdx or Recharge. After the main body of foes are under your control, then look for individuals who escaped -- bosses, foes who were missed or outside of your cone. Throw Roots again whenever it is up, but while Roots recharges and if everyone else is controlled, then look to your secondary to see what you can do to help your teammates do more damage or take less damage. Let the teammates do the job of taking down the foes -- your job is to make it easier and faster for them. You can slot Strangler for damage, depending upon your team and how fast they take down the foes. A slow team will need more control.

On my Plant Controllers, I take Strangler, Roots, Seeds, Vines, Carrion Creepers and the pet as "necessary" powers. I generally skip Entangle unless I expect to solo a lot. I have taken Spirit Tree as a team Regen buff, but it is entirely optional. I skip Spore Burst. Hasten and the fitness pool are mandatory.

I haven't taken a Sonic up very high, so I'm hesitant to suggest much there. The shields are important for Team Support, and then look to buff up the team/debuff the foes as much as you can.

Nice comments and analysis there, Local Man.

As far as team support goes... I've run my ill/ff troller on teams, and I'm more than happy to bubble as needed, use force bolt to catapult strays back at the tank, spectral terror everyone into submission, etc. I don't need kill credit. I know other guys will dish out more damage than me, faster than me. I am okay with that.

However, I do expect to solo maybe half the time, so soloing speed is somewhat important to me. Definitely going to keep Entangle and slot it for damage.

The Air Superiority vs Boxing thing. I have enough vet rewards that I don't need AirSup as a prereq to flight. Second, I was thinking that since pretty much everything in Plant had -KB, that I was pretty much only going to be getting the damage out of it anyway. It just seemed like a wash. Third, AirSup is so much better than most tier 1 melee attacks and pool attacks I often take it on my other characters. I only take Boxing as a (wasted) prereq for Tough & Weave. I thought it would be fun for a change to take it and actually use it. Anyway, I may well respec out of Boxing later if/when Carrion Creepers or Fly Trap render it less useful.

Looks like I'll probably burn a respec and swap out Spore Burst for Roots. I tried on both the dom and the troller to make Spore Burst useful, but it never seems to last more than a sec on a team anyway. I really never thought of Roots for damage tho -- the dom has so much better tools for aoe damage that Roots is just a 2nd rate control. And without an aoe confuse, an aoe immobilize generally winds up being a suicidal move. Interesting combo.

Another reason for keeping Entangle, I guess, is that it stacks with Roots. Altho eventually with Creepers and Fly Trap spamming immobilizes, that's less of an issue.


Here's a related mechanics question I don't know the answer to...

Entangle does X ticks of Y damage every Z seconds. If I Entangle a second time before all X ticks have gone off, what happens? I still get the X ticks from both Entangles? I lose the pending ticks from the first Entangle and just get the ticks from the second one? It just accumulates X more ticks after the fist X ticks have finished?

So, just some followup on the subject. I respec'd, and at 12, I basically looked like this:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Papa Papaya: Level 13 Mutation Controller
Primary Power Set: Plant Control
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Resonance
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Fitness

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Strangler Acc(A), Acc(3), Dmg(9)
Level 1: Sonic Siphon Acc(A), RechRdx(5)
Level 2: Entangle Acc(A), Acc(3), Dmg(7)
Level 4: Sonic Barrier EndRdx(A), ResDam(5)
Level 6: Boxing Acc(A), Acc(7)
Level 8: Seeds of Confusion Acc(A), Acc(9), Conf(11)
Level 10: Roots Acc(A), Acc(11)
Level 12: Swift Run(A)


I took him (solo) on the Kings Row safeguard mission, and it worked out great! Opening with Seeds, spamming Roots when it was up, and then Entangle, Boxing, Sonic Siphon as needed on groups worked well. On single targets, opening with Sonic Siphon, then Strangler, Entangle, Boxing. It was not as speedy as a blaster or scrapper. It was not as slow as an empathy defender. I'd put it at the same speed as a offensively built tanker -- about in the middle. Soloing performance I could live with.


Some observations....

Seeds of Confusion was slotted wrong. It would have gone better with rech instead of conf, so it could be up more often. The clumping effect caused by the aoe confusion really helps to make sure everyone is in the Roots area. Several times I had to wait for it to recharge, whereas the confuse duration itself was less important while soloing.

I'm rethinking the Boxing vs Air Superiority debate. While pretty much everything in Plant has -KB and -Fly, the only thing that works on actual in-the-air flying creatures is Seeds of Confusion. It took much longer to take out 2 flying clockwork oscillators with Seeds/Boxing/Brawl than to take out 3-4 Skulls, Hellions, or Clockworks. It might be really painful fighting ghosts and witches in Croatoa without Air Superiority to knock them to the ground where my damaging powers can be used. I think I'll leave Boxing in for now, but I may swap it out to Air Superiority later (sigh) if I start having major flying mob problems. Or just be more diligent about avoiding flying mobs.

I noticed that all the Plant damage is dot-based. Because of the differences between the dot duration, immobilization duration, and power recharge, it's an easy mistake to make throwing another Entangle on even though the mob was going to die from his current afflictions anyway. You could waste a lot of endurance that way. After a while, I got a much better feel for whether the current Entangle would kill a mob, or whether he needed one more (or even just a Boxing punch).

Off the build topic, I did actually clear the safeguard map and did all the side missions, which is something I don't always manage even on other toons. I almost didn't find the second side mission in time. As it turned out, it was a "defuse the bombs" mission. I defused the last bomb with 3 seconds to spare. Got a very rare down-to-the-wire feel on that one. Very fun.


Anyway, thanks for all the comments and feedback. When this guy gets a little higher and his powers mature a bit, I may post a Plant/Sonic guide with this info. Thanks everyone!

NECROPOST!

Y'all realize that Icemanstryketh was responding to a thread that was over 2.5 years old?

Heh.

Me too... Totally missed the datestamp there.

Arg