_Deth_

Unfortunately, we can only speculate as to what will happen when GR is released. I am speaking from experience with other games where I have seen this exact scenario occur. One class gets buffed to hell, or one faction gets access to a class they didn't have before, they see the strengths and weaknesses, and say, well, the weaknesses are heavily outweighed by the strengths. I have seen classes completely reworked to deal with that exact problem, but the perception was already there, and that takes a long time to change. Sure tanks are tougher out of the box, I am not arguing they are not. As far as what is required for the current content tho, a well built, well played brute can easily stand in for a tank.

Defenders can definitely be replaced, but that scenario plays out differently. The main job of the defender is keeping up those buffs, keeping up those heals, and so on. With corruptors and controllers, that is secondary. It requires them to think about more than their primary task, and split their attention between the enemies and their teammates. Yes, with multiple controllers, corruptors, and MMs on a team, they should, but often don't make up for that one defender. It is much easier for a tank to be replaced by a brute, and to a lesser extant a scrapper. All the brute has to do is keep doing what he would normally do, he has all the tools, including taunt. The scrapper would have to concentrate more on aggro control, as they don't have access to taunt, but generally wouldn't be that put out by it.

And that is really what it comes down to. The casual player base and the farmers will still want tanks, but those of us doing content, running the TFs and the like, well, perceptions may change.

Now, maybe they will push the envelope a bit, actually bring some challenge to the content. That alone would be enough to save tanks, and I believe would breathe new life into the game, but brings about the possibility of alienating the casual player.

And, again, if you don't agree, instead of just calling it BS, at least do like Serrate and give some rationale to the decision, other than just saying you would never take a brute over a tank.

I respect Serrate due to the fact that instead of just trolling and making stupid comments, she(or he, was just basing on avatar) actually states an opinion and backs it up with some justification. I may not entirely agree, but I concede she makes some valid points.

I am basing my prediction on actual experience, both with this game (I remember a time when NO one wanted a stone tank, now everyone wants one), and with others, specifically with tanking classes.

Yep, I have been looking at builds for my brutes, and seriously, survivabilitywise, brutes are not very far behind tanks.

Close to, if not softcapped defense, solid resistance, and a ton of damage. These are builds requiring no purple sets and are not that expensive. I have a build for my SM/WP brute with 50% resistance, @83hp/sec regen and 35-40% defense, depending on how I tweak it. My DA tank, for the purposes of comparison, when I get the last couple of IOs i need will have just over 45% defense, and 69% resistance. My ElecA brute, with the IO build I have come up with, will have 42.3% def, and 58.3% resistance, the biggest issue with that set is the lack of a self heal, which appears will be alleviated with I16. With IOs, my Shield brute will have better survivability than my Ice tank IOed out would.

A couple buffs, they are equal to tanks.

These are not that expensive of builds. A little farming, and they are easily achievable. They don't use any purples whatsoever.

Is the game built with SOs in mind, yes. Is the accumulation of Influence now trivial, if you don't think so, you are delusional. Are IOed builds the norm currently, no.

When is GR going to be released? 6 months from now would be the absolute earliest I would give it. In 6 months, there will be more IOed toons. In a year, it will be almost mandatory. People are still catching up in this game as far as loot based min/maxing. The effort required to max out a toon in this game is incredibly small. I am not saying this is a bad thing.

I love my tanks. I love TO tank.

I am not calling for anyone to get nerfed, I am not saying Tanks are broken. What I am saying, is that Tanks need some sort of adjustment to make them more relevant, specifically in the future. All classes are to a degree interchangable, I am not saying that is bad either, but seriously, unless there is some other means to make a tanker desirable to teams other than taunt botting meatshield, they are going to become obsolete.

Those 2 statements hit the nail on the head. And the comment about WoW, yeah, they hardcapped rogues defense percentages because they were having problems with rogues tanking certain raid bosses.

A scrapper being able to completely control 2 level 54 AVs is absurd. I am not saying they can't do it, I am saying they shouldn't be able to, UNLESS they fix tanks in a fashion that makes them more team viable. Again, my reasoning for holding this opinion was the whole reason they used behind nerfing tanker damage back in issue 4 or 5. If scrappers are a damage AT they should be interchangable with blasters, not tanks. Blasters get the edge in damage as scrappers have the edge in durability. Scrappers do more damage than tanks by far, but seriously, the gap in durability is not that big. When you bring brutes into the equation, which do similar, and in some cases better damage as scrappers, with a bit better durability, scrappers complained. Now, the differentiation between scrappers and brutes is a bit easier to see, brutes need the durability, as in order to maximize their damage, they need to be fighting a larger number of targets. The scrapper has a much more reliable damage curve, supplemented by excellent burst damage from critical strikes.

Now, when I16 comes out, with the changes to Elec Armor, I will be able to make my Elec/Elec brute almost as durable as my DA tank, with a ton more damage. That is if the reported change to CP goes through as is. I have a feeling that Scrappers will be able to get similar results within their builds. Now, if that isn't enough evidence that Tanks need an upgrade of some kind, I don't know what is.

I am not arguing that Tanks are not top for pure survivability.

But let's face facts here, IO'ed out brutes and scrappers are not that uncommon. IOing a toon out is not hard, nor that expensive, especially with a little planning. By the time GR comes out, IO'ed scrappers and brutes will be the norm, not the exception.

I have been on teams already with scrappers that can more than hold their own against the average tank. I have been in groups where the group leader actually told the tank NOT to take lead and let the scrapper do it. Now, if I were the tank in said group, I would have told them were to stick it, and went on my merry way. This is a serious issue.

Is amending the aggro cap going to fix this, on it's own, of course not, but it would be a good first step.

The biggest problem with your premise is that no one on the team should have higher survivability than the tank. Period.
The DPE issue, they can fix without messing with gauntlet in such a complicated manner. The problem with multiple tankers isnt aggro control, its that there isnt much reason to have more than one in most situations, and it's getting to the point that often times even one tanker is unnecessary.

There is another thread on fixing gauntlet. These suggestions really wouldn't help the problems with tankers, except the end problem. maybe

Or maybe instead of just being a troll you could actually give some reasons why they won't.

Some reasons why the will become orphans, the big one being the ability to switch sides. Scrappers are already able to do the tanks job, now think about when brutes can come over to blue side. Better defenses than a scrapper, and hellacious damage to boot. Yeah, I don't see too many people looking to add an AT to their team for a job that can be handled almost as well by another AT that puts out VASTLY more damage.


I am not calling for nerfing another AT, I was just stating how I felt about the balance between the two ATs. Tankers should obviously outshine Scrappers and brutes defensively, Scrappers and Brutes should obviously outshine Tankers offensively. Well, Scrappers and brutes definitely outshine Tankers on offense, there is no disputing that. But as for Tankers outshining them on defense, the only way to really show that is through extreme situations that do not exist within the current content. Can a scrapper tank 10 AVs, obviously not, but there are vids out there of scrappers soloing multiple AVs at a time.

And did you ever stop to think about why Scrappers are one of the most popular ATs in the game.

Tankers need to be more solidly differentiated from Scrappers and Brutes in order for the AT to really shine again, and to be honest, IN MY OPINION, to thrive in the future.

One way they can do this is removing, or at least amending, the aggro cap for tankers.

Umm, they nerfed tanker damage way back @ish 4 or 5, kinda the same time they nerfed scrapper resistance and defense in general.

it wasnt about making one more important, it was about differentiating the two, obviously they didn't differentiate them enough.

When a scrapper is almost interchangable with a tanker, and with scrappers tanking high end task forces that is exactly the case, there is a problem, especially considering a tanker cannot output anything close to similar damage to a scrapper.

Removing the aggro cap would help in that differentiation. Bigger spawns, more aggro, and maintaining current aoe caps would all be good.

The way things stand now, when Going Rogue goes live, Tankers will become orphans, the reasons why should be obvious.