Zen_Concern

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Frankly, it is not unreasonable to expect to have a game that actually has proper documentation to how powers work and what they actually do. CoH hasn't provided that from day one if you take the time to think about it.

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It's not unreasonable at all, *unless* it is a stated element of the game that that information is not provided.

It would be very reasonable for Firaxis to provide the exact AI formulas for Civilization III, and many people would love to have that info. However, they've decided that withholding that information from the players provides a more immersive game.

Similarly with City of Heroes, Jack has explicitly stated that he would prefer to not release numbers whenever possible. Now, the very nature of the game allows players to figure out most of the numbers involved and they can't stop it. However, it doesn't mean they have to encourage it in any way.

They don't want City of Spreadsheets and while people can play that game all they want, I don't understand how anyone can not see where they can are coming from.

It's not like you're asking them to do something they may just have neglicted to do; you're asking them to do something that they have explicitly said that they *do not* want to do. You're asking them to fundamentally change the feel of the game.

Of course, anyone can ask that, but it doesn't seem like these posts have that understanding to them. It's like they're asking some small thing.

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Nope, you misunderstood me. It would be nice to have the numbers but I wasn't even going that far. Statesman has said that he wants players to be able to make informed decisions about powers without the numbers.

Let me ask you something, how long is a long recharge time? Is a long recharge time the same for every power or is every power different?

Do some powers have a moderate recharge time that is as long as another powers long recharge time?

Does extreme damage mean the same thing between sets or even between different builds?

Is there any consistancy to the descriptions of powers? No, there isn't.

It gets better though, how many powers had descriptions that were incorrect when the game was released? Hell, look at how many have incorrect descriptions now. I won't even get into powers that accept the wrong kind of enhancements, that is just buggy work.

In anycase, just looking at what is presented by this game and taking into account Jack's own Statement it is clear that they have not kept the player base informed.

Not keeping players informed about the powers seems to have been a goal from day one.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. PISTOL SCRAPPERS BEFORE ALL ELSE!

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It is very difficult to keep all of the proper data together in one place for easy reference. I suspect that Cryptic has someone collate all of the check-in comments from various powers-changing adjustments made to the game, and that is the official company line with regard to power changes.

Looking up the specific numbers on a power takes some work. Not a ton, maybe 5-10 minutes- less for whoever wrote the code initially.

It seems totally unreasonable to expect Cryptic to invest the time to look into every claim made on the boards or in-game about unnecessary power changes. To investigate a change requires even more work, because you also need to review past revisions of that power, and compare. In many cases, I suspect the numbers do not immedaitely suggest what, exactly, changed from a player's perspective.


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I think you are very much mistaken. If they really took that long to anylize the data they would never be able to make any changes much less actually work on two games. In any case Geko explained in the latest developer response what I already suspected. The information is very much, right at hand.

Geko:
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All of this is done in Excel. It’s pretty massive, but it’s also quite flexible and powerful since all values are interlinked. And since all these values are in Excel, the data can easily be analyzed. For instance, we can instantly see what the average damage a Tanker will take if we change one number. And we can compare this based on a number of variables such as Level, Enhancements, and Buffs.


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Frankly, it is not unreasonable to expect to have a game that actually has proper documentation to how powers work and what they actually do. CoH hasn't provided that from day one if you take the time to think about it.

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But claiming that Cryptic should do the work themselves is simply unreasonable from a development point of view.


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REALLY? So let me get this straight. The players tell the Developers what is wrong with their game and it is unreasonable for us to expect them to check it, confirm it and get back to us with proper notes.

It is also apparently unreasonable to expect the developers to document their own changes (which a good developer always does anyway at some level).

So, are you saying that we shouldn't bother with the giveing the developers feed back AND we shouldn't expect them to tell us anything?

Sorry, but that won't cut it in my book and expect a HELL of alot more from an MMO than what you suggest.

Take your plattitudes elsewhere, ESPECIALLY if you don't know jack about what happened or why.

It is some what funny but it looks like Archery is the worst set at setting off Oil Patch for defenders.

It is very funny to watch an AoE heal set it off though.

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30% -Res according to Erratic IIRC. -Dam should correspond to that, either directly or relatively.

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Here's something that is very very sad and disturbing. We have to rely on other Players for honest information about the game, because we can't trust the missives from the company itself.

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DING! Thats the main problem that I see as well. I can't trust anything that is written about the powers in this game. Not in game and not out of game by the Devs. Not any more. Not after REGEN and EF fiascos. I originally said that everyone makes a mistake once in awhile and that we should kinda let the regen fiasco slide and just focus on other things.

I expected that the developers would now be on gaurd and paying more attention to players when they say that something is messed up with their testing. The EF nerf taught me otherwise. Now, I am always going to be wary about every power in this game.

Hell, there are still bugs with TA that are not documented and it just came out.

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My AOE patience is recharging and it's duration isn't long.

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It is gems like this that keep me comeing back to the forums. An insult and informative at the same time. BRILLIANT!

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Hiya Babe,

Just wanted you to know that I've been an avid reader of your posts lately, mostly for morbid amusement, because, to some degree, I agree. That said, I'm getting the feeling that you're starting to lash out more than be constructive with your critism.

I think it's because you like, dare I say, love this game. You've slipped into mortal disappointment, like being lied to by your girlfriend/fiance/spouse. You don't really play the monthy-fees-dienfranchisement angle. This is my tip-off that I may be onto something here--you're passionate about this game.

Why am I say this? It's because I want the Devs, if they ever read this, to understand that severly-ticked-off people like the Captain here care and love what happens to their heroes and this game.

Hang in there, Captain Amazing. Maybe a hero *will* hear our pleas and swoop in to save US this time.

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Sure, I buy that. But throwing rancorous insults out? Why? And why would anyone care to read anything like this when it's full of idiotic insult and outright fabrication?

You'd have to pay me much more than 15/month to read this garbage.

Cal2

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Just remember that 15/month comes out to over a million dollars a month when you look at the number of subscribers. I think there is an incentive to read the honest views of your fan base, and to give them honest INFORMED feedback.

(Opens a bag of Pop Corn)

I could chime in but my grammer comments would probably send you into paroxyms of hissy fits. The spelling would leave you with permanent migraine headaches so I will spare you.

In any case, I look forward to this debate.

(Someone points out that they will be going into the debate over PMs so as not to de-rail the thread)

Oh, never mind.

(Stuffs Pop Corn in pants)

FRICKIN BUTTERED POPCORN GAHHHH! IT BURNS!

Well, I started posting on the defender boards again. Look at how calm blasters are now since I have been away for awhile.

Thank you for finally saying it.

Have to test about the other powers though. While it was on test I5 wasn't effecting the other powers according to tests.

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Gang,

Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...

And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!

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I can always count on Statesman to find an excuse for me not to take a power. I was worried that I may have to fit Permfrost into my build, well not anymore. Thanks Statesman.

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Most people who play Ice/ or /Ice tankers seem to reroll them after they get the idea that the primary or secondary is subpar. Taking both is like kneecapping yourself.


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(looks down at knees)

You are really starting to worry me.

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Elsewhere on the forums, someone suggested a QoL feature consisting of a little bar graph for each power, showing the relative effectiveness of each before and after slotting. There'd also be indicators to show if you've reached or exceeded a cap.

"Whoa, I won't be slotting Wet Ice for DEF. I didn't realize how little it gave me. I'd better use these for Icicles since it shows that power eats up endurance like crazy."

"Switching to SOs meant I exceeded the DEF cap. I'll move some of these +DEF enhancements out of my toggles and put in endurance reducers."

"My Fly speed doesn't need to be 5-slotted, I've already hit the speed limit! I'll use that slot elsewhere."

Of course, you'd need to be able to undo whatever you've just done once you found out that you slotted poorly. This means some sort of mechanic in place that doesn't involve you leveling on the Test Center first each time.

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It'd be even better if, by merit of each power's construction, there were no "wrong" ways to slot things. Too much ACC in your attacks? Use the surplus as +PERCEPTION or a(n increased) chance to critical. Fly movement maxes with about 4 speed SOs? Slow Flight down to where 6 SOs hits the cap, or raise the cap to let 6 mean something.

Man, it's like we have to think of everything around here.

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All they have to do is copy the respec function for finalizing enhancements. Basically you can slot your enhancement and then have to press a seperate button to finalize it similar to when you are assigning slots to powers.

That would be ugly in Tank VS. Tank fights in the arena. I can hear the whining now, especially considering the negative recharge effect.

That is something that could be exploitable, I am not sure but it could be. Something to think about in any case.

They are. However making Ice less of a "Hit/No Hit" set is a good thing and should be encouraged.

I find the idea of a damage debuff novel and more endearing to being a team tank.

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I want to make sure that you guys know that Ice-based powers work on the fires as well. That is why you are able to target the fires with any power.

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Too bad Icecles are not an Ice based power. Who would have thought?

Just, wow.

I have backed up Statesman's decisions in this issue because I agree with what the end result should be but damn.

There comes a point when you have to wonder if they are letting monkeys make the decisions.

Please tell you me you sent this to him and Positron in a PM.

He is checking his PMs so I don't know if he will read it here first or if he will read it in a PM first. Regardless, they should know what we are seeing. Maybe they see something different but they should at least know what we are seeing.

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Just so the percentage decreases are represented properly (because people aren't throwing around the actual numbers)...

Old EA: 18.75% * 5 = 93.75%
New EA: 0.5% * 14 = 7%
% Remaining: 7 / 93.75 = 7.47%
% Loss: 92.53%
gained Endurance Recovery

Old WI vs E/N: 12.5%
Old WI vs S/L/C/F: 9%
New WI vs all: 0.5%
% Remaining (E/N): 4%
% Remaining (S/L/F/C): 5.55%
% Loss (E/N): 96%
% Loss (S/L/F/C): 94.45%
gained 5 slots for other powers

Avg Loss: (92.53 + 96 + 94.45) / 3 = 94.33%
(note: doesn't take into account 40% loss on FA/GA)

(edit: added what's below)

Now figuring it in per damage type, and FA and GA...

Issue 4:
S/L: 25 + 9 + 93.75 = 127.75%
E/N: 25 + 12.5 + 93.75 = 131.25%
F/C: 9 + 93.75 = 102.75%

Issue 5:
S/L: 15 + 0.5 + 7 = 22.5%
E/N: 15 + 0.5 + 7 = 22.5%
F/C: 0.5 + 7 = 7.5%

% Remaining / % Lost (both as % vs original):
S/L: 17.6% / 82.4%
E/N: 17.1% / 82.9%
F/C: 7.3% / 92.7%


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/tear

So how do Ice Tanks compare to other tanks or scrappers for that matter?

What really pisses me off is that they reduced the base ability of this power. Basically we get the power and then have to wait several levels before it actually becomes something usefull. Genius design there.

From an RP standpoint I could see you making the arguement that when a player first picks up a power he does not know how to use it or does not have the tech tuned properly to get the full effect out of it. I can see that arguement.

Let me just say that if a power doesn't provide a noticeable ability to your character it just isn't a superpower. Nerfing the top end of powers is great, nerfing the base of powers makes you feel less Super. People hate feeling less Super. Second, if a power requires heavy slotting for it to be effective how will the player who doesn't read the boards know that?

Really if they activate EA and all they see is an endurance buff how will they know that they can six slot it for defense and get a reasonable defense buff out of it?

PS. I started out referring to Ninja but ended up referring to states in the end.

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Isn't it kind of pointless to allow players to slot enhancements that make no measurable difference?

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Its a serious problem. We're told, by Statesman, that decisions in game should be informed decisions. Yet Wet Ice is now the mis-informed power by definition. It takes both RES and DEF enhancements (even in I5). And yet RES will only increase Cold RES which is unnecessary for an Ice Tank, and DEF is so marginalized on Wet Ice, its unfair to allow players to do this.

Yet a player who's not on the forums, is uninformed of all this. So they will try to slot the power in an effort to get it to function, but little do they know its not.

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I have been ragging on the poor power descriptions in this game for awhile and if they don't change the description to say "SLOTTING THIS WITH DEFENSE IS STUPID BUT GO AHEAD IF YOU WANT" I am going to be rather disappointed.

Actually, if they don't start actually allowing players to see what the numbers are, I am going to be disappointed. Let it be on a seperate screen that you have to click on to see if you want to protect people that don't want to see the numbers and just like to create characters with vague descriptions that don't mean a single thing and are completely subjective. Let those of us who care about our characters and want to build a concept character actually have the numbers so we know if a power fits our concept. Ignorance, in the face of questions, leads to unhappiness.

May God watch over your brother.

Personally, I do want to know your honest feelings about something.

Heh, you should see an Ice Tank against a blaster. Man is that a quick fight. Nice vid by the way. I really need to get fraps instead of useing the demo record feature.

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(Like anyone has fly for ice tanks but just thinking loggically).


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I have fly!

It just so happens that my Ice Tank is the spirit of a Pirate whose bones are at the bottom of the Arctic Sea. The spirit channels the cold around the bones to his spirit form to affect those around him and to protect his spirit from attack. He's a cursed spirit so he can be hurt just like a person but he gets super powers because he is here to do good and what not to make up for the blood on his hands. As he does good deeds (gets close to 50) his gloves will slowly lose the Dark red blood stains on his gloves and boots until they look like normal leather again (currently has a dark red blend on a brown leather folded gloves). So, thinking logically, he has fly. Who heard of a spirit walking around?

His name is Frozen Penance.