Aett_Thorn
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Ahhh...yup, missed that line. Thanks for the catch.Originally Posted by Nihilii
Yep, it was. This is what BillZ refers to when he says -
Quote:I agree with you for the most part. The problem is, where do you look at the balance of a set? Do you look at high-recharge cases, or do you use more "standard" recharge areas (such as a single recharge SO only, maybe with Hasten)? Also, remember that this is all just theoretical damage, too. If the EM hits total focus, and the team takes the target down before the hit lands, that is wasted damage that you can't account for. I'd love to see actual in-game numbers for the sets, but I don't think I'll ever get that.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
There as several factors to take into account. ET, on it's own, has the highest DPA of any tanker attack. That means that spamming ET and nothing else would give you the highest possible tanker DPS. But there is the sizable (20 second base) recharge to overcome. In comparison, all Fire Melee attacks have higher DPA than equivalent EM attacks (not including ET). Thus, the more recharge you have, the more EM beats FM. With my IO/Incarnate levels of +recharge, I can hugely outshine FM. But even with SO recharge levels (and Hasten) I estimate that EM is slightly ahead of FM*. Of course, your secondary will have an affect here. If it has in-built +recharge (SR, Elec, EA) it will do better with EM. If it has -Recharge (Stone) it will do better with FM.
* ST damage only, of course. EM is clearly bottom of the pile for AoE.
Stone is an interesting case, because the limiting factor here is endurance.
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Okay, so it looks like EM is doing good in terms of single-target damage, at least while solo. However, I think that its on teams that the long-animation times are a problem with potential corpse-blasting and such. So IF that is a problem with the set, I think that your idea might work, though I think I'd prefer less of a gimmick to the set.
But could the game, if ET or TF were determined to hit a dead enemy, turn the power into an AoE? Could it do a second check when the power would normally do damage, and if the target isn't alive anymore, the power becomes a weaker AoE? So if the target is still alive, you deal full damage to them, but if they're dead, your energy radiates out to those near him instead? -
Okay, for Melee attack sets, I found a slightly old comparison thread that analyzes the various sets' best attack chain for sustained DPS. Thread can be found here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=132894
It does look like /EM is up there for ST damage, though I am looking through the thread and finding other sets that get moved up past it with various slotting changes (such as Stone Melee). This thread also is a bit old, so doesn't take into account more recent changes to the game, such as the Fury changes. It also might not take into account Arcanatime, which may affect various sets differently. So take it with a grain of salt.
I'm reading through it just to make sure something doesn't completely change the list, but it's a good place to start. -
Quote:I am fine with all of those caveats. I know that secondary choice will definitely affect things, as will any pool power choices or IOs, but I just needed a place to start. Thanks!Originally Posted by Microcosm
It's called The Results Are In, but it only covers SO performance and is not necessarily valid anymore because of game changes. I don't think it takes into account primary and secondary combos, which is a significant part of the equation.
Though I guess I have to ask: was Arcanatime known back in 2009? I feel like that was discovered a bit more recently. -
That was exactly what I was looking for, thanks!
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The stealth IOs do NOT affect Threat level. A power has to be specifically flagged to do that, and those IOs do not grant that flag.
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Degenerative isn't one of those "goes well with this set or that set," but more of a "what are you intending to do with it" type of power. Basically, if you and your powersets are often going against very tough targets, such as AVs, it can be good. Going up against swarms of minions, it's less useful (although bonus damage always helps).
With that in mind, I'd say that sets with more of a single-target focus would go better with it, since they'd be more likely to be have settings where they're fighting one-two hard targets than a lot of minions. -
Hey all,
I am coming to the number-cruncher specialists in the Scrapper forum to ask a question. I know that there's the thread on the Rikti Pylon times, but I looked through there and didn't find exactly what I was looking for. I know that a while ago there were comparisons done to calculate the DPS of all of the melee damage sets. Does anyone know where that thread has gotten to, or if it even still exists?
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Quote:I know that it's old, but any chance I could pick your brain about how the ST DPS was calculated? What factors did you take into account? I'm assuming you gave the powers some recharge, but anything else?Originally Posted by Starsman
Here it is:
At least among tankers, it has the worst AoE DPS.
BTW, that study took a lot of things into consideration. I made a special balancing formula that artificially penalized powers with short radius with a lower "realistic" target cap, precisely to be able to quantify the advantage of powers that may do the same damage and have the same recharge but have larger radius.
This was last updated June 15, 2010
I'm surprised that EM is up there with Fire Melee, given Fire Melee's lack of secondary effect besides more damage. -
In short: vehicles require a lot of "what ifs" that current travel powers don't need to take into account. For instance, with current travel powers, to activate a power, you just stop and do it (flight actually requires a different animation for powers activated while flying, though). But how would you activate many powers from on a motorcycle, or in a car? It would require 3 new animations for EVERY power in the game that could be used on it. That is an astronomical amount of work for this. And means another 3 animations for each power for each vehicle, or for each new power that gets created, slowing down new powerset releases.
Then you also have strafing issues, over-water issues, in-mission issues, up-hill/down-hill issues, etc. -
Okay, I know that there was a list at some point, but I can't find it. There was a thread a while ago that sought to put the sets in order from highest to lowest based on ST-DPS and AoE DPS potential. Does anyone know where that got to? Would love to see where EM placed on that.
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I'm so "confused" right now. Somebody hold my place until I figure it out.
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Quote:Yup, sorry, got confused to what we ware talking about. Nothing to see here.Originally Posted by Starsman
This. Although every AT can have it's own pseudo-pet to have their own self-damage scale.
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Quote:If the pet is the thing doing the damage, then it gets crippled by the pet damage rules (caps and such). Doubt you'll get much support for that.Originally Posted by Starsman
The pet may be the one inflicting damage if it had to.
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Quote:ONE person said that they only liked fast attacks in this thread. Other people might just not like slow attacks. I think that the relative lack of /EM being played in the game points to the fact that there are MANY people who don't like the slow attacks.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
They have been listened to. They have said they stopped playing because they only like fast attacks. Which would be a valid point if EVERYONE only like fast attacks.
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Quote:LOL. So if new players aren't choosing a set because it underperforms, that's okay, because there's a better set out there? Why not make the underperforming set just as desirable as the others?Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
As I've said before:
1) SS is clearly overpowered, and is therefore invalid for baseline comparisons.
2) It doesn't matter if new players don't choose Energy Melee. Kinetic Melee is a semi-replacement.
What about comparing /EM to other melee sets, where it still underperforms against them? -
Quote:Yes, heaven forbid the Devs take into account the people who have stopped playing the set for legitimate reasons when making a change. I get that your opinion is that the set is fine. But again, that is just your opinion. People who stopped playing because of the nerf should also be listened to, because they may have valid points as to why they stopped playing, not just that they were no longer overpowered.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I've nothing against any of these. But I'm afraid that if it gets "looked at" the people who want the animation or self damage of ET reduced, and hence its burst damage, will be listened too. I would rather the set not be buffed at all than risk changes to may favourite power.
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Just did a bit of math on this. Using Barrage, Energy Punch, and Bone Smasher takes 3.66 seconds (not exactly a whiz on Arcanatime, so this is without factoring that in). Total Focus takes 3.33 seconds. So the three powers take up 0.33 seconds more animation time. That is 9% more animation time.
Meanwhile, on a Brute with no enhancements or Fury, Total Focus does 148.5 damage, and the three powers together do 165.16 damage. That is 11% higher damage.
Now, Arcanatime might change that a bit, but for Brutes at least, the difference should be made up for by Fury affecting the later attacks in the chain. So basically, it's better to use the three attacks (especially factoring in corpse-bombing on teams) than Total Focus, especially if you can chain them. -
Quote:Energy Melee has middle-of the road single-target, and poor AoE. And the ST-damage standing is assuming that the target is still alive when you hit it, which may not be the case in team play. It may not be the worst set in the game right now, but it's not good at anything, either. In my opinion, it's one of the three melee damage sets that at least needs to be looked at. The other two being /Axe and /Ice Melee.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Exactly.
I've nothing against buffing underpeforming sets, of which we have plenty. I'm against touching sets which AREN'T underperforming, just because they don't match the preferences of certain individuals.
The numbers back up that EM needs some help to put it on par with the other melee sets. Not a lot, but a bit. And just because the set works for you doesn't mean that the set isn't underperforming. Old Ice Melee worked for me, but it was quite the weak set. -
So Praf, you were okay with the nerf to EM, because it worked out well for YOU. But yet, when other people point out that it didn't work for them, they're somehow wrong, or wanted to be overpowered?
Sets have changed in the past, both for good and bad, so sets aren't always the same as when you chose them. EM got nerfed pretty well, and those who liked the set before got told that they had to get used to changes. If the set is looked at, and is found to be needing buffs, people who like the set as is may need to get used to the changes as well. Current performance is no indication of future performance of a set when MMOs are concerned. -
Quote:Speaking of /Ice melee, I'd like to point out that it's a great experiment in finding somebody that will complain about any change. Despite three years of data gathering, complaining on the forums about needed changes, and many in-game experiments showing how bad the set was, we still didn't find anyone who thought the set was good as-was. That is, until the changes were made to the set.Originally Posted by Rylas
In case you haven't picked up on this yet, I played the set for fun. I shelved my toon when the nerfs came around not because of damage, but because of animation times that felt way too long. For goodness' sake, I made a Dark/Ice tank once just for the fun of ridiculous crowd control (not that I expected you to know that). So, if you think I'm rooting for a broken set, don't worry.
Only after the changes were made (adding some range to Frost, damage to Frozen Aura) did someone pop up saying that they used the sleep effect to do a bit of farming in the Shadow Shard. But they only used it in certain circumstances, admitted that it only worked for certain Tanker primaries, and that they didn't use it in normal gameplay. Despite all that, they were ticked that the power got changed to add damage, because it ruined their very specific farming situation that they had developed just for it. The set was HORRIBLE, is only barely passable now with the changes, but people still argued against the changes.
You can't please everyone. You shouldn't try. If a set needs fixing, better to go with the easiest way to do it, rather than make some sort of convoluted new mechanic for the set that people might not like either. Not many people are too thrilled with the mechanic added to Gravity Control, and having that mechanic makes it harder to make better changes to the set. -
Stars,
While some people might be upset with an animation change, just as many might be upset with the set getting some sort of gimmick. There might be as big (or bigger) of a silent majority that hate gimmicks. We just can't use that as a reason NOT to do anything, because then a set would never get fixed. Does Trick Arrow need a gimmick to make it better? No, it just needs better values or the ability to use less powers to get the same effect. Similarly, Energy Melee might be fine with just some animation changes or power tweaks, with no need for a gimmick.
Yes, some people like gimmicky sets. Others, like myself, don't, and prefer a set that functions well without them. Having a combination of gimmicky and non-gimmicky sets is a good thing. "Fixing" sets by adding gimmicks isn't always the best course of action, and one I'm not in favor of for Energy Melee. I'd much prefer animation changes to fix the feel of the set, despite what might come with that.
But like Rylas said, you're going to find people who are upset about ANY change to a set, even if it makes the set much better. Using that to argue against any specific change, while not applying it to the change your suggesting is fairly silly, since we have no idea how many of each there might be. -
Are you talking about the set bonuses, or just from slotting IOs into the power itself? Some clarification as to what you're asking would be nice.
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Quote:And that's the point. You're not supposed to be able to do absolutely everything with a build. But you can get pretty darned close.Originally Posted by _Hush_
That bad. I just feel sometimes I have to sacrifice a lot to get that def cap, but lose that acc or vise versa.