For -Endurance to be effective, it really needs to be paired with -recovery as well. That's what allows you to keep the enemies from attacking once you get them down to zero. Otherwise, as soon as the enemy gets a single tic of endurance back, they can usually use their version of brawl, at the very least.
So to build a good sapper character, you tend to need to use something with -recovery as well.
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Amen yes sir, but for instance even on my Kin/Electric Defender with -recovery powers, they still get that "1" endurance and are back at it much quicker than when knockdown or back, held etc.... |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
For -Endurance to be effective, it really needs to be paired with -recovery as well. That's what allows you to keep the enemies from attacking once you get them down to zero. Otherwise, as soon as the enemy gets a single tic of endurance back, they can usually use their version of brawl, at the very least.
So to build a good sapper character, you tend to need to use something with -recovery as well. |
IDK, it just seems to me like they need to make it so that it is more effective, because right now it just seems to be the worst mitigation in the game.
Maybe I am just looking through the wrong lens.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
NPCs cheat, when it comes to end draining. Even more so with high lvl ones that have around 800! end.
I think part of the problem is that very very few baddies actually HAVE toggles, or even a full (say 4 st attacks + an aoe) attack chain. This means that end drain, for them, is not as bad as say..for US..when your toggles drop, and you are left unable to use that toggle debuff or aoe hold etc. Then when they do get drained, there attacks cycle so fast, assuming they arent rech debuffed, and cost so little end..that they can use them anyway.
That said...
My fire/kin corr CAN drain a GM dry..but again..it really does nothing to stop them attacking, or even help kill them faster (no toggles to suddenly drop when they hit zero end).
My elec/energy dom can drain whole mobs faster, and with the -recovery, not just drain, this does help cut down a lot of incoming damage..and you need it, it really annoys mobs.
But mostly..mobs still cheat.
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Thank you thank you thank you. I was reluctant to put that in there at first because I didn't want certain people to jump all over it, misunderstanding what I was saying. But yes, it is pretty obvious they have cheaty AI or whatever.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
NPCs cheat, when it comes to end draining. Even more so with high lvl ones that have around 800! end.
But mostly..mobs still cheat. |
That is the part I felt could be adjusted in some way to allow endurance drain to "really" count. It really defeats the purpose of "being able" to drain if draining is just not effective for any real length of time.
IDK, I guess I just needed to vent about the devs giving the enemy cheaty AI when it comes to end drain and fighting back.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I can't think of a single set using endurance drain as a primary mitigation mean. Compared to other secondary effects, i.e. recharge debuffs and such, it seems OK to me. There might be some room for improvement, but keeping the enemy from attacking entirely would be equivalent to an AoE hold... Even strong tohit debuffs don't quite get you to that level of mitigation.
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I don't think the problem is that the enemies have cheaty AI in terms of end drain, it's that the Devs still think end drain is a valuable mitigation tool all by itself. Because it's really not. If a set has a single end drain power in it (say, Ice Armor), with a bunch of other tools for mitigation, then it's fine that it doesn't have a lot of -recovery, or any at all.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Thank you thank you thank you. I was reluctant to put that in there at first because I didn't want certain people to jump all over it, misunderstanding what I was saying. But yes, it is pretty obvious they have cheaty AI or whatever.
That is the part I felt could be adjusted in some way to allow endurance drain to "really" count. It really defeats the purpose of "being able" to drain if draining is just not effective for any real length of time. IDK, I guess I just needed to vent about the devs giving the enemy cheaty AI when it comes to end drain and fighting back. |
It's when you get sets like Elec Blast, where you have end drain being the main mitigation component of it that you need to pair it with -recovery (and Elec Blast has this). Elec Control has a bunch of -End, but almost no -recovery, so it has this problem, too, but it's tougher to see with all of the other controls.
The other problem with a set like Elect Blast, though, is that for a majority of targets, you're likely to kill it before you drain it of endurance. If the enemy is dead, why do I care what it's endurance was before it died? But, on the other side, if you haven't drained an enemy completely, then you're getting no mitigation from your attacks yet. So there's no immediate mitigation return on investment, and you don't get it until you've applied several-many attacks. And that just doesn't happen as much with other mitigation measures, where you can usually mitigate damage with one or two attacks (except against AVs and the like).
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Understood. Do you think that there is a low damage issue with electric for ranged/support sets? |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I can't think of a single set using endurance drain as a primary mitigation mean. Compared to other secondary effects, i.e. recharge debuffs and such, it seems OK to me. There might be some room for improvement, but keeping the enemy from attacking entirely would be equivalent to an AoE hold... Even strong tohit debuffs don't quite get you to that level of mitigation.
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IDK, being able to ignore your mitigation at "1" endurance just does not seem right to me but like I said I guess I am just venting and everyone else is happy with electric.
No worries not every set is for everyone, I have plenty of toons that are not as frustrating as electric is for "me", so I just need to focus in on those and be happy.
Thanks for the responses guys.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I see your points and understand. I think my frustration with Electric is "my" vision of what it should be which is admittedly "my" issue and not the games/devs. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I don't think the problem is that the enemies have cheaty AI in terms of end drain, it's that the Devs still think end drain is a valuable mitigation tool all by itself. Because it's really not. If a set has a single end drain power in it (say, Ice Armor), with a bunch of other tools for mitigation, then it's fine that it doesn't have a lot of -recovery, or any at all.
It's when you get sets like Elec Blast, where you have end drain being the main mitigation component of it that you need to pair it with -recovery (and Elec Blast has this). Elec Control has a bunch of -End, but almost no -recovery, so it has this problem, too, but it's tougher to see with all of the other controls. The other problem with a set like Elect Blast, though, is that for a majority of targets, you're likely to kill it before you drain it of endurance. If the enemy is dead, why do I care what it's endurance was before it died? But, on the other side, if you haven't drained an enemy completely, then you're getting no mitigation from your attacks yet. So there's no immediate mitigation return on investment, and you don't get it until you've applied several-many attacks. And that just doesn't happen as much with other mitigation measures, where you can usually mitigate damage with one or two attacks (except against AVs and the like). |
I appreciate the responses as they have me considering things I had not which is good especially when set forth as you have.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
It's completely broken, no point building for it at all but someone should post a vid to clarify.
Edit: See sig.
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Broken, but could be fixed/improved?
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
It's completely broken, no point building for it at all but someone should post a vid to clarify.
|
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
Nope - can't really accept a blanket conclusion like that in this case.|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
It's completely broken, no point building for it at all but someone should post a vid to clarify.
|
Admittedly it's clear that the overall "mitigation advantage" of -END can be harder to benefit from on a case by case basis. Because of its highly binary nature (in that you have to drain a target down to "zero END" to see significant mitigation) there are oftentimes only a few fleeting moments during the course of combat where you've managed to drain a target of all END -before- you've killed it outright.
In my experience with a Ele/Ele Blaster I've come to accept that the -END mitigation specifically helps in situations where I'm soloing boss-level (or higher) critters. Basically minions and lieutenants die long before -END does anything noticeable to them and in most teaming situations the team tends to collectively kill things before the -END plays a useful role.
It's hard for me to agree that the -END mitigation tactic is universally "broken", but it is definitely a highly situational tactic that only really shines in relatively limited situations. Not only is it situational, but it usually takes a fully dedicated build to make it as fully workable as possible. You can't just have one or two sources of -END and hope to see it make a major difference. You have to design your build with as many -END and -Recovery options as possible. It's an "all or nothing" thing.
You have to be willing to accept the various disadvantages of -END and frankly many people either end up not liking the playstyle or don't want to do what it takes to make it work. On the other hand it is cool when it does work, and as a "soft MEZ" it's probably one of the best control mechanisms in the game as long as you keep a given critter's END floored.
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Appreciate the perspective given there Lothic. I definitely had a different one coming into this thread as really appreciate not only the answers given but the presentation therein.
As you have explained it very well, it is very clear that I need to give some more consideration into the areas you talked about, because I was obviously not looking at the entire picture.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Thanks - I had hoped to convey both the good and bad about it.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Appreciate the perspective given there Lothic. I definitely had a different one coming into this thread as really appreciate not only the answers given but the presentation therein.
As you have explained it very well, it is very clear that I need to give some more consideration into the areas you talked about, because I was obviously not looking at the entire picture. |
It's definitely one of the most specialized playstyle mechanics in the game. It's not meant to be a "scrapper-lock max-DPS button masher" that'll let you simplemindedly kill everything without thinking. More than most other styles it really requires character builds which are completely dedicated towards making it work. You almost have to play a -END character more like you would a Controller/Dominator with a unique kind of MEZ ability.
I suppose one could argue that its hyper-situational nature is a major disadvantage. I'd be the first to tell you that characters specialized in -END are probably never going to be great farmers or top DPS producers. But if you want something unique that plays differently than most other AT/powersets then it's certainly a viable option. You basically don't need to have massive DEF, RES or even DPS output when that big, nasty AV you're attacking has had his END floored and is just standing there waiting for you to finish him off.
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Yeah, I think you are right about it and I do see it as more of a style type deal. Been saying this about other AT's for years, yet failed to see where it applied to me here until you so eloquently broken it down and I released my frustration. 
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Ok fair enough. It would be nice if transference had an extra benefit for the team.
Edit: See sig.
The best sapper type character i had made was a elect/energy blaster with super speed. 1) run into the mob with super speed hitting POWER BOOST
2) fire off SHORT CIRCUIT
3) then throw out BALL LIGHTNING for your -end -recovery
4) open up a 6-pack of whoop-*ss
I was consistantly running ahead of tanks into mobs and sapping them before the team showed up.
I do have a elect/elect dom but as others have said in this thread, you tend to rely other controls in addition to sapping.
Hope that helps
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The only Electrical Blast attacks that always apply -Recovery are Short Circuit, Tesla Cage, and Thunderous Blast. Ball Lightning only has a 30% chance of interrupting End Recovery on each target it hits.
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Originally Posted by American_Knight
The best sapper type character i had made was a elect/energy blaster with super speed. 1) run into the mob with super speed hitting POWER BOOST
2) fire off SHORT CIRCUIT 3) then throw out BALL LIGHTNING for your -end -recovery |
1. Critters don't cheat when it comes to using endurance. They use endurance exactly the same way we do, and are impaired when out of endurance in exactly the same way we are. Its true they have less toggles and less attacks, but that's not saying they cheat. Unless you want the devs to add more defensive toggles and attacks to critters.
2. Drain is more problematic for damage mitigation than other secondary effects, but its not completely broken. There are lots of mechanical ways to address its issues in ways that wouldn't make it identical to other mezzes or soft controls, but would make it more effective in general. Doing so mostly requires looking at endurance modifying effects holistically, and using the entire arsenal at our disposal: literal drain (removing points of endurance from the target), recovery debuff (slowing the recovery of endurance), discount manipulation (increasing the amount of endurance the target uses), and maxendurance debuff (reducing the maximum endurance the target has, and with it the size of recovery ticks).
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What? Are you being sarcastic there or something? Because..a full bar of end every 15 odd seconds..for teh entire team. And you want it to do more?? I can see you asking for it to have a -recovery added to it..but doing more for teh team? No other power in game can get a blaster back to full after a nuke, a melee back to full after a t9 crash, anyone elec back to full after being sapped.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
Ok fair enough. It would be nice if transference had an extra benefit for the team.
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Exactly, it's situational.
Edit: See sig.
Umm..it is? Cause pretty much every power in teh game..is and can be situational. So that is a great argument. Transference is an awesome power.
Or do you mean that 'end drain' is situational?
It would be nice if it had a debuff effect like a normal drain power.
It would be nice. Not essential, but nice. Message ends.
Edit: See sig. Sigh.
Yes it would..but. are there any other drain powers that CAN fully drain a boss 100-0, in 1 second?
Short circuit I think can? But requires you to be next to teh target. Thunderous Blast..takes all your own end too (for now).
I do agree a -recovery would be great, especially versus hard targets, but it is still a flat out amazing power. Use it on a boss and you know they wont be able to use there Big attacks, at least right away. Use it to top up end. The power is as much about buffing the team, as debuffing a baddie.
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The debuff is -regen mate. I feel ya, heck I started the thread, but Lothic came up with some really good responses I think really need to be given some serious consideration.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
It would be nice if it had a debuff effect like a normal drain power.
It would be nice. Not essential, but nice. Message ends. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
It seems to me that while the sets that do end drain on the enemy are effective in doing so, they don't totally stop the enemy from using powers. It "seems" like they just need like "1" endurance and they are still able to use all of their powers.
This to me seems to hurt sets that rely on this mechanic, because it just does not seem to be effective mitigation for long enough time.
Any sappers have any suggestions on keep the enemy from attacking with essentially no endurance? Does the mitigation of endurance drain need to be adjusted?
I am interested in hearing others people's experiences with seat time in a sapper.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.