Here is the current (dev) ideas behind the two ATs:
Controller - control as Primary, support as secondary
Dom - Dual Primaries (basically)
Soloing, Mind Dom is probably better. I'd suggest either Psi or dark Assualt. drain Psyche is awesome - dark's abilities all have -To hit (which is nearly as good as +Def) plus it has Gather Shadows - a power boost clone.
Controllers get containment and crit holds, doms get domination.
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Despite sharing primaries, I do find the two are incredibly different. One is not better than the other, just different.
Controllers play very differently solo vs. teamed. They 'Naturally' gain very little attack power until far later in their careers, meaning you have to choose powers and slot enhancements with the express purpose of finding damage, unless you are satisfied with the limited forms you start with. Mind control controllers have okay single target damage, but direct damage on controllers is pretty low except on certain combinations. (Radiation and kinetics being old favorites for this) On teams this isn't such an issue, as you can let others do the damage and focus on controlling/buffing/debuffing.
Controllers have two innate abilities: 'overpower' which is a random double-powered control, and 'containment' which means they do double damage to things that are controlled. On the plus side, this means that just focusing on controlling, you can lock down tough targets with your first control, snd just doing your job stopping things from attacking will often be the same as attacking. On the downside controllers have no way to reliably lock down tougher foes, and do less damage vs. things that are harder to control.
Dominators play about the same, teamed vs. solo. Find the threat, lock it down. solo it's what wants to punch you in the face, teamed it's what wants to punch you in the face or punch your team mate in the face. Then you kill it with your attacks, or while it's locked down, kill the thing that is still punching you/your allies in the face. Dominators are more reliable, as their damage is the same in almost all situations, and they can double the power of their control with 'domination'. Domination also frees/protects them from control, and refills endurance so it's doubly good. The downside is that past control you have little else to directly offer the team, and while domination is down you'll never get a lucky control that locks down hard targets right away. (Except mesmerize, which can put bosses and stronger to sleep in one hit)
It should be noted that dominators probably get the most out of mind control, as all powers but levitate can be directly boosted by domination. Controllers get lots of overpower, but mind control has few powers to give direct containment damage bonuses as the powers it has to set it up can often be 'broken' by any bit of damage; as it lacks immobilization powers and instead uses sleep powers. (Which damage wakes people from.)
Seldom covers most of the issues, I'll just add a couple comments:
For Dominators: Don't be too set against taking melee attacks from your secondary. It's possible to build a range only attack chain, but many of the melee attacks are really strong. And a target that's being held/stunned/confused isn't going to be hitting you back, so melee isn't as dangerous for doms as it might first appear.
For Controllers: Though they can't control bosses as reliable as a dominator with domination running a secondary with strong debuffs (especially to-hit debuffs) can do a lot to cripple the tougher opponents (and will be more effective against EBs and AVs than controls.) I would strongly recommend that early on at least you take your single target immobilize (for most sets) and slot it for damage. This is less an issue for Mind Controllers who can get pretty decent single target damage from mesmerize (slotted for damage instead of control) and and levitate. Air superiority from the flight power pool is also a good choice for a young controller in need of damage.
As far as fluffy specifically I can understand wanting to avoid pets conceptually. Darkness affinity is still a strong set even if you decide to skip the pet. But even if you don't plan to use him a lot I'd still grab fluffy who can be really handy in tough fights.
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@Inquisitor
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You could re-color Fluffy and think of him as an Id monster if Dark looks fun or appropriate in most other ways.|
Originally Posted by dmurray
I would also like to avoid dark since it has a pet (unless Fluffy is actually good with MC). But even then, I'm really not comfortable with a pet since MC shouldn't really need a pet (at least conceptually, anyway).
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My only 2 50s are a Dominator and a Controller. I'm not sure why, to be honest. Okay that's not true. My Dominator is a beast solo and on teams. She can smash anything that gets in her way, but her controls are iffy out of Domination. Think of a Dominator more as a dps character with some strong controls built in as a bonus for survival and not as a damage-dealing Controller. It helped me, anyway. I have been playing with a Mind/Psi Dominator lately and she's an absolute ball, and again: more Blastery-feeling than Controllery-feeling. This isn't to say that Dominators can't do control well, because they can. It just feels less central to the concept. Or maybe it's just me.
My Controller is slow, sure and in control when she's solo. On teams, she's not unlike a Defender, making everyone else stronger and safer. Other people seem capable of building Controllers that do crazy damage. Different sets, I think, because I don't do a lot of damage at all so if my controls get resisted, miss, or are otherwise expired, I'm in trouble.
Take all that for what it's worth since one of each at 50 is all I have, and that means I haven't truly explored the scope of the ATs in question.
- Ashley
[Rocker Girl (Earth/Earth Dom); Sweet Venom (Plant/Time Ctrl)]
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I was kind of thinking of the Id monster too as a justification for fluffy. He certainly looks like he could be one.
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Originally Posted by AshleyHudson
You could re-color Fluffy and think of him as an Id monster if Dark looks fun or appropriate in most other ways.
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_________
@Inquisitor
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In groups, both AT's will lead with their primary and try to lay down as much control as possible to prevent the alpha strike (that is, when every single mob in the group fires off their first attack) from shredding the nominal tank. At this point, the two diverge. The dominator will begin his attacks and contribute to the dps of the team. The controller will begin to layer his support abilities to increase the teams damage and decrease the damage they take.|
Originally Posted by dmurray
I'm pretty new to the game still. I understand the majority of the terms and the likes. I just am slightly confused on how a dom or troller would play in solo and groups. (basically, are both classes expect to dish out damage and mez things in a group. Or do doms just mez mostly)
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Solo is similar. The only difference is that the troller will be throwing out more controls solo because those are his main source of damage, while the dom will only throw out enough control to keep the group from mauling him savagely. Doms are much more solo friendly though, if that's what you're worried about. Their damage secondary lets them clear content much faster, and often lets them burn down enemies that would cause trouble for a controller. Trollers benefit much more from having a group to do the damage while they keep their teammates alive and powered up.
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| I'm going with mind control and I have no idea about a secondary. On one hand, I heard trollers are great against AVs (which is wonderful) but I also heard that doms have an easier time locking them down. So I'm kinda confused. I like being able to solo. I know I'm new so I'm not expecting to be able to solo right off the bat. I'm fine with building up inf for slotting for solo, so long as I can be useful to a team without needing a few billion inf. |
Both are solid in both teams and solo with nothing more than Single Origin Enhancements, which you can buy starting at level 22 from vendors in game. Both do benefit heavily from pricey builds, but aren't required.
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The reason I like MC is that it plays perfectly for what I want. It's all about control and taking your time. But secondaries are a massive problem. I want to beneficial to the team and be able to solo (even if it costs a few billion inf to solo). On the troller side of things I'd rather stay away from the following: trick arrow and poison. I would also like to avoid dark since it has a pet (unless Fluffy is actually good with MC). But even then, I'm really not comfortable with a pet since MC shouldn't really need a pet (at least conceptually, anyway). |
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| For a dom I'm avoiding thorns and really any kind of melee damage. I don't mind things like psionic asasault but firery and icy assault bothers me. I don't want to feel like I'm just summoning swords in melee. The thing with psionic assault is that it blends well with MC and even though it's weak against some things, I still like how it handles the melee since it's most of a "I'm still using mind powers" against you. |
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| Anyhow, thanks for any help. |
Here's something useful for ya: A Mind/Kin guide i made a while ago. Still mostly relevant (though it was made before Speed Boost and Increase Density were made AoE). It might help you make up your mind, if you're not intimidated by a tl;dr-fest.
Basically, a Mind/Kin controller plays like this:
Mez foes, buff, attack attack attack!
A Mind/* Dom plays like this:
Mez foes, attack attack attack!
I'll note that before IOs and bonuses, Mind control feels sluggish and ineffective, particularly on a Controller. After I get my Mind/Time to 50, I'll never roll Mind/* again -leveling is that painful-. However, with enough recharge bonuses to get your AoE controls up every spawn, and a second AoE from your APP, Mind Control becomes dangerous.
There have been some discussions recently on other parts of the board where Mind's effectiveness has been brought up; basically, Mind comes in lowest of the pack of Controller primaries in terms of dealing damage and effectiveness, but any buffs would make it insanely overpowered. So take that how you will...
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
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Just wanted to chime in and say that while Mind may not be great on a controller, mostly due to lack of reliable containment and long-recharging AoE controls, it has massive appeal on a dominator, especially in a high-end IO build that has enough global recharge to achieve perma-dom (AKA, Domination recharges faster than it wears off, allowing it to stay up all the time). I have a Mind/Fire/Fire permadom, and it's by far the most absurdly powerful character I have ever experienced. Mass Confusion will destroy a x8 spawn by itself as long as you don't care about exp, and as long as you tag them all with a fireball or something, you'll still get drops. If exp is your goal, you can simply treat it as a second AoE hold that just does a lot more damage.
By alternating Mass Confusion and Total Domination to lock-down entire spawns, and then using Judgment to nuke a third into rubble, you can mow through missions with incredible speed in relative safety. Now, I also built for ranged defense, so I don't always bother leading with controls, preferring instead to just obliterate everything with my attacks while they plink away at me ineffectually. Even Archvillains and Giant Monsters are no match, as I can stack enough confuse magnitude to permanently disable them without ever even suppressing my stealth (it's funny confusing Ghost of Scrapyard, as his minions insta-die even before they get the chance to appear). Granted, I can't maintain enough DPS to actually kill them while maintain such a lockdown, but that is what your minions... I mean teammates are for, right? And confusing AVs is a great way to solo TFs, too (Mind/Fire doms have soloed master of Statesman/Recluse/Imperious in the past)!
So basically, Mind is fairly disappointing on a controller, and only so-so on a SO-only Dom, but it REALLY rewards heavy IO investment. And honestly, if you're making a dominator, your end goal is probably perma-dom anyways.
I'm pretty new to the game still. I understand the majority of the terms and the likes. I just am slightly confused on how a dom or troller would play in solo and groups. (basically, are both classes expect to dish out damage and mez things in a group. Or do doms just mez mostly)
I'm going with mind control and I have no idea about a secondary. On one hand, I heard trollers are great against AVs (which is wonderful) but I also heard that doms have an easier time locking them down. So I'm kinda confused. I like being able to solo. I know I'm new so I'm not expecting to be able to solo right off the bat. I'm fine with building up inf for slotting for solo, so long as I can be useful to a team without needing a few billion inf.
The reason I like MC is that it plays perfectly for what I want. It's all about control and taking your time. But secondaries are a massive problem. I want to beneficial to the team and be able to solo (even if it costs a few billion inf to solo).
On the troller side of things I'd rather stay away from the following: trick arrow and poison. I would also like to avoid dark since it has a pet (unless Fluffy is actually good with MC). But even then, I'm really not comfortable with a pet since MC shouldn't really need a pet (at least conceptually, anyway).
For a dom I'm avoiding thorns and really any kind of melee damage. I don't mind things like psionic asasault but firery and icy assault bothers me. I don't want to feel like I'm just summoning swords in melee. The thing with psionic assault is that it blends well with MC and even though it's weak against some things, I still like how it handles the melee since it's most of a "I'm still using mind powers" against you.
Anyhow, thanks for any help.