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I have no clue where you got this idea, but nothing could be further from the truth. There are few tanker sets (SR and possibly Stone come to mind) that are easier/cheaper to soft-cap, and I'd argue that SD has significant advantages over both. |
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
So, before I commit to this thing, I just want to know...
Is Shield any good? Because honestly it looks like it relies heavily on set bonuses just to function. It just seems to me like it's weak. I'm looking to take this character to Incarnate level and function as a main tank, is this a feasible goal without spending god-awful amounts of inf to squeeze every tiny drop of positional defense I can get out of set bonuses? |
You can get to 43% to defense all positions by taking and slotting the SD defense powers, CJ and Weave, and by slotting a single IO, the Steadfast +Def. After that you have some options; a full-set of Gaussian's in Build up is highly recommended, and will bring you to the soft-cap for all positions. Maneuvers is another option, though it wouldn't be my first choice since it's a high-endurance toggle and it's so easy to soft-cap without it.
Besides defense, SD has a great taunt aura (vastly superior to SR's) which is also a +Dmg (self) -Dmg (foe) power, decent S/L resists with Tough, (around 45%) a passive +HP power, and a fabulous PBAoE power in Shield Charge.
It has no heal and suffers the same weaknesses that all defense sets share, but all in all it's a terrific tanker option.
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| Is there a good reason why I should make a Tanker instead of just another Brute? Because I have two Brutes already, and every time I try to make a Tanker some voice in the back of my mind says "Why tank when you can tank AND damage?" It has always seemed to me like Tankers are inferior to Brutes, just because Brutes have nearly the same defensive ability with vastly superior damage. |
Only you can decide whether those advantages are worth giving up a brute's damage potential, and it's certainly true that in many situations you simply don't need the additional survivability that a tanker brings. However, to claim that SD tank is weak or requires a billion-influence build to be viable is remarkably ill-informed.
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To go with what fin said, to get to near where u can get on a tank u will be nerfing your damage out put too. Not to mention the same thing she implied ondef goes the same with res.
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Now, see, here's my personal issue. I consider this a weakness. I've never really tried to make a real tank character, and this is why: It always feels like tanking sets can't get the job done, forcing you to tap into pools. What if I don't like SJ as a travel power? What if I don't want to dedicate three power slots to Weave? I've always been of the opinion that power pools are optional. And who on God's green earth would six-slot Build Up?|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
You can get to 43% to defense all positions by taking and slotting the SD defense powers, CJ and Weave, and by slotting a single IO, the Steadfast +Def. After that you have some options; a full-set of Gaussian's in Build up is highly recommended, and will bring you to the soft-cap for all positions. Maneuvers is another option, though it wouldn't be my first choice since it's a high-endurance toggle and it's so easy to soft-cap without it.
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But here's where it starts to cross the line. Soft-capping is, in essence, min-maxing. But in order to be an effective tank, don't you need to be soft-capped? It just feels like there's no room for options or personal preference, you're stuck following a strict build just to do your job.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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It's still more forgiving as an SR or SD tank than other defense sets.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Now, see, here's my personal issue. I consider this a weakness. I've never really tried to make a real tank character, and this is why: It always feels like tanking sets can't get the job done, forcing you to tap into pools. What if I don't like SJ as a travel power? What if I don't want to dedicate three power slots to Weave? I've always been of the opinion that power pools are optional. And who on God's green earth would six-slot Build Up?
But here's where it starts to cross the line. Soft-capping is, in essence, min-maxing. But in order to be an effective tank, don't you need to be soft-capped? It just feels like there's no room for options or personal preference, you're stuck following a strict build just to do your job. |
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So...anything other than using SOs without power pools is 'min-maxing'? Do you apply this rather bizarre standard to other ATs, or are tanks the only ones that you feel must refrain from using the tools available to them to improve their performance?|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Now, see, here's my personal issue. I consider this a weakness. I've never really tried to make a real tank character, and this is why: It always feels like tanking sets can't get the job done, forcing you to tap into pools. What if I don't like SJ as a travel power? What if I don't want to dedicate three power slots to Weave? I've always been of the opinion that power pools are optional. And who on God's green earth would six-slot Build Up?
But here's where it starts to cross the line. Soft-capping is, in essence, min-maxing. But in order to be an effective tank, don't you need to be soft-capped? It just feels like there's no room for options or personal preference, you're stuck following a strict build just to do your job. |
Using SD powers alone and slotted with SOs, an SD tank will have around 28% defense to all positions. Could you tank with that? Sure, though not surprisingly your survivability won't be as high as someone who makes an effort to soft-cap. To put that in context an Ice Armor tank will have 26% defense to S/L/E/NE and capped Cold resists under the same circumstances, and people could and certainly did tank with Ice Armor on just SOs back before sets.
If you want a defense-based tank that is going to perform best with the least investment, SR is almost certainly the way to go, unless you're willing to put up with all the drawbacks of Stone Armor. SR gets over 40% defense on SOs alone with no pool powers, though as I mentioned before I think that SD is a more well-rounded set for many reasons. I also think you can get more performance out of SD with a relatively small investment if you're willing to include power pools--and most people are.
I'm still baffled by your comment about Brutes, though. If anything, it's in a "no pools, no sets" scenario that the difference between tankers and brutes are most dramatic. If you truly want to TANK (and that seems to be what you're asking for) a minimally slotted tank with its higher base defense, resists and HP will fare MUCH better than a similarly slotted Brute.
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Just to clear up why I think the way I do: First of all, I have always held the opinion that balance in CoH is very good. I feel that every set, if isolated, can do what it is meant to do. I feel that pools and IO sets are added to what should already be a fully-functional powerset.
I am also very new to the idea of a defensive set. I prefer resistance personally, and the creation of a defense-based character is sort of an experiment. I really haven't got much idea what I'm doing, and frankly my opinion on defense is fairly low. I've seen my friend's SR Brute get crushed like paper at crucial moments while running Elude. I'm wary, to say the least, but at the same time I've done virtually everything else in the game. I need something outside my experience to invest some time into, and a defense Tanker is where that train of thought points.
Finally, I try to find a good balance between concept and execution, but tend to hold concept higher. I want to be an effective tank, but I want it to be my tank. I don't want to get Weave because I just don't like Fighting. I'd rather have Hover/Fly/Afterburner because I just prefer it. You see where I'm going with this? I honestly could stand to slot a bunch of IO sets if I need to, but the point is I just can't do a cookie-cutter build because it is not my nature. And if a cookie cutter build is required for tanking, then...No.
At this point I'm rambling and the purpose of this thread is lost. I can see that Tankers get higher bases on their defense/resistance stats. That's good enough for me. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to attempt a non-Fighting, flying Tanker, figure out a way to soft-cap it, and tell the conventional methods to suck eggs. Cuz that's how I roll.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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Yes, and I believe that's the way it works in reality; you CAN tank with any tank armor without needing specific pool powers. But keep in mind that because of the nature of defense, adding defense close to the soft-cap provides substantially more survivability than say, adding it to a resist set with no defense of its own. That's why most playing defense sets opt for powers like Weave and CJ that provide additional defense; the 'bang for the buck' is enormous.|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Just to clear up why I think the way I do: First of all, I have always held the opinion that balance in CoH is very good. I feel that every set, if isolated, can do what it is meant to do. I feel that pools and IO sets are added to what should already be a fully-functional powerset.
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| I am also very new to the idea of a defensive set. I prefer resistance personally, and the creation of a defense-based character is sort of an experiment. I really haven't got much idea what I'm doing, and frankly my opinion on defense is fairly low. I've seen my friend's SR Brute get crushed like paper at crucial moments while running Elude. I'm wary, to say the least, but at the same time I've done virtually everything else in the game. I need something outside my experience to invest some time into, and a defense Tanker is where that train of thought points. |
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Finally, I try to find a good balance between concept and execution, but tend to hold concept higher. I want to be an effective tank, but I want it to be my tank. I don't want to get Weave because I just don't like Fighting. I'd rather have Hover/Fly/Afterburner because I just prefer it. You see where I'm going with this? I honestly could stand to slot a bunch of IO sets if I need to, but the point is I just can't do a cookie-cutter build because it is not my nature. And if a cookie cutter build is required for tanking, then...No. At this point I'm rambling and the purpose of this thread is lost. I can see that Tankers get higher bases on their defense/resistance stats. That's good enough for me. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to attempt a non-Fighting, flying Tanker, figure out a way to soft-cap it, and tell the conventional methods to suck eggs. Cuz that's how I roll. |
Are you set on Shields? Because as I mentioned SR would be a good option that's quite easy to soft-cap without Weave or CJ. But if you do decide on SD, be sure to take both Grant Cover and Phalanx Fighting. From the power descriptions you might think they're not very useful, but PF provides 5% (unenhanceable) def to all positions, and GC, though strictly a ally-only power in terms of defense, does provide 1/3 of the def debuff resistance in the set.
Good luck!
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Ok this is confusing me a bit. Why do u have to take SJ and who said u have too? I rarely see anyone 6 slotting Build up unless they are going for positional def. I have a tank that has CJ and fly but skipped SJ, and Hover since freedom launched u do not need to be level 14 anymore, nore do you need to have the first power to get your travel power. Like fin said my SR tank dose not have the fighting pool nore CJ and I am over the SC for them. I do have focuse chi 6 slotted to help with my def as well as other bonuses.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Now, see, here's my personal issue. I consider this a weakness. I've never really tried to make a real tank character, and this is why: It always feels like tanking sets can't get the job done, forcing you to tap into pools. What if I don't like SJ as a travel power? What if I don't want to dedicate three power slots to Weave? I've always been of the opinion that power pools are optional. And who on God's green earth would six-slot Build Up?
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If you're not willing to go the usual routes for softcap, then Stone Melee is one of the better sets to go with tbh. The combination of Fault and Seismic Smash for CC may as well double your survivability, they're really good. To get the most out of it though, taking Hover isn't going to do you well since Fault can't be used in the air (Last I saw anyhow) and that's just crippling the character. Remember, Combat Jumping can be taken without Super Jump and is a relatively non-evasive visual effect, plus the in-combat maneuverability can save lives.
As for why would you six-slot Build Up, well keep in mind that Shield Defense is along similar lines to Fiery Aura, it's a very aggressive and damaging armour set. By six slotting Build Up for Gaussian's, you're gaining the positional defense you need, having a fast recharging Build Up plus the chance for Build Up proc making some juicy damage numbers. Shield Charge will be your baby, Against All Odds will keep you warm at night and super-slotted Build Up is the icing on the cake.
Shield/Stone can be a beast of a character so long as you treat it right. You'll have great CC, a high Single Target attack chain plus one of the best AoEs in the game with Shield Charge on top of easily softcapped defenses, +hp, minor resistance and a scaling damage buff. If you're looking for a defense based Tanker, I might suggest going Shield/MA though, you can softcap with SOs from 22 if you take the bells and whistles from power pools so it'd be minimal work to softcap without Fighting thus leaving lots of room for customisation, you can even run Hover and look awesome doing it without neglecting your powers.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
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So, before I commit to this thing, I just want to know...
Is Shield any good? Because honestly it looks like it relies heavily on set bonuses just to function. It just seems to me like it's weak. I'm looking to take this character to Incarnate level and function as a main tank, is this a feasible goal without spending god-awful amounts of inf to squeeze every tiny drop of positional defense I can get out of set bonuses?
I'm fairly satisfied with Stone on paper, I'm sure I'll be satisfied with it in game.
Is there a good reason why I should make a Tanker instead of just another Brute? Because I have two Brutes already, and every time I try to make a Tanker some voice in the back of my mind says "Why tank when you can tank AND damage?" It has always seemed to me like Tankers are inferior to Brutes, just because Brutes have nearly the same defensive ability with vastly superior damage.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.