Demons/necro/thugs/bots to go with traps/dark/ff?

Okay, firstly, I'm very new to the game (as per my other topic) but I do understand the terms and basic mechanics so don't worry about throwing terms around and I know I gave a bunch of primary/secondary powersets but they're just all the ones I like most. I am really sorry for the long winded post, just pick whatever you can and answer it, thanks.

Basically I hate that a few guides make it so you'll be the one doing the tanking (with defense mode). That isn't what I really want to do when I'm fighting; I'd rather my minions get beat up and do the damage and me supporting.

I absolutely love the idea of necro/dark but from what I've gather bots/traps are really best at soloing things later on. I have no problem with this but I'd rather play a powerset that isn't relient on me having to tank the damage all the time. GMs/AVs are understandable since they're much rarer than standard bosses but like I said in the last paragraph, I don't want to be the tank; I want to be supportive and helpful.

Anyway a few questions about specific primaries:
Guides are saying the Bruiser is bad since his hand clap has KB; that's been changed on the wiki and it does KD. But his ranged move does KB; how badly would it be if I had something that relied mostly on AoEs (like traps, for example)
Speaking of traps with thugs, we only get one healing power. Is that enough? I get that thugs and arsionists will die a lot but call on a 60 second CD, do I just slot in some recharge enhancements to call thugs and that'll fix it?

With demons, I have zero understanding, it seems like it's a giant cluster of "here, have random abilities, a little bit of a different types of damage, buffs, debuffs, good luck". Or does all of that actually work well together? I mean at low levels they seem to be tougher than bots and even with the demonlings get into melee they don't see to be losing much DPS from what I can see.

With bots since they're all ranged and they have melee attacks, isn't this a bit awkward with mobs that run into melee? (or is this where the perma tanking MM works)
But dark looks like it'd work well (if not just for fluffy) since the demons do seem to get a massive amount of debuffs (or so it seems) so are demons/dark as good as bots/ff or bots/traps?

With necromancy normally the third teir minion is the big guns (so to speak) but the lich seems a bit... anti-climatic? He gets most of your abilities which is fun but I dunno if it'll be as exciting as finally getting my bruiser or assault bot or demon prince. Oh and would storm be decent enough that I could still hold my own while soloing or does Fluffy make dark worth it? Since most of the necro minions can heal themselves, I figured that the AoE heal from dark might make dark not needed as much and the cold theme would fit in well with the necromancy theme. Though I am also partial to poison with undead.

As for secondaries, I don't really have questions. I just want something that can take down stuff solo and actually fits a theme. Hellspawned demons with me using traps doesn't really fit; neither do thugs and me summoning Fluffy.

I know I'm probably asking for a miracle with what I want but I have no problem with how long it takes to learn (so long as it's reliant on actual skill/abilities and not luck)

Anyhow, thanks for any help.

I'll answer what I can, I have or do run thugs/time, bots/traps and necro dark.

Let's see:

1. I really don't notice significant knockback on my thugs. He's very good about closing to melee and not spamming hurl.

2. Thugs and traps. As far as I know with some io's and ffg your pets should be softcapped. Typically my observation is that if your pet dies its to a burst of damage. If you'd like a bit of healing just in case there's always aid other.

Honestly my thugs don't really die all that much outside of specific weakness. Running off on own, aoe, some debuffs, etc.


3. Don't run demons but I'll just comment that pets are stupid and all will run into melee. Dealing with that is part of the cat herding that is mastermind gameplay.

4. I'm relatively certain keeping any pets ranged or not entirely at ranged is practically impossible or at least a frustrating amount of work. That's where your secondary comes in, keeping them alive.

5. Lich is basically a dark defender...sorta kinda. Most sets have a pet that leans a bit toward defense or control. Necro it's the lich, bots its pro bot. Having that as the last pet actually makes the damage feel less terrible as you level.

6. Do not expect necro heal to keep your pets up. I would cynically tell you to not even expect to notice the heal but I'm sure it does have some effect.

7. Concepts are entirely up to you. An evil magician wielding dark nether powers could probably easily take over a small street gang and intimidate them into doing his nefarious bidding. Tada Thugs/dark. If you don't have a concept already, inventing one doesn't seem that hard to me. Your character could be a natural demon hunter that has specialized devices to summon lesser demons and bind them to you to hunt other demons with. Demons/traps.

My Thug/Dark MM is lvl 24 right now and he is really fun to play, I have a couple of the +Def, +Res IO's that help the pets if they are actually able to hit past the DeBuff. What I do to keep them alive is to spam the heal and you Darkest Night on every Mob.

As far as I know Thugs, Demons, and Bots are the best but Necro is really fun even though they are really stupid and Traps can pretty much go with anything if you want it to really.

Personally, I think you're making it too complicated. This game can be simple or complex, depending on how you like to play.

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Originally Posted by dmurray Basically I hate that a few guides make it so you'll be the one doing the tanking (with defense mode). That isn't what I really want to do when I'm fighting; I'd rather my minions get beat up and do the damage and me supporting.

Tankerminding is more of a concept than a substitute for using your secondary. Meaning, they are not mutually exclusive tasks. It is very straightforward though in a sense: if you can build your mastermind's defense rating up to the softcap (45%) then even-con enemies' hit chance is floored. At its most basic, this is a passive state - either you have reached the cap or you haven't.

Where it becomes more complicated (and more active), is when you add things like -hit - either through the /dark or /storm secondaries (by way of example). -hit to an enemy is like +def to you and your pets. So, masterminding opens up conceptually to merely the control of enemy aggro during the time of active battle, not tanking per se.

So back to tankerminding -- the control aspect comes not from the defense state, but from using your secondary to gain enemy attention to YOU instead of your pets, and by using a taunt (provoke) in your secondary power pool.

For example, I have a necro/dark with softcapped S/L/E who nonetheless is very active with her secondary to make sure enemies' hit chance is reduced, stuns are thrown out, immobilizes and holds liberally spread, damage output reduced, etc... Also, she is directing the grave knights to focus damage on key targets, positioning the lich to maximize its controls, and making sure the zombies aren't pulling additional groups.

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Originally Posted by dmurray I absolutely love the idea of necro/dark but from what I've gather bots/traps are really best at soloing things later on. I have no problem with this but I'd rather play a powerset that isn't relient on me having to tank the damage all the time. GMs/AVs are understandable since they're much rarer than standard bosses but like I said in the last paragraph, I don't want to be the tank; I want to be supportive and helpful.

It is very rare combination of powersets that have your pets taking the damage AND you not having to constantly resummon them. The reason having the mastermind is so attractive to taking the alpha is because of the idea of layered defenses. Defense reduces the chance you are hit. Next, add bodyguard mode and the mastermind is either conceptually privy to a) health pool increased, or b) tons of resistance. Finally, masterminds also have access to patron resist shields, as well as the 'tough' power for additional, actual or native resistance. Third, any healing available from your secondary (or primary, in the case of random demon AoE healing). Lastly, your secondary may have powers to control your enemies. These four areas are all items over which the player has control.

Conversely, you cannot direct your pets to use a certain power. You cannot decide when one will heal itself or use a control ability. Sometimes, you may even have trouble making them stay at range or in melee - depending on your desire. You can suggest which enemies your pets *should* attack, but that also can be an iffy proposition. What you are left with is the idea that as the player, you have more control as to how a fight develops, and you have many tools to take alpha strikes.

Conclusion, don't think of yourself as a "tank" so much, in the classic MMO sense. Work on making your tools work for you. That will change based on the combo, your level, your difficulty, and your IO investment.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville ...[I]t would be more proper to say this game is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly dying.

Ok, I'm going to chime in here again because, well I'm somewhat new to the game and was new to masterminds a couple of months ago and basically had the same questions you did, and got much the same responses. What did it lead me to? Confusion

It all comes down to your playstyle, and as I mentioned yesterday, you won't get a realistic grasp of the capabilities of your MM until lvl 26 when you get the 2nd tier training/equip ability. Then, things get very, very fun

What someone says will work well for them, didn't work so well for me....and that may be the case with you as well. Just do what feels right and fits well with the way you play, and you will be happy.

As another poster said, MM are THE solo'ers of the game. However, I personally have not found the bodyguard mode very helpful in soloing. What I do in large groups with many LTs and Bosses is to target specific foes until they are dead, rinse and repeat until the horde is gone. If I stick with bg mode, then the ninjas spread out and go 1:1 with each foe. This draws the battle out, and if I get a tier 1 henchman against an LT or boss, well he's finished. It's easier for me to take them out one by one. Literally I can take down a +3 boss before I can reach for a drink and take a sip if I do it this way. Also, with FF as my secondary, the only way I can tank is if I use personal FF, which cripples my ability to control and removes the other pbaoe buffs I share with henchmen. The only way I can effectively use BG mode is in a team. And therefore tanking isn't really my thing when MM'ing.

But again, this is just one way to play. I have tried to place the henchmen at strategic points for ranged, melee, and control....but once they defeat a foe, this strategy is left for the chaos that is the henchmen AI.

Also, I have to disagree that FF is a boring secondary. I am constantly having to apply the ff's to newly summoned henchies, toggling the force repellent on/off, same with personal ff. Granted, there are no good debuffs or other things to cast at enemies with active frequency, but there are plenty of things to do. Again, that's just the way I personally play. It's all about personal interest here. However, I will say that once you get barrier....you are done. Nothing will touch you....for about 30-45 seconds

And, for the record.....ninjas > anything

32 is the second tier equip. 26 is the Boss Pet.

Thugs/traps is my main's main's main. When something new comes out, she's the first one to tear it up.

Don't worry about the bruiser KB stuff.