City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Blasters and mez - Are we going about it wrong?

Abyssus

By Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-05-22 23:26 in Blasters

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigonus View Post
Yet it is very conditional in it's availability, which you conveniently don't mention, making it technically free, but not often available since not all PBs want to team. Hardly the definition of a useful ability, but ok I'll grant you that.


 

Posted

Having multiple inherent abilities or even an ability with multiple effects insn't uncommon.

Controllers have 2. Overpower and Containment.

Stalkers have Assasination which: provides chance to crit from Hide (some powers don't or have a capped %), chance to crit increase based on team size and proximity, a Demorializing effect which can terrorize and has a to-hit debuff, they can crit on held or sleeping targets, now Assassin's Focus which allows the player to build up their chance to crit as well.

Dominators have Domination which: is has endurance recovery, doubles the magnitude of controls, increases the duration of controls by 50%, and provides mez protection.

Defenders: Vigilence which: provides a recovery buff based on low team health, and a damage buff that decreases with team size.

Kheldians have cosmic balance which can provide any combination of damage buff, damage resistance, a recharge slow resistance, and mez protection.

I'm not saying that all of these effects are perfect for each AT. But many of them stem from the fact that there were performance issues that the devs were able to assertain and in some cases (like Stalkers) it has taken many things to get them close or at where they "should" be.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post

Cute. Looks like this thread has officially jumped the shark. I thought it was actually going pretty well till now.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I've never had my sarcasm, spurious, and schizophrenia alarms all go off simultaneously that strongly before.
What do you mean?

If you cant use your powers to annihilate a target with fire/fire blasters.....then what the heck are you doing?

And if this a reference to my hot feet comment.....thats hot feet...thats not burn.

not knowing the difference is not knowing how to play a character.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigonus View Post
Cute. Looks like this thread has officially jumped the shark. I thought it was actually going pretty well till now.
It seemed sufficient since MIB 3 is out and that's exactly how I felt when I read your last post.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigonus View Post
Well see I'm trying to get across that something should be done beyond simply piling more inherents on top of the heap that Blasters have become. I mean really, how many inherent abilities are they going to get? How well has that worked so far? But sure, instead of fixing the real issues, lets just keep throwing inherents at Blasters and see what sticks. Then we can listen to the other ATs complain that they only get one inherent ability and it's not fair blah blah powercreep.
First, I think most everyone who wants to see blasters fixed would be more than happy if that fix comes in the form of additions to actual blaster powers. While many suggestions involve adding stuff to the inherent, many are about adding stuff to the powers themselves.

Second, depending on what you want the concept of the AT to be, they can put as much stuff into the inherent as it takes to meet that concept. If they decide against adding control/debuff to attacks and just want an AT with a mix of range and melee attacks, they should feel free to add whatever is necessary to the inherent to make that concept function.

Think about brutes.
They are low damage.
They have good self armors.
Most of their attack sets have significant control baked into regular attacks and have a few attacks that are just more control.
All of their attacks also have taunt baked in.
All of those things are part of their powers.
Then they get +150% damage from their inherent. A massive boost. They get all their survivability from their powers and a huge chunk of their damage from the inherent. It might be worth noting that the inherent actually has several properties: it measures incoming attacks, it measures attacks made, and it notes when enemies of certain ranks are nearby.

Blasters could be the opposite if that was chosen. They could get all or most of their damage from their powers and a big boost to survivability from the inherent. I am not saying that should happen, but it is not a problem nor bad design.

Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
No that isn't even a particularly well thought out conjecture.

Defiance 1.0 encouraged blasters to be suicidal. It rewarded players for being near death. Defiance 2.0 changed that entirely around. While your conclusion may or may not be correct, the way you are trying to get there isn't even close to being correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
This would be a meaningful objection if the devs hadn't datamined blasters as being underperforming before Defiance 1.0 was introduced. That was why we *got* Defiance 1.0 in the first place, along with increased health.

Let me get this straight. I am saying you are trying to compare apples and oranges, and your response is "Look at the Kumquats" ?

OK.

If anything the only thing introducing pre defiance 1.0 blasters into the universe of discussion is to strengthen the argument that the methodology used to fix blasters in the past is fundamentally flawed.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Let me get this straight. I am saying you are trying to compare apples and oranges, and your response is "Look at the Kumquats" ?
The logic chain seems apparent to me.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
The logic chain seems apparent to me.
Really would you care to elaborate ? That statement seems a little sparse.

I am curious how you are extrapolating from not even data but general statements about the performance of 2 different things to arrive at a conclusion about a 3rd data set from yet another entirely different circumstance.

 

Posted

If I'm understanding it right, Arcanaville said that datamining showed a lot of information about blaster deaths, including that they die more than everyone and are much more likely to die while under a mez effect. Arcanaville said that the best explanation for this is that mez is a serious issue for blasters that should be addressed. You countered that the data could more easily be explained by defiance 1.0 encouraging poor gameplay, to which Arcanaville said if that were the case then the datamining from before defiance 1.0 would not have shown blasters to be underperforming as they were afterwards.

 

Posted

I have an idea that not only combines a lot of your ideas, but stays with the blaster concept.

It would require a couple of changes to current powers and to the inherent:

1. Inherent Changes- Add to defiance a stacking mez resistence, that works similar to the stacking damage buff. Longer Animation time, better/longer buff. Needs to be somewhat reliable once blasters have leveled to a constant chain of attacks(at LEAST halve the duration's)

2. Changes to Aim/BU- I have a couple of changes for these powers.

  • Make each powerset have a slightly unique Aim/BU by adding a boost to the common secondary effect in the set, possibly 2 different boosts(this would also probabbly mean each sets going to need a cool name for the new power)
    ***Special exceptions will be listed below
  • Add mez protection to the Aim/BU. Going along with the theme of a defiant blaster, once all charged up with a target in sight, the blaster ignores mez for a short time. This would grant the blaster a good amount of mez protect for a short time WITH the damage/To Hit boost (10 secs). either 3 mag for each or 6 mag for each.

For example: Electric blasts Aim would change to something called charge(#'s At lvl50):
+37.5% To Hit for 10 secs
+62.5% DMG for 10 secs
+78.672% End mod for 10 secs
+39.336% Hold for 10 secs (this is the *secondary* secondary effect)
+(3 or 6?) mag protection to all for 10 secs

This not only gives blasters an extremely unique power for each set, it solves the mez problem while not being overpowered. You either have the choice to stack both for mez heavy mobs, at the cost of a shorter duration, or can spread them out to have it last longer. It also helps the blaster contribute to the team. When both Aim and BU are recharging, you still have your stacking mez resist to shorten the time youre vulnerable.

If you guys like this idea, i can compile Aims/BU's for each powerset and post them here for discussion.
(((((((((((((EDIT))))))))))))
Aim/BU would also have to be flagged to be able to be used while mezzed, like the beginning blaster powers are

***Special Exceptions
Devices: place mag 3 mez protect in a toggle(maybe in both?). Constant mez protect give it a slight advantage over other sets to balance out its 'under performance" while also not being enough that would make stacking mez res useless. Problems with the Secondary effect boost could also be solved this way

Darkness Manipulation: Place mez protect in soul drain. Frontload 3 mag mez prot, then 1 mag for each mob hit. Secondary effect boost would also frontload and increase per mob.

Dual Pistols: Put mag 6 mez protect in Hail of Bullets OR add mag 3 mez protect into the swap ammo inherent. Secondary effect conflict would be a reason to look at the ammo mechanic, and possibly buff -dam, slow, -rech, and -def numbers, and possibly add in unigue debuffs to piercing depending on ammo(standard:-res, Chem:-regen, Cryo:-tohit, Incendiary:Dot)

Assault Riffle: Put mag 6 mez protect in Full auto, but im unsure of what to do about the Secondary effect boost. What should it be and where should we put it?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
If I'm understanding it right, Arcanaville said that datamining showed a lot of information about blaster deaths, including that they die more than everyone and are much more likely to die while under a mez effect. Arcanaville said that the best explanation for this is that mez is a serious issue for blasters that should be addressed. You countered that the data could more easily be explained by defiance 1.0 encouraging poor gameplay, to which Arcanaville said if that were the case then the datamining from before defiance 1.0 would not have shown blasters to be underperforming as they were afterwards.

Nope, To my knowledge she has never shown any data that link blaster death to mezz. As far as I have seen the only data we have is that blasters die a lot. When you change things they still die a lot.

We also have a data dump from the devs that shows blasters are the most popular created AT and somewhere drop off to become the third most popular at 50.

We don't know how bad it was without defiance 1.0, if defiance 1.0 made it worse, or just not better enough. We really are lacking is where the blaster with Defiance 2.0 fits in all of this as well.

You might as well be using a Magic 8 ball to determine what should be done with blasters.

Edit: And that is from someone who completely agrees that blasters have problems and has been saying so for years

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Since its the only theory that explains the facts, which are that prior to D2.0 Blaster performance was lower than any other archetype, and that major underperformance correlated with higher than average mezzed, higher than average deaths and debt, and higher than average death while in the mezzed state
Shown here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Since its the only theory that explains the facts, which are that prior to D2.0 Blaster performance was lower than any other archetype, and that major underperformance correlated with higher than average mezzed, higher than average deaths and debt, and higher than average death while in the mezzed state
Shown here.
Correlation is not causation. Especially in this case.

Blasters have the worst too ls for dealing with mez in the game so it is hardly surprising that they should spend the most time mezed. Matter of fact it is almost axiomatic. What isn't shown is that mez is the cause of death or even if it is just something that comes along with the damage that kills a blaster.

It is also hardly the only theory, that's just Arcanavile creating a strawman. Here are a few alternates.

1, Blasters have the worst defenses in the game. This means mezed or unmezed they are going to die faster than other ATs

2. Blasters have the worst figure of merit in the game when it comes to survivability * damage output.

3. Blaster secondaries provide insufficient utility/survivability. Imagine if the blaster tier 1 instead of being a single target immob or kb were a an aoe/pbaoe immob or kb. The active defense would actually scale with incoming attacks instead of being useless if more than a few enemies are attacking.

 

Posted

If I may (feel free to ignore me)

Mez should not be something that can be ignored easily by certain ATs, mainly because it sort of defeats the purpose of having them in the game at all.

But they are too binary right now for blasters... how about if blasters were able to trade some damage to snap out of mez?

What if they got an inherent click that grants mag 3 full mez protection (no resistance) for 30 seconds and a 0.1 second recharge, it also gives the player a -15% damage debuff and can only be activated if you are currently mezzed. Cap stacks at 4.

This power would allow you to break out of a max mag 12 mez, and every 3 points of mez would cost you -15% additional damage debuff. Would make a difference between being hit with Mag 4 or mag 8 as far as performance goes.

Mezes also don't get entirely negated, because they are in a way hindering the blaster's damage, only no longer entirely nullifying it.

You also get to use it strategically, since you can potentially overuse it to break out of a 5 second mez with a maximum penalty of -60% damage for 30 seconds.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Also, Resilience has both mez resistance and mez protection in a passive and it has existed in that state for almost as long as the game has existed, which means the devs "broke" that rule practically from the beginning of time.
Not saying I disagree with the points but I was under the impression that resilience used to only have resistance, the protection being added during its buff a while back... is my memory that rusty?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Not saying I disagree with the points but I was under the impression that resilience used to only have resistance, the protection being added during its buff a while back... is my memory that rusty?
I am pretty sure using an awaken and not being stunned was a regen thing as far back as I remember.

Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
I am pretty sure using an awaken and not being stunned was a regen thing as far back as I remember.
I stand corrected then!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
What isn't shown is that mez is the cause of death
"Higher than average death while in the mezzed state" is exactly what shows that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Not saying I disagree with the points but I was under the impression that resilience used to only have resistance, the protection being added during its buff a while back... is my memory that rusty?
I have no facts to back this up, but I don't recall this either.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
"Higher than average death while in the mezzed state" is exactly what shows that.
If you are mezed the most to begin with you are going to have the most deaths while mezed.

Imagine you have two kinds of pot.

1 a hard to break pot.

2 an easy to break pot.

Now if you put the the hard to break pots in the shade, and the easy to break pots where its sunny, you are going to find that more pots broke where it was sunny.


Saying that lack of mez protection explains blaster's problems is like saying sunlight explains why the pots are breaking.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
"Higher than average death while in the mezzed state" is exactly what shows that.
Although, if a higher than average rate of death while not in a mez'd state is also true, the distinction of mez'd or not mez'd may be a non (or secondary) issue.

I'm not convinced that mez is the major key to Blaster's survivability problems. I'm not saying it absolutely isn't, but I'm not convinced that it is.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post

What if they got an inherent click that grants mag 3 full mez protection (no resistance) for 30 seconds and a 0.1 second recharge, it also gives the player a -15% damage debuff and can only be activated if you are currently mezzed. Cap stacks at 4.
Hmm you want the AT that has damage as its only thing but already is in 4th or worse place, to give up more damage

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
Although, if a higher than average rate of death while not in a mez'd state is also true, the distinction of mez'd or not mez'd may be a non (or secondary) issue.

I'm not convinced that mez is the major key to Blaster's survivability problems. I'm not saying it absolutely isn't, but I'm not convinced that it is.
The problem is the idea that there is a Magic Key to all blaster problems. Blasters have a all kinds of issues, from powersets that are thematic but not effective, to built in low survivability, and initial concepts that range is a viable defense and damage is how they win through.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Hmm you want the AT that has damage as its only thing but already is in 4th or worse place, to give up more damage
You give up all your damage while mezzed. I proposed a way to only give up 15% (and in debuff form, this is heavily mitigated by buffs and enhancements) so you don't entirely ignore mez.

Technically a fully enhanced blaster with just SOs would give about 7.5% damage for the ability to snap out of a hold.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Correlation is not causation.
Correlation is linkage, which is what you originally asked for.

Causation is impossible to prove, because mez doesn't cause death. Only damage causes death. However, I don't feel compelled to actually attempt to prove absolutely that mez contributes to death, because that's a sufficiently obvious fact.

Since mez contributes to death in terms of increasing the likelihood of either death or being weakened to the point of being more vulnerable to death, and blasters were datamined to be mezzed more often, and were datamined to be killed while mezzed more often, those are sufficient to induce that mez contributes to blaster underperformance. Neither I nor the devs ever stated or even implied that it was the sole cause of blaster underperformance, and in fact I disavowed that idea many times, including in every recent thread about blaster mez protection. In fact, I've gone out of my way to state several times that one of the reasons why I'm not generally supportive of granting direct mez protection to blasters is explicitly because I don't think its the sole or overwhelmingly concentrated cause of blaster underperformance, but focusing on granting mez protection could lead the devs to fail to address the more general problem of survivability and offensive capability balance.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)