Melee Epic Power Pool: Dual Pistols!
By
Angelxman81,
Posted on: 2012-05-15 21:40 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Every one of my Stalkers would take this pool. Even if they did zero damage. Of course, Stalkers wouldn't get this pool, just like they didn't get Shields and Titan Weapons...
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Hah, more like..
Dual Wield
Suppressive Fire
Targeting Drone
Piercing Round
Bullet Rain
But that was funny though, BrandX 
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Likely, buuuut, I did say for my suggestion, I'd be willing to pay the 800 Points |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hah, more like..
Dual Wield Suppressive Fire Targeting Drone Piercing Round Bullet Rain But that was funny though, BrandX |
I mean really, Executioner's Shot is just a great animation! And so what if the set would give you nother PBAOE, it's Hail of Bullets! It's needed! Lower the damage, longer rechare, and let it be in there!
I'd settle for something close to your suggestion purely to get the concept though
Don't care for the idea of Targeting Drone though.Maybe go with a passive +tohit power. Call it palm link or whatever it was called in the cyberpunk/shadowrun RPGS.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I always think they should have done some kind of Praetorian epic power pools, with Dual pistols (Maelstrom) and Demon summon (Desdemona) the 3 whip attacks, the pet summon and the buff.
Same powers for all the archetypes.
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That might of worked, but I think Maelstrom is killed off isn't he? Or "arrested"...can you arrest someone when you're neither the law enforcement of that dimensions government or even from that dimension (Primals: We have defeated him! Now lets take him to our jails!) |
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
I always think they should have done some kind of Praetorian epic power pools, with Dual pistols (Maelstrom) and Demon summon (Desdemona) the 3 whip attacks, the pet summon and the buff.
Same powers for all the archetypes. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I had something like this in one of my earlier threads.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
Going with my suggested list, I'd likely do the following...
All lethal damage. No Swap Ammo or added exotic damage types. This is an epic pool, not Primary/Secondary Powerset. So it all stays lethal ammo.
Dual Wield: Double the END/RCH of DW, with whatever damage they use for the melee AT Epic Blasts.
Executioner's Shot: The same as DW.
DW would give KD instead of KB, and ES would lose it's KB entirely. DW would be have the advantage of longer range and a form of defense (KD) where as ES would just be about a power hit.
DW would keep it's range, while ES would be lowered to 20ft.
Distinct advantages imo for picking one or the other, or even picking both up. Since one couldn't make a chain with these, I don't see a worry in 2 ST blasts in the set.
Physical Perfection would be like Physical Perfection is now. I chose this as it was already in game, but I do like the idea of different passive. Maybe...
Smartlink: +ToHit/+DMG or +ToHit/+ENDREC.
I think keeping it a passive works better than giving the player a less universal concept power. Could go Toggle ala Focused Accuracy, but I like the idea of it being a different than the +ToHit toggles in the other epic pools.
Bullet Rain: See DW! Keep the KD or lose it, but keep it KD over KB.
Hail of Bullets: Double Recharge, +25% END of normal HoB, lower radius to 10-15ft. Lower Damage.
Or even better, keep it inline with Spring Attack (cost/rch/dmg wise), but lose the teleport. Maybe keep the +DEF aspect, but easily loseable.
By keeping it inline with Spring Attack, I really wouldn't consider the power OPed for any of the melees who could just as easily take SA.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I don't condone paying to be overpowered.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Likely, buuuut, I did say for my suggestion, I'd be willing to pay the 800 Points
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But I'd sooner pay for an AT that's *balanced* to have blasts and armor than an OP epic that just sets a hugely bad example for the Paragon Market.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Dual Wield: Double the END/RCH of DW, with whatever damage they use for the melee AT Epic Blasts. |
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| Executioner's Shot: The same as DW. |
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| DW would give KD instead of KB, and ES would lose it's KB entirely. DW would be have the advantage of longer range and a form of defense (KD) where as ES would just be about a power hit. |
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| DW would keep it's range, while ES would be lowered to 20ft. |
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| Distinct advantages imo for picking one or the other, or even picking both up. Since one couldn't make a chain with these, I don't see a worry in 2 ST blasts in the set. |
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Bullet Rain: See DW! Keep the KD or lose it, but keep it KD over KB. Hail of Bullets: Double Recharge, +25% END of normal HoB, lower radius to 10-15ft. Lower Damage. Or even better, keep it inline with Spring Attack (cost/rch/dmg wise), but lose the teleport. Maybe keep the +DEF aspect, but easily loseable. By keeping it inline with Spring Attack, I really wouldn't consider the power OPed for any of the melees who could just as easily take SA. |
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Lower the damage then. I'm not really trying to pay for power. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I don't condone paying to be overpowered.
But I'd sooner pay for an AT that's *balanced* to have blasts and armor than an OP epic that just sets a hugely bad example for the Paragon Market. And lower its damage too considering the epics tend to use tier 1 powers unless the pool has limited ST attacks, then it may sub in the tier 2. I'd probably just put in Pistols instead. That attack's animation is varied and more simple which seems to be what people want. Epics don't have tier 3 blasts in them. They definitely don't have tier 2 + tier 3 blasts in the same pool. At least Piercing Shot can be excused as a snipe-like power or because it's technically a multi-target attack. This just reeks of motive. What do you gain from removing the only purpose of using a ranged attack on a melee (to affect a foe at range more than just for damage)? It'd be understandable if we were talking about multi-target attacks here, but this is just Executioner's Shot. Heck, it takes away from the flavor of the power to remove the KB. Maybe you're trying to 'weaken' the power's effects to appeal as more of a balance but I highly doubt that as the case. And this is even worse. Not only are you aiming to conform the concept to your niche needs, you're knee capping people that *actually* want to *shoot* people at *range* like every other epic pool can. I think the shortest range is Energy Torrent and Tentacles at 40 ft and they're cones. Of course, you can not have 2 ST blasts in the set too. It has far more AoE than any other epic without sacrificing ST or needing to use cones to get advantage of it. On top of that, it provides practically no utility. Even Fire, the element known for being low on survival, has 2 utility powers. I don't get why you seem to be trying to shoehorn Executioner's Shot and both the other AoEs when you know the set should have 2 utility powers, one being a control of some kind while knowing full well there is one available. |
What I'm going for is purely cosmetic. I love the looks of DW (dodge and blast!), ES (it's ES!), and Hail of Bullets!
Though, something to remember, there would be redraw no matter what set you pair it with, as one will always have to draw the pistols.
Bullet Rain is added in because I love it's animation and it gives a ranged AOE *shrug*
Also, why make the set exactly like the others? Body Mastery I consider nothing like the others. So why not another?
Also, my idea is more intent to fill in concept gaps for many. "Hey, I have pistols as well as sword/fists/ect"
But you'll also note I said I was more than willing to go with your suggestion, but I would like to see Hail of Bullets for the animation! Really now...LOVE LOVE LOVE THAT ANIMATION!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
@Leo_G: I don't think that response was necessary. I do think the point of a suggestion thread is to post how we envision these features being implemented. They 99% most likely won't be implemented how you, myself, BrandX or any player imagines they will be. Rather, they'll be implemented the way the developers see fit (even if laying down a baseline idea is probably in the best interest, which Brand did). Ergo, tearing apart the thread and the initial idea with a large wall of text is kind of silly.
I actually think this, and the above idea of signature epic pools, are nifty ideas that spark some thought.
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I saw what Leo was saying. I can see how he might think I was going for some power epic. I really wasn't. Also, it's Dual Pistols, playing multiple Dual Pistols, I wouldn't think it's really that powerful.|
Originally Posted by Runo
@Leo_G: I don't think that response was necessary. I do think the point of a suggestion thread is to post how we envision these features being implemented. They 99% most likely won't be implemented how you, myself, BrandX or any player imagines they will be. Rather, they'll be implemented the way the developers see fit (even if laying down a baseline idea is probably in the best interest, which Brand did). Ergo, tearing apart the thread and the initial idea with a large wall of text is kind of silly.
I actually think this, and the above idea of signature epic pools, are nifty ideas that spark some thought. |
However, I do think giving the Epic Pool Hail of Bullets, and basically making it a clone of Spring Attack is a good idea, and not over powered at all.
For one, one would need to draw the pistols everytime to use it. It also to my knowledge would have a longer animation.
Would it be an additional AOE? Yes. But seeing as how any melee could take Spring Attack for additional AOE, I really don't see that being a problem.
I also don't see why the sets have to mirror each other. They already have sets that don't stick to the common Hold/Immobilize/Range ST/Range AOE/Utility Power.
One of the reasons I lowered the range of ES in my suggestion was because I was looking to think of things to help keep it balanced. If lowering the damage is a way to do it, do it. But I agree, KD helps with the theme of the power (KB would seem more comicy tho, wouldn't it?)
I was also picking my suggested powers for the Epic based purely on animations.
So with that, a new suggestion that can combine things a bit.
1) Double Tap - Dual Wield Animation (1.67sec animation) - ST Disorient - Pistols Level Damage with 9.75 END/10s Recharge/80ft Range
2) Executioner's Shot - ES Animation (of course) - ST KD (I don't say KB because many melee types hate KB, but I could live with it, could even give a chance for additional KB and this is merely suggested because Leo mentioned theme of the power
) - 20-40ft Range (lower range is merely a suggestion if perhaps it is to powerful) - Dual Wield Level Damage with 10.66 END/32 Second RechargeThere, two single taget mez powers, Disorient and KD.
3) Bullet Rain - Double the END/RCH of Bullet Rain - Making it in the 2nd tier isn't bad really, as this suggestion is meant to keep the Epic Power Pool the same for ALL Melee ATs, and Brutes/Tankers have AOEs in the 2nd Teir.
4) One With The Gun - Passive +ToHit (or +ACC)/ENDREC or +DMG or nothing and maybe +Perception.
Ranged AOE and a Utility Power
5) Hail of Bullets - Same stats as Spring Attack, no teleporting, maybe get rid of the +DEF aspect. Can even lower the radius.
It's HAIL OF BULLETS! It's the animation of animations!
Okay admittedly, just imo. Why not let this be the set more about adding damage, that in the end tends to be found to be highly resistant? Not to mention, if people can pick up Spring Attack and it's not considered OP, I don't see what giving the option in an Epic Pool makes for being OPed.I don't think we'll see this suggestion used by the min/maxer, with it being lethal damage, longer animations, and redrawing everytime it's used. Even with having the chance at two additional AOEs.
What I do think we'll see is people using it to fill in concepts! While getting a different experience from the typical epic pools.
Able to have their gunfu! Or possibly the martial artist cowboy! What have you!
Also, seeing the list of powers I gave it, could also give it to MMs for an Epic set! Thug MM's might like it as well (but of course the option would be there for all MMs).
5 ATs 1 new Epic Power Pool! Animations are done for it!
Want to go farther?
Give it to Widows and Soldiers as well who lack an Epic Power Pool! Fits their theme easily and bumps the one Epic Power Pool to 7 ATs!
Sell it for 100-400 points (Id pay up to 800 myself). Or sell it to F2P and free for VIPs! There's way to get return for recycling animations while giving a new Epic Pool that helps people obtain much wanted concepts.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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No response is ever necessary. This isn't an online class where we have to log in a certain number of hours here. Conversely, I should be free to reply how I want to so long as it's following the forum rules and pertains to the subject. Are you implying neither of those are the case?|
Originally Posted by Runo
@Leo_G: I don't think that response was necessary. I do think the point of a suggestion thread is to post how we envision these features being implemented. They 99% most likely won't be implemented how you, myself, BrandX or any player imagines they will be. Rather, they'll be implemented the way the developers see fit (even if laying down a baseline idea is probably in the best interest, which Brand did). Ergo, tearing apart the thread and the initial idea with a large wall of text is kind of silly.
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And I'm not tearing anything apart. I'm discussing it. If we were not to discuss it, fewer people will bother clicking the thread, reading it and the idea simply dies off until another thread is made.
Lastly, a wall of text implies I did not form paragraphs and making it difficult to read. If you cannot handle reading more than one paragraph pertaining to the subject, that is your problem.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I saw what Leo was saying. I can see how he might think I was going for some power epic. I really wasn't. Also, it's Dual Pistols, playing multiple Dual Pistols, I wouldn't think it's really that powerful.
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| However, I do think giving the Epic Pool Hail of Bullets, and basically making it a clone of Spring Attack is a good idea, and not over powered at all. |
My point was the pool having HoB *and* Bullet Rain. And having Executioner's Shot *and* Dual Wield.
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| For one, one would need to draw the pistols everytime to use it. It also to my knowledge would have a longer animation. |
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| Would it be an additional AOE? Yes. But seeing as how any melee could take Spring Attack for additional AOE, I really don't see that being a problem. |
But that's more a tangent. But just because the melees can get more AoEs isn't an excuse to open the deluge of AoE for them. IMO, the rangers are suppose to be the best at AoE because of the area. That isn't the case because melees will demand that advantage be overturned by herding.
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| I also don't see why the sets have to mirror each other. They already have sets that don't stick to the common Hold/Immobilize/Range ST/Range AOE/Utility Power. |
Body Mastery doesn't follow that formula but it has overall fewer attacks and passive utility. Darkness Mastery has mainly AoE but they're all cones that one is better to use at range for full effect. And the patron pools follow their own formula with different advantages and shortcomings. I don't see any shortcomings or compromise with your proposed set. Redraw is hardly a shortcoming.
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So with that, a new suggestion that can combine things a bit. 1) Double Tap - Dual Wield Animation (1.67sec animation) - ST Disorient - Pistols Level Damage with 9.75 END/10s Recharge/80ft Range 2) Executioner's Shot - ES Animation (of course) - ST KD (I don't say KB because many melee types hate KB, but I could live with it, could even give a chance for additional KB and this is merely suggested because Leo mentioned theme of the power ) - 20-40ft Range (lower range is merely a suggestion if perhaps it is to powerful) - Dual Wield Level Damage with 10.66 END/32 Second RechargeThere, two single taget mez powers, Disorient and KD. 3) Bullet Rain - Double the END/RCH of Bullet Rain - Making it in the 2nd tier isn't bad really, as this suggestion is meant to keep the Epic Power Pool the same for ALL Melee ATs, and Brutes/Tankers have AOEs in the 2nd Teir. 4) One With The Gun - Passive +ToHit (or +ACC)/ENDREC or +DMG or nothing and maybe +Perception. Ranged AOE and a Utility Power 5) Hail of Bullets - Same stats as Spring Attack, no teleporting, maybe get rid of the +DEF aspect. Can even lower the radius. |
But that said, I am not against the theme as I love my DP to death. But to make another, alternative and quirky suggestion:
1. Double Tap (Dual Wield's animation) same dmg as Pistols with a chance of KD.
2. Honorary Execution (Executioner's Shot's animation) Dual Wield's damage, PBAoE mag 2 fear (8ft) and grants foe temp power for 5 seconds that casts a mag 1 fear around itself upon defeat (8ft).
3. Trick Load (part of Piercing Round's animation) Self +ToHit, chance to recharge any of the pistol attacks instantly. 60 sec rech.
4. Bullet Dance (Hail of Bullets' animation) Bullet Rain's dmg, 10ft range, 5 target cap, 90 sec recharge. Grants 20% def to self for 15 seconds. It's a mirror of Shadow Meld but is also an attack.
5. Bullet Rain (same power but 2x the recharge) Grays out Trick Load for 15 seconds.
Something else I forgot to comment on...Shield Defense.
I don't think there is a pool, currently, unchoosable by any AT. Pools are designed to be used by all, right? So this would be the only pool that excludes something? You're trying to set a lot more precedence with this set than you think...
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I like your suggestion, gives the animations, and you're right, it was purely my favored animations of the set. But then, I was the one making the suggestion. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Something else I forgot to comment on...Shield Defense.
I don't think there is a pool, currently, unchoosable by any AT. Pools are designed to be used by all, right? So this would be the only pool that excludes something? You're trying to set a lot more precedence with this set than you think... |
Though, something to do is switch it around for the effects.
ES animation decent damage ST Blast.
Then DW's animation for the mez attack (I just like DW's animation more than Suppressive Fire).
I suggest this just because of the two attacks, ES's animation I think calls for the damage more. Double Tap could also work as any type of mez...maybe immobilze as you dodge, duck down and shoot them in the leg?
But you're right, I didn't think about Shield Defense. Personally, I say go with it. Shield Defense can't use Dual Wield. Just how it goes, no need to worry about it imo. I'm sure there's some concepts that would like it, but we know there's technical limits for it, just like we can't pair claws and shield.
And well yeah, trying to get the animations I love into limit. But this is me trying to get that martial artist/dual pistol using melee type I've basically been wanting since I picked up the game.
Could just come up with a Gun Fu set for Melee, that has no more ranged attacks than any other set, but even with sets like claws, KM, Spines having multiple ranged attacks, that always seems to go "Noooo" with a few vocal people.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I'd personally rather the devs work on those new ATs and sell sell sell. With the new epic AT that's coming out, fill out the game's niches with 3 more basic ones:|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Could just come up with a Gun Fu set for Melee, that has no more ranged attacks than any other set, but even with sets like claws, KM, Spines having multiple ranged attacks, that always seems to go "Noooo" with a few vocal people. |
Melee/(de)Buff
Armor/Blast
Pet/(Assault or something)
Basically, open up the styles more. People that want to blast but don't like being squishy will buy a new AT and the new blast sets they didn't have, people that love to melee can buy a new AT and the new support sets out there and any AT that uses pets will get you more bang for your buck when developing pet sets.
I'd be more in support of that, although it'd be more work. But hey, if you want to do something right, it often requires that effort...
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Totally not against those ideas either. Though, I fear Armor/Blast would be suckie damage, when I never really felt range was a defense outside of hover blasting and even then you needed defense to back it up.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'd personally rather the devs work on those new ATs and sell sell sell. With the new epic AT that's coming out, fill out the game's niches with 3 more basic ones:
Melee/(de)Buff Armor/Blast Pet/(Assault or something) Basically, open up the styles more. People that want to blast but don't like being squishy will buy a new AT and the new blast sets they didn't have, people that love to melee can buy a new AT and the new support sets out there and any AT that uses pets will get you more bang for your buck when developing pet sets. I'd be more in support of that, although it'd be more work. But hey, if you want to do something right, it often requires that effort... |
My suggestion for Dual Pistols Epic Pool I don't think would require all that much more extra time outside of some testing though. Obviously I don't know for sure, but the animations are done.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Irrespective of everything else, there's nothing to lose by giving melee ATs a Dual Pistols epic. We can argue numerical balance, sure, but those are technicalities. I'd say go off the Patron model with a couple of single-target blasts, an AoE blast and two support powers. Let's say... Pistols, Dual Wield and Empty Clips (same as Masterminds) plus Targeting Drone and either Suppressive Fire or Superior Conditioning. I'd say that'd be enough to give the set some use without making it overpowered, while - and this is the most important part - let melee folks use Dual Pistols. Sure, they won't shoot the world full of holes, but this isn't necessary for the most part. Being able to pull out guns and throw out a few basic attacks would be enough for me.
I obviously want an Assault/Defence AT, but we're getting into the "I'd rather they do something else" type of argument which really isn't helpful in suggestions in general. I'd like to see a Pistols epic, a Rifle epic and a Bow epic.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'd love Buff/Melee as well|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'd personally rather the devs work on those new ATs and sell sell sell. With the new epic AT that's coming out, fill out the game's niches with 3 more basic ones:
Melee/(de)Buff Armor/Blast Pet/(Assault or something) |
Pet/Attack sounds good too
remove the upgrades add support powers and give the field commander ranged attacks
Can we just make this happen now? I'll gladly payout 800 points for the option if it includes a Hail of Bullets animation power (dont think it would do nuke level damage).
But after failing to get my DP/TM to do much of any damage, I could just take it as an Epic Power Pool for fun and concept!
Dual Wield
Executioner's Shot
Physical Perfection
Bullet Rain
Hail of Bullets
Five powers! 4 awesome animations and a passive (can replace that with Suppressive Shot if needed)...all lethal ammo type. TA DA!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection