Nope, defense without elusivity especially on a squishy is pretty much worthless.
PFF does provide some (I think) but outside of that you might as well be running around with 0. I can't remember the last squishy I've seen outside of PFF who I didn't have a 95% chance to hit.
It's worth noting that the Scorpion Shield gives 10% Elusivity to S/L/F/C/E/NE/Psi (That's why Mids says 70%)
Let's assume you have 50% defense (to any postiton or type), that's DRed to 18.7% defense.
If I'm a blaster with Tactics and kismet slotted, I've got about 17% tohit. Let's first calculate the tohit chance.
=Base+TohitBuff-Tohitdebuff-Defense
=50+17%-0-18.7%
=48.3% (if they had 0 accuracy)
They need a minimum of 96.6% acc to get 95% chance to hit, but that's without DR and without your elusivity. With your Elusivity, they would need 107.3 Acc -after- DR.
On mids they'd need a total of 137% acc in their attacks of slotting + global accuracy to have a 95% chance to hit with DR.
A glad jav set gives 66% accuracy, meaning they'd only need 71% acc in global bonuses.
Most have a lot more than that, and even if you put in tohit debuffs, that's not factoring Aim/Build up, other souces of +tohit, how -defense would take it all away and the fact that you'd be lucky if a squishy had an 80% chance to hit you (on a good build).
tl;dr With ranged: 50% defense+10% elusivity VS Kismet+tactics+71% acc global = 95% chance to hit
Defense is for melee types only.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
It's worth noting that the Scorpion Shield gives 10% Elusivity to S/L/F/C/E/NE/Psi (That's why Mids says 70%)
Let's assume you have 50% defense (to any postiton or type), that's DRed to 18.7% defense. If I'm a blaster with Tactics and kismet slotted, I've got about 17% tohit. Let's first calculate the tohit chance. =Base+TohitBuff-Tohitdebuff-Defense =50+17%-0-18.7% =48.3% (if they had 0 accuracy) They need a minimum of 96.6% acc to get 95% chance to hit, but that's without DR and without your elusivity. With your Elusivity, they would need 107.3 Acc -after- DR. On mids they'd need a total of 137% acc in their attacks of slotting + global accuracy to have a 95% chance to hit with DR. A glad jav set gives 66% accuracy, meaning they'd only need 71% acc in global bonuses. Most have a lot more than that, and even if you put in tohit debuffs, that's not factoring Aim/Build up, other souces of +tohit, how -defense would take it all away and the fact that you'd be lucky if a squishy had an 80% chance to hit you (on a good build). tl;dr With ranged: 50% defense+10% elusivity VS Kismet+tactics+71% acc global = 95% chance to hit Defense is for melee types only. |
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Worth noting: Blasters, Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators, and Masterminds all share the same DR parameters for defense DR (last I checked). Those parameters place an asymptotic limit on defense of about 21.22% defense to any type or position. *Nothing* can buff you higher in a PvP zone. 1000% defense buff, one billion percent defense buff, makes no difference. You will rise towards 21.22% defense and then level off.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
It's worth noting that the Scorpion Shield gives 10% Elusivity to S/L/F/C/E/NE/Psi (That's why Mids says 70%)
Let's assume you have 50% defense (to any postiton or type), that's DRed to 18.7% defense. If I'm a blaster with Tactics and kismet slotted, I've got about 17% tohit. Let's first calculate the tohit chance. =Base+TohitBuff-Tohitdebuff-Defense =50+17%-0-18.7% =48.3% (if they had 0 accuracy) They need a minimum of 96.6% acc to get 95% chance to hit, but that's without DR and without your elusivity. With your Elusivity, they would need 107.3 Acc -after- DR. On mids they'd need a total of 137% acc in their attacks of slotting + global accuracy to have a 95% chance to hit with DR. A glad jav set gives 66% accuracy, meaning they'd only need 71% acc in global bonuses. Most have a lot more than that, and even if you put in tohit debuffs, that's not factoring Aim/Build up, other souces of +tohit, how -defense would take it all away and the fact that you'd be lucky if a squishy had an 80% chance to hit you (on a good build). tl;dr With ranged: 50% defense+10% elusivity VS Kismet+tactics+71% acc global = 95% chance to hit Defense is for melee types only. |
Note: Mastermind pets are critters, not player archetypes, and thus are still so far as I know immune to DR.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
I can't remember the last squishy I've seen outside of PFF who I didn't have a 95% chance to hit.
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I made a post about this years ago. Afaik nothing has changed related to it, so the information still applies.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=196688
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While the point is in the right direction and it was over 2 years ago, the calculations in that are really inaccurate (even for the time). It doesn't DR accuracy at all. If ACC wasn't DRed, -all- defense would be useless everywhere, not just on ranged.|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
I made a post about this years ago. Afaik nothing has changed related to it, so the information still applies.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=196688 |
It adds on 0.75 accuracy which doesn't actually exist (On mids, the 75% is a PvE tohit base). Accuracy on powers are typically 1, and that -is- factored in already with normal ACC calculations. 15x acc on a power means the ACC is (1*0.15), and that's where the 1 is rooted. KoB would be (1.2*0.15) with it's higher base accuracy. It's worth noting that base accuracy isn't DRed, which is a nice bonus.
If I were to redo the first example equation from that post, it would look like...
Fort 45% def DRed to = 33% defense
An attack with 0.72x acc and 0.4x acc from bonuses. 1.12x ACC DRed to 0.918x ACC. With 100% base accuracy, it becomes 1.918x ACC. Elusivity of 0.1 knocks it down to (1.918*(1-0.1)) = 1.7262x ACC
If we assume slotted tactics, (5 adjusted targeting, minus the rech), tactics would give exactly 10.64% tohit, DRed to 9.2% tohit.
It would then be...
=(1.7262)*(50+9.2-33)
=45.23% chance to hit
That's quite the leap from the 72.24% chance to hit that was stated originally.
From then on, because all the information is based off of incorrect calculations, the rest isn't exactly accurate either.
Last note: I'm fairly certain that elusivity is applied without the base 1 ACC added, although if it does like Luxuns' original calculations did, then elusivity would be more powerful than I thought. I'll double check and edit this last part.
EDIT: I was wrong, Elusivity isn't part of the accuracy calculation. It's applied -with- the 1 ACC base added. The old tohit chance was 47.84%, now it's 45.23%. The change isn't major, but could be noticable.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Ok so I'm wanting to pimp up my FF Defender for zonal fun, nothing serious but i would like to survive long enough for it to actually be fun... and I have been thinking..
Whats the viability of Defense on a Fender in Zone, I would be using Dispersion Bubble, Weave, all io'd to max Ranged def and stacked with barrier.. heals will be from aidself and Dark blast, and PFF if needed. Would it be possible to get enough def on this toon to at least be noticed ?
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