The short answer is that it wasn't technically feasible. The Rikti Crash Site was basically just a level 50 hazard zone, like Boomtown or Crey's Folley or old Faultline. There wasn't much of a story to go with it. The crashed mothership was strictly window dressing.
Vanguard existed mainly in Sean Fish's head. The characters that would become the Vanguard actually made an appearance in the City of Heroes CCG, but they were not yet identified with the label "Vanguard" that I can remember. I might have to pull my old cards out to check the flavor text on that to be 100% sure.
The revamp into the Rikti War Zone was what established most of the current lore surrounding Vanguard and the Rikti presence beyond the already existing story arcs like The Organ Grinders. Omega clearance was the big reveal before the RWZ opened and that was more or less the pinnacle of Rikti story. Vanguard simply didn't enter into it except as a notation on the history timeline and a billboard or three scattered across the city.
*EDIT*
One notable thing, re: the Rikti - In Beta there was a mothership model that flew across the skies of the various city zones right at the end of beta. As far as I know, that model has never been seen in the live game. Nowadays, we have dropships. The mothership would be considered obsolete, but I've always felt like there ought to have been some event that brought the mothership down into the atmosphere to buzz the city.
Quote:
They were possibly still using their temporary shelter/base in Founders' Falls as a kind of outpost until their RWZ base was built.
|
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker
Question. Where was Vanguard from the time when the Rikti Mothership crashed into the White Plains and the construction of their base when the crash site was renamed a War Zone?
The ship was always there. The shield was up. Nothing was coming in nor out. So why weren't Vanguard scientists or local government there? If there was, in what way? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Vanguard did not "gear up" until the second invasion. Thus, they were there in the crash site but not obvious.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
What do you mean temporary shelter/base in ff?
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They were possibly still using their temporary shelter/base in Founders' Falls as a kind of outpost until their RWZ base was built.
|
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Quote:
I wonder if that would be generally accepted.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Vanguard did not "gear up" until the second invasion. Thus, they were there in the crash site but not obvious.
|
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Quote:
This is more or less where I'd lean towards on the matter. Various bits of incidental or glossed over lore imply that post-Rikti War the Vanguard fell back into a more lobbying/administrative/research role (See: The Herald Division of Vanguard; Incandescent. There might also be some tidbits in the official timeline and backgrounder about it.).|
Originally Posted by Venture
Vanguard did not "gear up" until the second invasion. Thus, they were there in the crash site but not obvious.
|
Also, the Crash Site was added during a time when actually putting a proper storyline into a zone wasn't a big priority. I think the fairest "reality" of the Crash Site was that it was devoid of a Rikti presence outside of the ship, which was entirely locked down by its forcefield and was thus carefully monitored by the Vanguard. I believe this is more or less what is said regarding the mothership either in-game or again in one of the official site's backgrounders. I also think it'd be fair to say that the Vanguard base always existed in some form.
(The billboards are possibly an Alpha stage CoH holdover, from back when there were a lot more "active" hero groups. Originally instead of individual contacts, you'd get missions from terminals belonging to various groups. It's likely the Vanguard (and the Midnight Squad) were to be some of the mission givers beyond the Freedom Phalanx.)
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
I would argue that likely what happened was... that while the crash occurred and there were those who would venture into the area the big problem of the RWZ, that the Rikti are forming a new portal and they are salvaging parts from the ship and using them elsewhere didn't occur right off the bat and as such they paid less attention to the whole thing. The Rikti likely wouldn't have started breaking up their ship and such right away because they are prideful and would have tried to either fix it or expected help and would have held out, waiting for reinforcements. Once that didn't happen, they started salvaging the ship and that lead to Vanguard taking serious notice as the RWZ would become a Beachhead and that isn't a good thing.
Quote:
Its a big pile of technology plus its probably filled with enemies. So they just ignored it and let the villains inside do anything with it, whether fixing the ship and get it working or stripping it?|
Originally Posted by Durakken
I would argue that likely what happened was... that while the crash occurred and there were those who would venture into the area the big problem of the RWZ, that the Rikti are forming a new portal and they are salvaging parts from the ship and using them elsewhere didn't occur right off the bat and as such they paid less attention to the whole thing. The Rikti likely wouldn't have started breaking up their ship and such right away because they are prideful and would have tried to either fix it or expected help and would have held out, waiting for reinforcements. Once that didn't happen, they started salvaging the ship and that lead to Vanguard taking serious notice as the RWZ would become a Beachhead and that isn't a good thing.
|
Does that mean when a bank robber goes into a bank and holds everyone hostage, police don't do what they can to either get the villains out and arrest them or go in there and arrest them?
If the robbers in the bank let all the hostages go but put up a force field around the bank, does that mean all the cops just go home until they start taking a part the bank?
I don't get the logic in no one doing anything about this giant ship that has all sorts of weapons and technology and dangers. If to take out the villains, preventing further attack to the city, they could get intel from captured enemies. Plus all the information in the computers and technology that could be used for other reasons.
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Quote:
I wish CoH would release more lore information for these reasons but it seems like what you are saying tends to be about the same thing, give or take, what other's I've spoken too about say.
|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
This is more or less where I'd lean towards on the matter. Various bits of incidental or glossed over lore imply that post-Rikti War the Vanguard fell back into a more lobbying/administrative/research role (See: The Herald Division of Vanguard; Incandescent. There might also be some tidbits in the official timeline and backgrounder about it.).
Also, the Crash Site was added during a time when actually putting a proper storyline into a zone wasn't a big priority. I think the fairest "reality" of the Crash Site was that it was devoid of a Rikti presence outside of the ship, which was entirely locked down by its forcefield and was thus carefully monitored by the Vanguard. I believe this is more or less what is said regarding the mothership either in-game or again in one of the official site's backgrounders. I also think it'd be fair to say that the Vanguard base always existed in some form. (The billboards are possibly an Alpha stage CoH holdover, from back when there were a lot more "active" hero groups. Originally instead of individual contacts, you'd get missions from terminals belonging to various groups. It's likely the Vanguard (and the Midnight Squad) were to be some of the mission givers beyond the Freedom Phalanx.) |
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Quote:
It's called triage... We have several problems. These problems need immediate attention, these problems are too far gone to matter whether I treat them or not, these problems are fine for now.|
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker
Its a big pile of technology plus its probably filled with enemies. So they just ignored it and let the villains inside do anything with it, whether fixing the ship and get it working or stripping it?
Does that mean when a bank robber goes into a bank and holds everyone hostage, police don't do what they can to either get the villains out and arrest them or go in there and arrest them? If the robbers in the bank let all the hostages go but put up a force field around the bank, does that mean all the cops just go home until they start taking a part the bank? I don't get the logic in no one doing anything about this giant ship that has all sorts of weapons and technology and dangers. If to take out the villains, preventing further attack to the city, they could get intel from captured enemies. Plus all the information in the computers and technology that could be used for other reasons. |
It could be that Vanguard didn't view that ship as a "This needs immediate attention" situation until they started trying to open a portal or distributing their tech.
I just always thought that it was retconned that it was like that from the beginning.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
This ^^^.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I just always thought that it was retconned that it was like that from the beginning.
|
The conversion from RCS to RWZ was a retcon, not a progression in the story like New Overbrook. If you like, it was the realization of what it should have been all along.
The problem in giving you the information that you seek is that it doesn't exist. We can all imagine all sorts of things but in the end, they're just our imaginings. Whether you're talking Cryptic or Paragon Studios, the company policy has pretty much always been to hand out only as much lore as the players needed to address whatever content was most recently added. They guard the rest pretty jealously so that they have as much leeway as possible in creating content or redefining the lore to fit their purposes.
If you want to see the RWZ conversion as a historical milestone, then it's simple enough to imagine that the ship in the RCS was quiescent and had been for a few years. Therefore, Vanguard had quarantined White Plains but otherwise left the policing of the area to the US military. Rikti sorties were still occuring all over the world; not just in Paragon City where we heroes encountered them. Vanguard focused its attention on dealing with those incursions.
When new activity was detected and the Dark Watcher suddenly reappeared with dire warnings and with the ability to "see" that they were re-opening the portal to their own dimension (perhaps the opening of that portal was an event linked to the Watcher's arrival on Primal Earth; a beacon that led him home), and then certain Rikti pacifists also appeared with warnings about an imminent offensive by the warmongers, they went into high gear and White Plains became priority number one.
However, as I said, it's all supposition. There's no official lore on the subject.
Quote:
I don't care if it's "accepted" or not, it's true. This was discussed when the RWZ opened. Vanguard didn't have all those wonderful toys during the first invasion; they were pretty much just an umbrella organization for supers. When the Alpha-Omega Gambit ended the invasion most of those supers went back to their own business but the core membership of Vanguard knew it wasn't over. They started preparing for the inevitable sequel and here we are.
| I wonder if that would be generally accepted. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
It's marked by a plaque - it's where they co-ordinated a lot of the defense of Paragon City during the first invasion.
|
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker
What do you mean temporary shelter/base in ff?
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Location of this plaque please. I'd like to read it. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's marked by a plaque - it's where they co-ordinated a lot of the defense of Paragon City during the first invasion.
|
Quote:
It says:|
Originally Posted by Indiramourning
Location of this plaque please. I'd like to read it.
|
Quote:
| "During the Rikti War, this dock was converted to an emergency shelter. One of the few places to survivie the initial bombing, the area became a haven for people with no homes to return to. It also became a coordination nexus for the Vanguard, an umbrella organization designed to coordinate super-powered responses to the Rikti invaders. Though the Vanguard was formed only after the invasion began, it quickly became the only group with any cohesion, as smaller Super Groups were decimated and destroyed. Many of the critical plans for the resistance were relayed through this station, including the fateful Alpha and Omega Gambit." |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Exactly, triage. A crashed rikti mothership is top of the list. It has everything and it high degree. 1. Tech, it has more tech centralized in one location more so than any other. 2. Threat. There are enemies there that could easily rally and setup an enemy beachhead. 3. Casualties. It crashed in a civilian area, not the bottom of the ocean. Lots of life all in that area, trapped people etc. Plus the danger to all life on earth if rikti are able to setup a stable stronghold. Its top of the list.
|
Originally Posted by Durakken
It's called triage... We have several problems. These problems need immediate attention, these problems are too far gone to matter whether I treat them or not, these problems are fine for now.
It could be that Vanguard didn't view that ship as a "This needs immediate attention" situation until they started trying to open a portal or distributing their tech. |
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Quote:
All good points. Since I've gotten some good responses all around, I'll just go ahead and ask this question.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
This ^^^.
The conversion from RCS to RWZ was a retcon, not a progression in the story like New Overbrook. If you like, it was the realization of what it should have been all along. The problem in giving you the information that you seek is that it doesn't exist. We can all imagine all sorts of things but in the end, they're just our imaginings. Whether you're talking Cryptic or Paragon Studios, the company policy has pretty much always been to hand out only as much lore as the players needed to address whatever content was most recently added. They guard the rest pretty jealously so that they have as much leeway as possible in creating content or redefining the lore to fit their purposes. If you want to see the RWZ conversion as a historical milestone, then it's simple enough to imagine that the ship in the RCS was quiescent and had been for a few years. Therefore, Vanguard had quarantined White Plains but otherwise left the policing of the area to the US military. Rikti sorties were still occuring all over the world; not just in Paragon City where we heroes encountered them. Vanguard focused its attention on dealing with those incursions. When new activity was detected and the Dark Watcher suddenly reappeared with dire warnings and with the ability to "see" that they were re-opening the portal to their own dimension (perhaps the opening of that portal was an event linked to the Watcher's arrival on Primal Earth; a beacon that led him home), and then certain Rikti pacifists also appeared with warnings about an imminent offensive by the warmongers, they went into high gear and White Plains became priority number one. However, as I said, it's all supposition. There's no official lore on the subject. |
From orbit, a rikti mothership begins a rapid decent into our atmosphere. It crosses over the east coast and crashes into the ocean. The ship remains intact. Obviously most governments, especially the US (since it passes right over them), would stop it. They inform Vanguard.
Question A, I would imagine it to be a joint effort between UN govs like the US and the UK and would show up with battle ships and aircraft carriers and vanguard ops would be with them on those ships and/or on their own copters and hovercrafts. Is that probable or based on known lore on Vanguard would they show up alone or would they wait for the respective UN governments to secure it, at least for the initial response?
If this ship was taken or owned by someone not of vanguard or the UN, how forcefull, based on their known lore, would they be to get the ship? Assume its either owned by another nation that refuses to turn it over to vanguard or a corporation like Crey?
Now, part two of this question is, now imagine it was actual aliens or those good pacifistic Rikti we have all heard about. They are't from earth, or at least not our earth. Obviously, based on any human history of any modern day government/society, Vanguard and those behind vanguard would want this huge piece of tech. So even if those inside aren't a threat, they aren't fully trusted. So do you think Vanguard would want it and if so, how forcefull based on lore do you think they would be with none wartype rikti or other aliens in charge/owning it?
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Quote:
Makes sense then that they were keeping an eye on it for/if rikti activity started, especially sinse they couldn't get passed the shields. I guess it throws me off because I' imagine the ship surrounded by tanks and governmental science type folks doing everything they can to get it for months, even years if they had to.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It says:
It's part of the Savant badge, and it's located near-ish to Hutchinson Park. |
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
A question was brought up to me by my fellow comic maker about Vanguard and I wasn't sure about the answer and I can't find it on Paragon Wiki so I thought I'd open it up here.
Point A. Before it became the Rikti War Zone, it was called the Rikti Crash Site.
Point B. Vanguard is the only UN sanctioned agency that is allowed to hold Rikti technology and then can give it out to research companies and such. If Rikti tech is found, its to be turned over to local governments and then given to Vanguard. I'm guessing they try and take it away from anyone who refuses to hand it over. Seems logical.
Question. Where was Vanguard from the time when the Rikti Mothership crashed into the White Plains and the construction of their base when the crash site was renamed a War Zone?
The ship was always there. The shield was up. Nothing was coming in nor out. So why weren't Vanguard scientists or local government there? If there was, in what way?
If you have any theories or knowledge of this, please share. I'm trying to find a good logical reason they didn't construct a base there sooner. Mainly because my comic book the Justice-Knights, has their base in a different crashed Rikti Mothership and I'll be having them deal wth Vanguard very soon. If you want to see my Rikti ship (current in orbit above paragon city), check out www.jkcomics.com for that and other comics.
Thank you.
-Sin
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,