While it could, it likely won't.
Since the pseudopet powers are the ones not affected by Domination, these would be the only ones you'd need to worry about. So each power where you replace the pseudopet would need a new pseudopet created (which is how the different Shield Charges/Lightning Rods/etc work), and this is something they could have done from the very beginning (similar to if Hidden <do this> and if not Hidden <do this> for Stalkers). Really, if they wanted to do it, they could have done it from the start but presumably it's a lot of work to go back and change them all now. Probably not as much as power customization, though. >.>
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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If they were to go down this path then powers that should be affected but don't, like Volcanic Gasses, should be made to call upon versions that are. Powers that wouldn't, such as Ice Slick or Quicksand, could have versions that grant larger debuffs, or buffs in the case of Spirit Tree. Pets could also get more powers if summoned under Domination, like Gremlins could get Charged Bolts.
However, this could bring the AT back under the territory of 'Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde'. You would get around complaints about how certain sets benefit more than others, though.
It would be nice but unlikely to ever happen.
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The thing is the different versions of Shield Charge, etc. have been assigned to different AT's, each power called a different version of the pet because they were different powers. We've even seen different AT's calling on the same version of the pet, like Freezing Rain, for instance. There has been an aversion to creating multiple copies of a power even for the sake of compensating for AT modifiers. However, that may be changing.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
While it could, it likely won't.
Since the pseudopet powers are the ones not affected by Domination, these would be the only ones you'd need to worry about. So each power where you replace the pseudopet would need a new pseudopet created (which is how the different Shield Charges/Lightning Rods/etc work), and this is something they could have done from the very beginning (similar to if Hidden <do this> and if not Hidden <do this> for Stalkers). Really, if they wanted to do it, they could have done it from the start but presumably it's a lot of work to go back and change them all now. Probably not as much as power customization, though. >.> |
Perhaps I am assuming too much, but it seems that TW and the new Assassin Strike are not using modified conditions on existing powers as Domination does. They seem to be calling powers with different values and animations... at least that's what I'm speculating. Before I go on making more wild speculations, I'll have to see if I can get that question answered.
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As far as I can tell, that's the case since it redirects to a different power but does it with a line item clause on activation that's checked before it even assigns animations and whatnot; here are a couple of line items taken from Defensive Sweep for Brutes:|
Originally Posted by ketch
The thing is the different versions of Shield Charge, etc. have been assigned to different AT's, each power called a different version of the pet because they were different powers. We've even seen different AT's calling on the same version of the pet, like Freezing Rain, for instance. There has been an aversion to creating multiple copies of a power even for the sake of compensating for AT modifiers. However, that may be changing.
Perhaps I am assuming too much, but it seems that TW and the new Assassin Strike are not using modified conditions on existing powers as Domination does. They seem to be calling powers with different values and animations... at least that's what I'm speculating. Before I go on making more wild speculations, I'll have to see if I can get that question answered. |
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Originally Posted by City of Data
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Right now, the old restrictions on what Domination could and could not do lead to a paradigm where the sets do not benefit from Domination equally; everyone can benefit from permadom, but not everyone gets the same multiplication effect out of it, and instead gets better overall controls in the mean time.
This may have not been the intended design, but it is a good design and should be kept. Just because we can change it - if we can - does not mean we should.
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I'd have to disagree. While variance is good thing, I feel there's a significant performance gap between the sets that benefit from the higher magnitude and mez protection and those that come away with mostly just mez protection. Wouldn't it be poor design if, for example, one Scrapper primary was able to crit with much more consistency than another? Don't people often raise this issue with Defenders' Vigilance? The key feature of the AT should function consistently across all sets. The fact that some sets benefit from it very little, Ice Control for example, to me is poor design.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Right now, the old restrictions on what Domination could and could not do lead to a paradigm where the sets do not benefit from Domination equally; everyone can benefit from permadom, but not everyone gets the same multiplication effect out of it, and instead gets better overall controls in the mean time.
This may have not been the intended design, but it is a good design and should be kept. Just because we can change it - if we can - does not mean we should. |
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The power itself also has an extra flag set on it to tell the game that the power uses redirection and it needs to check the effects before activating the power. It's possible that other attributes of the power may be able to be changed on the fly that way also, such as endurance cost, range, target type (actually I know for a fact this one is possible -- look for a temp power in the spring that can be used on friend or foe and has different effects), or possibly even the icon, but how exactly the engine handles it is still unknown.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
As far as I can tell, that's the case since it redirects to a different power but does it with a line item clause on activation that's checked before it even assigns animations and whatnot; here are a couple of line items taken from Defensive Sweep for Brutes:
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City of Data doesn't (yet) handle PowerRedirect completely correct -- on the linked page it uses the wrong modifier tables for damage numbers for instance. In the future it will show a dropdown box to allow you to select the different verisons of the power and view them in place.
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| Since the powers are handled via pseudopets, they would still be handled that way. It would be along the lines of (using Static Field as an example): |
In theory, even chain-pets like Electric Control uses could pass along the information that way. They'd just need an autopower with an effect that used a magnitude expression:
(source.owner.kStealth) Stealth on Self for 10s [Replace stacking mode]
To set their own Stealth value equal to that of their creator. The only catch is that the psuedopet would have to be designed to outlive any other pets it spawned so that they could refer to their owner to find out if Domination was active, but with a long enough activate period that would be doable. All without having to create a jillion different pets.
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Fair enough, thanks for the explanations. |
Originally Posted by Codewalker
The power itself also has an extra flag set on it to tell the game that the power uses redirection and it needs to check the effects before activating the power. It's possible that other attributes of the power may be able to be changed on the fly that way also, such as endurance cost, range, target type (actually I know for a fact this one is possible -- look for a temp power in the spring that can be used on friend or foe and has different effects), or possibly even the icon, but how exactly the engine handles it is still unknown.
City of Data doesn't (yet) handle PowerRedirect completely correct -- on the linked page it uses the wrong modifier tables for damage numbers for instance. In the future it will show a dropdown box to allow you to select the different verisons of the power and view them in place. It would be quite possible to do it that way, but it's not even necessary anymore. At some point pets grew the capability to reference properties of their owner. See the implementation of Spring Attack which uses this to simulate AT modifiers despite being a pseudopet. In theory, even chain-pets like Electric Control uses could pass along the information that way. They'd just need an autopower with an effect that used a magnitude expression: (source.owner.kStealth) Stealth on Self for 10s [Replace stacking mode] To set their own Stealth value equal to that of their creator. The only catch is that the psuedopet would have to be designed to outlive any other pets it spawned so that they could refer to their owner to find out if Domination was active, but with a long enough activate period that would be doable. All without having to create a jillion different pets. |
I was just thinking that the redirection was completely unnecessary in the first place, and while it may be able to pull the owner's AT (which Spring Attack does) the kStealth may be hidden or inaccessible.I would have thought that the size of the team was something that was a simple lookup, but when I brought it up asking about just using it rather than the 30' radius for increased Stalker criticals I was informed that there isn't a way to look it up directly, and such a thing would have to check all entities on the map to see if they were on the Stalker's team (
!!) - something that I was not expecting at all and isn't remotely close to the most efficient way of doing it. So things that I thought should be simple just sometimes are way out of whack with how you would expect them to work.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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If you feel that Earth and Elec are weak sets then I guess we just have no common ground in this conversation.
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Originally Posted by ketch
I'd have to disagree. While variance is good thing, I feel there's a significant performance gap between the sets that benefit from the higher magnitude and mez protection and those that come away with mostly just mez protection.
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And also whether or not source.owner> can be used in mag expressions or not. I'd assume it uses the same evaluator as it does for Requires, but until we actually see it used there's no guarantee. Even if it does, it could still be accomplished with separate pets. There's often many ways to skin cats with the powers system... *blinks, looks at Siolfir's avatar* Errr, no offense. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Fair enough, thanks for the explanations.
I was just thinking that the redirection was completely unnecessary in the first place, and while it may be able to pull the owner's AT (which Spring Attack does) the kStealth may be hidden or inaccessible. |
But yes, you're right that power redirection would be completely redundant to use in this case. It's only necessary if the base attributes of the power need to be different, as the effects themselves already have quite a lot of things that can be done conditionally.
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I would have thought that the size of the team was something that was a simple lookup, but when I brought it up asking about just using it rather than the 30' radius for increased Stalker criticals I was informed that there isn't a way to look it up directly, and such a thing would have to check all entities on the map to see if they were on the Stalker's team (!!) - something that I was not expecting at all and isn't remotely close to the most efficient way of doing it. So things that I thought should be simple just sometimes are way out of whack with how you would expect them to work.
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I have no doubt that it checks all entities in its range (0 = infinite?), but it apparently isn't that much of a performance hit.
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Hm... I hadn't looked at how they did it for Vigilance, but I had checked Domination. It just checks for teammates within 300' every 10 seconds. And I guess that the parameter in the source.TeamSize call is the radius to check with 0 being "everything on the map" as well, since it's the same signature that's used in the Stalker line items. Since 0 seems to be a special case, I wonder if it actually does the variable lookup that I expected rather than looping through the whole map and counting entities that are teamed. You'd think the worst case on that would be O(n) where n is the number of people on the team, not on the map.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
Strange you were told that, since AFAICT that's exactly what Defender Vigilance does for the damage buff, once per second.
I have no doubt that it checks all entities in its range (0 = infinite?), but it apparently isn't that much of a performance hit. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Earth? No. It benefits from Domination with its spawn to spawn control, and fortunately has enough other control to layer if that happens to be down. Electric? It's a good control set, but it performs pretty much the same as it does for a controller. But these two do provide a good example of the difference. Both are good control sets, but as a Dominator set Earth fairs much better.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
If you feel that Earth and Elec are weak sets then I guess we just have no common ground in this conversation.
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So...
When discussing permadom'd dominators...
... who don't use Earthquake...
... who need mag 6 AOE control every spawn but clearly not to lock down multiple bosses, since elec can do that without domination...
... who are also being directly compared to other dominators...
Yeah, filing this under non-issue.
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First, let's dismiss this notion that the discussion is limited to permadoms. While permadom highlights some of the disparities, the problem exists outside of realm of permadom. Two control sets that begin with a similar baseline of performance, one with a frequent Domination boosted control and one without, are going to have a performance disparity. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
So...
When discussing permadom'd dominators... ... who don't use Earthquake... ... who need mag 6 AOE control every spawn but clearly not to lock down multiple bosses, since elec can do that without domination... ... who are also being directly compared to other dominators... Yeah, filing this under non-issue. |
Secondly, it's not a matter of needing a mag 6 AoE control every spawn that is the issue. It's the fact that for some sets this is a possibility and for others a pipe dream. For instance, I have a perma-Earth/Fire/Ice which I frequently run through the Lambda trial. I don't need Earthquake, though I frequently use it for an extra degree of safety, because the 25 seconds it takes for Stalagmites to recharge is enough to mez the mob, destroy the crate or container, and move to the next mob. An Electric dom is going to require more tools and time to drain the mobs to reach that same level of mitigation, and be at considerably more risk in the process.
But this goes back to the question I asked in my original post:
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| If it's possible what other powers could benefit from this? Should it be limited to only mezzes (holds, confuses, etc.) or should other controls such as Ice Slick and Earthquake also be given a variant with additional/stronger effects? |
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If we do that, we dismiss the entire issue. The nature of this complaint is only relevant when a player has only the domination-driven version of the powerset; if there are no valleys, then the higher valleys of the less-domination-driven powersets are actually hypothetically a problem.
| First, let's dismiss this notion that the discussion is limited to permadoms. |
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
If we do that, we dismiss the entire issue. The nature of this complaint is only relevant when a player has only the domination-driven version of the powerset; if there are no valleys, then the higher valleys of the less-domination-driven powersets are actually hypothetically a problem.
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Not really. It just means the bottom level of performance is the similar. The peak level is still different.
What really kind of blows about [addendum: many, not all]powers that don't benefit from Domination is they get hit twice. Not only do they not get extra magnitude, they are permanently stuck with a Dominator's lower duration than a Controller.
With some of the new mechanics popping up in the game I am wondering if it would be possible to expand Domination to affect powers it previously did not. Titan Weapons and the proposed Assassin's Strike changes both use a mechanic which calls upon a different version of the power to be executed (powers with shorter activations in TW's case and an uninterruptable Assassin's strike outside of hide for Stalkers) if certain conditions are met. For instance, could Domination set a marker to call a different version of Synaptic Overload that has a mag 4 confuse throughout the chain rather than the current version which is only affected by Domination on the initial target?
If it's possible what other powers could benefit from this? Should it be limited to only mezzes (holds, confuses, etc.) or should other controls such as Ice Slick and Earthquake also be given a variant with additional/stronger effects?