Reduce the Price for Low and Mid Level TOs/DOs/SOs
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-11-03 13:02 in Suggestions and Ideas
Have they even adjusted the prices over all the times they adjusted XP so that leveling went by smoother/faster? If not, then it's long overdue.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
agreed
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This is a good point. I'm not sure what the answer is although as a data point the last time that prices were adjusted on the Wiki was June 2007.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Have they even adjusted the prices over all the times they adjusted XP so that leveling went by smoother/faster? If not, then it's long overdue.
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Enhancement_Prices
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On the other hand many of us played (and paid) for years before things like the market or salvage even existed in the game. It's not "needlessly" difficult to get Influence without those things - I did it well enough for years. Just making the point that it's far from impossible to play that way. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Setting up a situation where Free Players have trouble buying even basic "gear" seems to me to be a very poor way of encouraging them to stick around. It gives a perception that the game is needlessly difficult.
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Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
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--{=====> Virtue ♀
A small reduction may be in order, but it shouldn't be so low that a free player should be given enough influence just from kills that they can always afford the best enhancements for their level. If they do that, then they might as well not allow free players to earn inf and just give away the DOs and SOs for free when you need them.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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One thing to keep in mind is that, as Tenzhi mentioned the XP per level has been reduced since then which makes the situation worse. Additionally completing story arcs and task forces used to award an SO which made getting them easier but since the introduction of merit rewards this is no longer the case. For VIPs this isn't an issue since they can, if they desire, spend the merits on SOs which will generally give them at least one SO per arc but this is not an option for free players. So overall Free players have even less ability to earn enhancements than a pre-market subscriber.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
On the other hand many of us played (and paid) for years before things like the market or salvage even existed in the game. It's not "needlessly" difficult to get Influence without those things - I did it well enough for years. Just making the point that it's far from impossible to play that way.
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I'll also add that the "needlessly difficult" comment was about playing with sub-powered enhancements, not getting influence.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
A small reduction may be in order, but it shouldn't be so low that a free player should be given enough influence just from kills that they can always afford the best enhancements for their level. If they do that, then they might as well not allow free players to earn inf and just give away the DOs and SOs for free when you need them.
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To me what it really comes down to is that a person playing the game relatively normally should be able to afford basic gear without to much difficulty.
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Sure, I can buy that.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
A small reduction may be in order, but it shouldn't be so low that a free player should be given enough influence just from kills that they can always afford the best enhancements for their level.
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...but ever since i9, DOs and SOs aren't "the best enhancements for their level".
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Well then you're going to have to define what is "too much difficulty." I know that I never felt that it was all that hard to afford SOs at level 22 and 27 if you took even rudimentary steps to make sure you were in a good place, and that was back before the market was even around. The XP smoothing may have affected this a bit, which is why small reductions may be in order. But if a new player expects to be able to buy everything they want with absolutely no effort on their part, why should the game allow that?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Why not? This is a game which has always prided itself on the fact that it isn't a gear chase. You only need basic vendor gear and such gear is readily available. To be honest I'd have absolutely no problem if the game started giving out free basic enhancements on demand for all characters (except for the possible inflationary effects of doing so) although I can see arguments against it from a player attitudes point of view. To me what it really comes down to is that a person playing the game relatively normally should be able to afford basic gear without to much difficulty. |
SOs are not all that expensive if you plan ahead. And new players shouldn't just be handed everything just because they're new and we think it will drive them away if they don't get SOs for free. I know that I never felt like quitting because of SO costs...and it actually made me feel more like I earned it once I could get the influence to buy the enhancements I needed.
The game needs to tread a fine line between making it too difficult and too hard to buy enhancements for free players. Make it too difficult, and they quit. Make it too easy, and they get bored, and then quit as well. Making it so that influence is basically meaningless since they can afford anything they want from level 1 up makes it too easy, and likely won't keep them anymore than if you made the prices sky-high for anyone but VIPs to afford.
I think that this thread and the player questions one along the same line don't give new, free players enough credit for being willing to work for stuff and expecting that they might have to put some effort in if they want better stuff. Even in this game, which really has been about a "gear chase" for quite some time now, just in different ways than other games. You've had people chasing SOs, then Hami-Os, and now Invention sets. Working for those things isn't a penalty.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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At many levels, even-level SOs and DOs are still better than same-level basic IOs. But perhaps I should have phrased it as, "the best enhancements they can get at their level," since they can't make use of IOs as free players.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Sure, I can buy that.
...but ever since i9, DOs and SOs aren't "the best enhancements for their level". |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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See, that's the thing. I have no problem with it being a "gear chase" for higher end stuff. IOs, HOs, heck even +3 SOs should require a decent investment of time to achieve. It's when the cost to maintain the basic gear outstrips the rate you earn it while leveling that I see a problem.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I think that this thread and the player questions one along the same line don't give new, free players enough credit for being willing to work for stuff and expecting that they might have to put some effort in if they want better stuff. Even in this game, which really has been about a "gear chase" for quite some time now, just in different ways than other games. You've had people chasing SOs, then Hami-Os, and now Invention sets. Working for those things isn't a penalty.
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I'm not saying that a free player shouldn't need to earn SOs but they should be able to afford enough SOs to fill their slots without needing to resort to using debt or XP locking to farm influence.
Another option I'd suggest to help soften the impact would be the reintroduction of enhancement rewards for story arcs and task forces for anyone who isn't a VIP or Tier 4 Premium. Basically if you can't earn merit rewards for task completion you should at least get an SO instead.
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There are other ways to increase influence gain to help with the purchase of enhancements other than debt or XP-locking. They've been discussed in the other thread several times. But you really can play the game, and with a few smart decisions, can afford a full set of SOs at level 22. Using respecs at key levels after that can make buying the next set of SOs very cheap. For instance, if you respec at level 27/28, you can sell the level 25 SOs back at full price, and combined with the influence you've earned from level 22-27/28 will get you a full set of new enhancements (and likely you'll have some left over). Then by the time you hit 32, you should have more than enough to buy level 35 SOs.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
See, that's the thing. I have no problem with it being a "gear chase" for higher end stuff. IOs, HOs, heck even +3 SOs should require a decent investment of time to achieve. It's when the cost to maintain the basic gear outstrips the rate you earn it while leveling that I see a problem.
I'm not saying that a free player shouldn't need to earn SOs but they should be able to afford enough SOs to fill their slots without needing to resort to using debt or XP locking to farm influence. Another option I'd suggest to help soften the impact would be the reintroduction of enhancement rewards for story arcs and task forces for anyone who isn't a VIP or Tier 4 Premium. Basically if you can't earn merit rewards for task completion you should at least get an SO instead. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
In a related suggestion: either bring the cost of the enhancements sold by Contacts in line with regular stores or remove them from the Contacts' stores all together.
(I'm still bitter about all the years I was gouged because they were the only source for pre-level 30s non-Power-10 enhancements!)
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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Now THAT I can definitely get behind. For new players who see that contacts sell enhancements, they're not going to know that they're getting MASSIVELY ripped off.
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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
In a related suggestion: either bring the cost of the enhancements sold by Contacts in line with regular stores or remove them from the Contacts' stores all together.
(I'm still bitter about all the years I was gouged because they were the only source for pre-level 30s non-Power-10 enhancements!) |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Honestly, this is (again) not something I can agree with. Respecs in this game are, for most players, a finite resource. We are talking here about players without market access which means they really only have the 3 Trial Respecs plus the occasional freespec (no vetspecs and no crafting respecs) telling a player that in order to afford the basic level of gear they should use up one of their limited respecs seems to me like a very poor idea. If the TV trial gave unlimited respecs I wouldn't object but with only a few respecs available I think that's a bad strategy.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
There are other ways to increase influence gain to help with the purchase of enhancements other than debt or XP-locking. They've been discussed in the other thread several times. But you really can play the game, and with a few smart decisions, can afford a full set of SOs at level 22. Using respecs at key levels after that can make buying the next set of SOs very cheap. For instance, if you respec at level 27/28, you can sell the level 25 SOs back at full price, and combined with the influence you've earned from level 22-27/28 will get you a full set of new enhancements (and likely you'll have some left over). Then by the time you hit 32, you should have more than enough to buy level 35 SOs.
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The last time I tried this was when COV launched and my new villains had to fend for themselves. XP couldn't be turned off then, so I spent a lot of time exemplared running the Tarikoss SF. I must have ran it a couple of dozen times and I still could not afford to outfit myself completely with SOs before deciding to let it go and move on. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
There are other ways to increase influence gain to help with the purchase of enhancements other than debt or XP-locking. They've been discussed in the other thread several times. But you really can play the game, and with a few smart decisions, can afford a full set of SOs at level 22. Using respecs at key levels after that can make buying the next set of SOs very cheap. For instance, if you respec at level 27/28, you can sell the level 25 SOs back at full price, and combined with the influence you've earned from level 22-27/28 will get you a full set of new enhancements (and likely you'll have some left over). Then by the time you hit 32, you should have more than enough to buy level 35 SOs.
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Now with even random junk enhancement drops removed, I really don't see how you can say that even an experienced player, let alone a brand new player, can make enough for to afford SOs at level 22 without stopping XP or getting into the Invention system to sell its drops.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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A brand new player is likely going to need to respec at some point anyways. Saving the respec for a level where they need to buy new enhancements anyways is just being frugal, since it makes the most for the respec. Let's say that a brand new player needs a respec, and they run the trial right at level 24. With a full team, they may be level 25 when they get out. Thus, all they really need to do is wait two levels before performing the respec.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Honestly, this is (again) not something I can agree with. Respecs in this game are, for most players, a finite resource. We are talking here about players without market access which means they really only have the 3 Trial Respecs plus the occasional freespec (no vetspecs and no crafting respecs) telling a player that in order to afford the basic level of gear they should use up one of their limited respecs seems to me like a very poor idea. If the TV trial gave unlimited respecs I wouldn't object but with only a few respecs available I think that's a bad strategy.
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Now, if they are a more knowledgeable free player, who will plan out their build ahead of time, then they likely won't need many respecs to get their build right anyways, so using the respec in this way will just help them afford stuff they were going to do anyways.
So really, I don't view this as them burning a respec, just making better use of it.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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If you want, with my next new character, I will level him up to 22 without going to the market or selling any invention salvage that I get. I will still sell smart, though, as that is a tool that new players will have. And then I can report back on how well I did, and see if I was able to fully slot the character with SOs (or I'd say 90% slot the character out is still pretty decent). If I can do that, will you still suggest that it can't be done?
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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
The last time I tried this was when COV launched and my new villains had to fend for themselves. XP couldn't be turned off then, so I spent a lot of time exemplared running the Tarikoss SF. I must have ran it a couple of dozen times and I still could not afford to outfit myself completely with SOs before deciding to let it go and move on.
Now with even random junk enhancement drops removed, I really don't see how you can say that even an experienced player, let alone a brand new player, can make enough for to afford SOs at level 22 without stopping XP or getting into the Invention system to sell its drops. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Yes things have changed in this game over the last 7.5 years. But I would argue that back during the days prior to the market, salvage and merits it was still relatively challenging to keep all your enhancements completely up-to-date while you were leveling. I'm not convinced that today's new F2P player has it any worse than we did back in the beginning or that they need any special help here.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So overall Free players have even less ability to earn enhancements than a pre-market subscriber.
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This game was never balanced with the expectation that having fully up-to-date enhancements at any level was to be an automatic achievement that we were supposed to take for granted. Part of what made this game interesting for me in the beginning was the very fact that it was relatively difficult and challenging to prioritize my enhancement slotting because there were times when I couldn't afford everything I needed. As Aett_Thorn implied if this system had been made trivial in this regard then that would have actually removed an aspect of this game that I found enjoyable to have to "figure out" on my own.
Besides it's fairly clear to me that the Devs are never going to make the F2P mode of this game terribly easy to play because the system is designed to motivate people to become VIP players. Why would the game go out of its way to "encourage" players to remain F2P?
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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There's a line there however. Make it to hard and they quit in frustration and tell all of their friends. While F2P games rely on people deciding to spend money the converse is that if the free portion is to frustrating people quit before they decide to spend money. I consider "able to acquire basic gear without spending real money" to be a core requirement for any Free to play game. If I feel I can't do that I'm not going to play the game long enough to decide if it's worth spending real money on.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Besides it's fairly clear to me that the Devs are never going to make the F2P mode of this game terribly easy to play because the system is designed to motivate people to become VIP players. Why would the game go out of its way to "encourage" players to remain F2P?
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But being fully SO'ed isn't really 'basic gear', some SOs and the rest DOs will do fine for the most part.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Sure, give it a shot. Will you be buying level appropriate TOs and DOs or just going bare and using drops until 22? Like I said, I haven't gone the poverty route in a long while, but after reminiscing about it a bit now, I'd be surprised if you can buy more than 8 SOs at level 22. Purchased SO from Talos or IP, I'm not counting lucky drops or AV rewards, or purchased from Mr Yin's shop.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
If you want, with my next new character, I will level him up to 22 without going to the market or selling any invention salvage that I get. I will still sell smart, though, as that is a tool that new players will have. And then I can report back on how well I did, and see if I was able to fully slot the character with SOs (or I'd say 90% slot the character out is still pretty decent). If I can do that, will you still suggest that it can't be done?
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Editted typo.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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But what is the definition of "basic gear"?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
There's a line there however. Make it to hard and they quit in frustration and tell all of their friends. While F2P games rely on people deciding to spend money the converse is that if the free portion is to frustrating people quit before they decide to spend money. I consider "able to acquire basic gear without spending real money" to be a core requirement for any Free to play game. If I feel I can't do that I'm not going to play the game long enough to decide if it's worth spending real money on.
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Quite honestly, that definition for most of the experienced population of the game might be a progression from TOs until level 12, then DOs until 22, then SOs. However, that doesn't mean that it's THE definition. Because you can use TOs until 22, then DOs until 32, and then SOs after that. Depending on how much you team, you may not notice much difference in leveling speed.
I think that's my main issue here. A lot of the older players have come to believe that you need to completely SO-out your character at level 22 to have a fighting chance at survival and leveling. But that's simply not true.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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How do you figure that? I was a brand new player once, back in 2004, and I never met with a mistake that couldn't be fixed by gaining a level or two. The first time I used a respec EVER was post I6 when I had to fix my slotting for ED. Expecting new players to mess up and thus burn a respec just to get their enhancements is not a safe bet. What happens if they DON'T need one? Do they burn one anyway?|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
A brand new player is likely going to need to respec at some point anyways.
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Before Inventions, I have never, not ever, not a single time, been able to afford even half my SOs by the time I hit level 22. Every single time I'd spend the entirety of 17-22 in permanent debt just so that I'm not so monumentally ****** when I get to level 22 and can only buy around half the enhancements I need, watching the others go red and being stuck on an endless treadmill of trying to catch up before I got to the next round of enhancements and my new-found purchases turned red, themselves. And it's even worse now because Trainings and then Dual Origins stop dropping from enemies after a certain point.
If you want enhancements to be "work," then they shouldn't expire. Inventions don't, but Free accounts don't have access to those.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It depends on what criteria you want me to use. However, I would say that considering the advice I've seen in these types of threads, the prevailing advice is that new players not even bother slotting TOs, and just selling them. Now, for me, my usual path is to sell any TO that I get, slot any dropped DOs that I can use, and save my influence for SOs at level 22, depending on the character's needs (for instance, I may buy a few Acc DOs depending on the character). |
Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
Sure, give it a shot. Will you be buying level appropriate TOs and DOs or just going bare and using drops until 22? Like I said, I haven't gone the poverty route in a long while, but after reminiscing about it a bit now, I'd be surprised if you can buy more than 8 SOs at level 22. Purchased SO from Talos or IP, I'm not counting lucky drops or AV rewards, or purchased from Mr Yin's shop.
Editted typo. |
I would likely stick to that path, as I think it's playing smart, but if you want me to take a different path, I can try that, too. But if the test is whether or not a smart* new player can afford to mostly SO-out their character at level 22, I'd think that would be how you'd go.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Given the change to Freedom I think it would be a good idea to review the prices for low level normal enhancements (basically level 30 and below). When leveling a character using only inf drops it is very difficult to get enough influence to keep enhancements current. This isn't a significant issue for VIP or moderate rank premium players since they have lots of tools available to them to generate inf for enhancements (even without needing to mail inf from a high level alt). Simply selling salvage on the market is often enough and even without that trading Merits or AE Tickets provides a relatively easy way to get enhancements without spending inf. The problem is that for a free player none of these options are available, unless they can find a kind player to email them some inf their only source of inf are regular drops.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that someone relying solely on drops will have a hard time affording enhancements until the mid-30s so I suggest reducing the cost of enhancements below that level to make it easier. Setting up a situation where Free Players have trouble buying even basic "gear" seems to me to be a very poor way of encouraging them to stick around. It gives a perception that the game is needlessly difficult.