Stalkers: -HP?

For those who haven't seen yet, there's a new interface branch for incarnate powers:

Testing has suggested that the effect is completely worthless. The amounts of -hp provided are miniscule and the effect on regeneration are negligible. Additionally, I don't think it does bypass resistances.

However, that is all commentary on the existing implementation. If we assume they give some useful amounts of -max hp, say 300 points at level 50. You're looking at a change in hp/sec on an AV of what? 4hp/sec for 10 seconds (and I doubt they'd let it last that long)? And on anything but an AV it will be dead before regen matters.

I can't see any value they would actually give us, where the end result is better than a damage proc.

I like that it is a novel idea, and as you say it has some interesting side effects, but I'm not sure there's a good balance point for it where it works better than plain vanilla damage.

A fixed amount would have limited use indeed ; due to the large differences in HP totals between minions and giant monsters, to pick both ends of the spectrum, either it's useless or overpowered ; but percentages could be much more interesting.

Speaking as someone who *doesn't* play stalkers, implemented well this could be something that would make me play them. Tankers got a perma -20% res unaffected by the purple patch, I see no reasons Stalkers can't get a -10% maxHP or something on their signature ability.

I was thinking something percentage based.

Back when Castle tried a percentage-based damage scale on Assassin Strike, It led to problems as it was incredible on 'HUGE HP" foes like AV's and GM's, but pretty bad against things like lieutenants and bosses, much less minions. This is taking that damage scale idea and tweaking it, by having the weakening effect not actually be damage at all, just 'total HP subtraction' alongside the usual damage.

It also bypasses one of the problems encountered by the aforementioned damage scaling AS, namely that stalkers could take out incredibly tough foes far faster than any dev wanted. A -Max HP ability is odd in that it isn't REAL damage, and is temporary; as such if you do not kill the target, that HP is restored, so the net effect on AV's/GM's is only lessened regeneration. (As that's the only value that scaled to their health.) Damage itself doesn't scale, as if you do 9000 damage to a target that has its health cut from 15000 hp to 13500 hp, it's still just 9000 points of damage down when it goes to full health again.

I can think of two ways to use this idea- have small amounts of -max hp in all attacks, or center it all in a set, unstackable (from the same stalker) value in assassin strike. I prefer the latter as spreading it around means the devs have to set it down for the 'best case' scenario, and having it as one set big value means it has more 'oomph,' and though it may be more binary, it works with the idea of an assassin strike being a sudden, deadly power.

Hmmm....the other problem with the earlier mentioned 'HP scale damage' on assasin strike was that if a strike did 10% of a target's health, 8 stalkers could take a GM down to 20% health in seconds. If the value were as high as, say -10% max total hp, but calculated not off of the base max HP, but the total current max HP, it gives a nice scalability to the value. The first assasin strike takes a 1000 hp target down to 900 hp, but a second takes it from 900 to 810, a third from 810 to 729, and so on. This way you don't have a full stalker team making that 1000 hp target to 200 hp- it gives it a diminishing returns value of sorts, though as it's done alongside normal damage, the diminishing values don't disrupt normal performance.

Anyone foresee any huge hangups with this?

the only other hangup I see then would be the duration, and what happens when it wears off?

Is it like illusion damage where you heal instantly? If so, that would really suck. Let's take nihili's suggestion and your worst-case scenario.

8 stalkers hit a 100k hp GM or AV. It now has 20k hp. and something in the realm of 5-10k damage (depending on resists and damage types). Let's say the -hp debuff lasts 20 seconds. If the stalkers can't deal that last ~15k of damage fast enough, does it heal back to 80k or does it remain at 3k with /hps based on 100k hp?

Even with your scaling damage, that's dropping him to 43k hp (If my math is right, not sure I suck at math) with 5-10k damage. Again, what happens when the buff ends?

Because as I see it, if it heals back, then I'm not sure I'd like the power. It would cause all kinds of confusion. If it doesn't, I think either version is going to be seen as too powerful. But hey, it surely is an interesting one to think through.

for the record, I'd not like it limited to AS. Stalkers are not just AS machines.

I was thinking much like Bruising, it could eventually be set to not stack, even from different users ; but that diminishing return idea is nice too.

Truth be told... Even if it did stack without diminishing returns, in an ideal world shouldn't stalkers be the prime choice among meleers for dealing damage against AVs and GMs, seeing as they can't hold aggro, have less survivability and generally less AoE?

We can look at a hypothetical team of 8 stalkers reducing a GM to 20% HP, and just as well we can look at a not-so-hypothetical team of 8 defenders reducing a GM to 0% regen, floored tohit, -90% damage and -240% resistance ; and we can easily push that -res to -400% with specific primaries or secondaries, at which point the -res alone is essentially the same as putting the GM to 25% HP, while also halting its regen completely and having all the other aforementioned benefits. Those defenders also don't need to use an interruptible power and can just toggle/click their abilities at will, at range, and often buffing their own +damage to ludicrous levels.

I'm not necessarily saying stacking stalkers need to be as overpowered as stacking buffs/debuffs is, mainly I want to say I feel there is ample room to make stalkers extremely useful during AV/GM fights without making them the top dog (and they could arguably deserve to be the best at this considering their shortcomings in other areas).

Gavin - as I understand it (it didn't always use to be this way, and I'm not sure when it was changed), your current HP is adjusted to your maxHP. You can see it with player +HP boosts like Dull Pain, whenever it wears off your HP bar doesn't move at all. So I'm assuming in your example the 3k hp would scale back up to 15k hp, but again, I don't know much about max HP debuffs on critters.

Funny, I was going to post a thread about this new -HP component. I haven't tested it but the Max. -HP effect should fit well with Assassin Strike and critical effects. The mobs that you can't kill with one hit, should have reduced -HP so it's easier to finish off.

That's a start of a good buff on Assassin Strike (although my biggest complaint is still activation time. I can live with interruption but not long activation time).

Corr's Scourge chance increases when the critter's health is less. Stalker's "-HP effect" is the reverse of that. The higher the critter's health, the higher the chance it occurs and once it's past 50%, the -HP effect stops.

Gavin:

Yes, it would be (in essence) illusionary damage- much as when an ally boosted by frostwork doesn't have their damage scale between boosted/unboosted, -max hp is basically just bringing the threshold to defeat closer without doing one point of damage. As mentioned, though, regeneration does scale to hp, so it is (indirectly) a -regen, and a form that bypasses the AV/GM ~87% regen debuff resistance as well. I agree the duration is key, and 20 seconds seems a reasonable duration. (As it would give enough time to recharge placate/assassin strike to refresh the power betwixt scrapping)

I understand the reluctance to center such a thing on one power, but I honestly think that stalkers 'normal' attacks are decent, to be honest. Assassin strike is odd in that its hidden 'requirement' and interruptability relegate it out of standard usage, and its 'slow attack with burst to kill' becomes far less potent in long, sustained engagements. As -max hp on a percentage base (especially a low percentage) would have little effect on standard targets that don't have huge hp to start with, I thought putting it into the 'once in a while' special attack made sense. Just to me, at least. It just seemed to solidify the assassin strike as the the 'big target take down' attack.

It's also probably also related to my reluctance to consider something that would become far more complex; adding -max hp to everything in any meaningful value would become a little much with the un-hidden critical hits there. It would make it interesting, though, in figuring out DPS. How would that work if every attack not only took away how much health a target had, but also reduced their hitpoint pool, doubly taking them closer to death with every attack.

Nihilii:

While I do like bruising as an effect, it has a major flaw, that being the lack of stackability, hence why I brought up a scaling value just by basing off of current HP. I'm reluctant to suggest a whole-hog full stacking, though, especially on something as finicky as base HP. The idea you bring up of -regen on high ranking foes is related, but not equal. -Regeneration doesn't bring a foe any closer to defeat, it just makes them NOT recover from damage. -HP Both reduces regeneration effectiveness AND brings a foe closer to death.

Honestly, I'm not looking to make Stalkers the king of AV/Gm killers either. I was more considering how stalkers' strength is often said to be their ability to do burst damage, and trying to give a meaningful but not overwhelmingly potent way to give them a 'burst' of damage versus enemies that are design against that strength. Hence why this idea seemed interesting to me- it makes burst damage more doable without actually meddling with the stalkers' abilities in ways that negatively impact engagements with lesser foes.

To put it shortly, it makes victory more reachable without giving the stalker any direct boost.

That -hp proc for the inherent sounds like a really cool idea.

Thanks Nihili and Hopeling. Weird mechanic but kinda cool. Appreciate the clarity.

Make you PM dev about this idea.

Don't rely on them coming here to read because your idea will never be heard.