Provoke vs Tanker Taunt


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Tanking with a MM is... "problematic" without status protection. With enough defense, and picking up pool powers like acrobatics, you can make it serviceable. But the lack of full spectrum status protection will be an issue against many mob types if you're trying to tank. I think that's the main reason you don't see it happen often. If you pick your content carefully, you can make it a non issue I suppose, but I prefer being able to play a role across all content if possible. Blaster-tanks would have the same drawback as MM's. Controllers can attempt to perma-Indomitable Will, or just depend on overwhelming CC for all but EB/AV's. Or illusion control can perma phantom army and get them to tank. But this is getting away from any useful reason to take Provoke.


Aside from scrappers (some of whom can tank rather effectively), there's one AT where Provoke really shines: VEATs, especially Crab-Tanks.

A properly built Crab-Tank can be "extremely" viable as a tank, in all possible tanking situations. You can build to tank level durability, and you have full status protection with a -KB IO. The difference in aggro management, is mainly that you lack gauntlet and a taunt aura. You can somewhat make up for this with large area high aoe-dps, you'll have weaker 'pull' but across a larger area than most tanks/brutes can muster. Best to go in early, and get your team to hold off for a few seconds (built correctly, you're indestructible anyway). Or if there's decent control in your group, you can leave for the next spawn while your team finishes off the current spawn, giving you ample time to set up aggro or corner pull. But you really need provoke in your tool set to 'help' manage team aggro as a crab-tank, and to spam in order to keep aggro when you're being out-dps'd in longer fights (ex: AV fights).

Frankly, the lack of range-debuff in provoke (same in brute's taunt) is not a bad thing for a crab, as the crab's ST and AoE are both just as strong at range. Mobs can sit at any distance they want, or up close all around me, as long as they're halfway clustered together, and aggro'd on me.

But then, as far as tanking goes, incarnate leagues (unless they are familiar with your tanking ability) will usually go with a tank archetype for the arch villains, just based on preconceived notions that they're more durable than my crab (often not the case). And in 8-person groups, a fairly wide variety of character types can pull off tanking vs. all but AV's. I have two controllers who can "tank" 8-man purple spawns just fine, a couple scrappers who can do it with strong heal support, and one controller who can go up against an AV solo (but maybe not hold aggro vs an AV in a group). So crab-tank is sadly only a part-time build, pulled out whenever a group needs a punching bag, or to do some farming on par with any X/fire brute. The rest of the time i play it as a mage-tank-spider-mastermind


Virtue Heroes of note:
Katerinae, Luci Ferre, Shinigami's Kiss, Dark Invokation, Cerulean Twilight, Side effect, Cheshire Noir

Virtue Villains of note:
- Black Dragon, Raven Sterling, Domina Procella, Inertia K., Vivian Revenio, Charlotte Arachne, Doll Parts, Fierce Orchid, Theta Charge

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Really?...Mids shows a mag of 4 for both Tanker taunts and Provoke.

Either way...it's better than not having a taunt.
Yes, both should be the same magnitude.

According to Castle, the actual effectiveness of a taunt is:

Taunt Mag x Taunt Duration Remaining x Threat Level x Damage x Debuff

Damage and Debuff are not the exact amounts of damage dealt or debuff applied, but rather modifiers that are based on the amount of damage you've dealt and/or debuff applied.

So a Tank using Taunt will have the same Magnitude as a Scrapper using Provoke, but the duration, Threat level and Debuff will all be higher for the Tank, so his taunt will be FAR more effective.

Also, your Taunt or Confront power from your Primary or Secondary will use the same combat mode as the rest of the powerset, while Provoke uses Disable_All. That means that Provoke forces you into the default combat stance and causes redraw for weapon sets, should that be relevant to you.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Put simply the best Tanker Minds are those with Force Fields or Traps as a secondary as they have powers that give you mez protection.

Even so, on my MMs I wouldn't bother with it. Solo I can just use my personal attacks to draw aggro. On teams I'll just make my pets charge forward, drawing aggro away from my teammates.

Just how I roll.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
One of my previous specs for my human form Warshade took and used Provoke very often. I could also see it being useful for a human form Peacebringer, and maybe even some defenders (though, good luck finding room for it.)


Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.953
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Time Manipulation
Secondary Power Set: Fire Blast
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Presence
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temporal Mending -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(3), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(3), Dct'dW-Heal(5), Dct'dW-Rchg(5)
Level 1: Flares -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Fire Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(9), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11)
Level 4: Time's Juncture -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(11), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(13), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(13), EndRdx-I(39)
Level 6: Fire Ball -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(17), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), Posi-Dam%(19), EndRdx-I(40)
Level 8: Distortion Field -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(15), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(15), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(17)
Level 10: Rain of Fire -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(21), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), Posi-Dam%(23)
Level 12: Time Crawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Temporal Selection -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal(31), Dct'dW-Rchg(31)
Level 16: Time Stop -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(33), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(33), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(33)
Level 18: Farsight -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), DefBuff-I(34), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34), GftotA-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 20: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 22: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(25), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(39), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(42)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(25), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(37), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), RedFtn-Def(46), RedFtn-EndRdx(46)
Level 26: Slowed Response -- Acc-I(A), Achilles-ResDeb%(50)
Level 28: Blaze -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(40), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 32: Chrono Shift -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(42), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Dct'dW-Heal(43), Dct'dW-Rchg(43)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(36)
Level 38: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(39)
Level 41: Power Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(45), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(45), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Provoke -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(48), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(48), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(48), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(50), Mocking-Rchg(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 0: Call to Justice
Level 50: Cardiac Total Core Revamp
Level 50: Clarion Partial Core Invocation
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(45)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(27), P'Shift-End%(27)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run



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This is just my current Defender's build swapping Combat Jumping for Provoke. He'd lose about 4% defense, but has enough spare that he'd still softcap.





Now I kinda want to mod his build to include it.... cause the idea amuses me....


@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
You know, I'm aware masterminds were designed to tank, but I have never seen a Mastermind tanking.
Masterminds were never designed to tank. I'm not saying it can't be done, because it can, and quite well at that. But Bodyguard mode (ie. the main reason MMs can tank anything) was added post-release to address MM survivability concerns, especially in PvP.

If the idea was they were designed as a "disposable tank" by keeping the enemy's attention with minions, this doesn't really fit either, since MM minions have no inherent taunt effects. I'm not sure offhand about their threat modifier, but all things considered I'm not sure it would matter, the average Brute would peel enemies off minions without even trying.


A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations

- Jonathan Coulton