Stalker: A Case Study
By
Aether_Crash,
Posted on: 2011-10-28 22:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
/signed. Really hard. This seems like a fantastic idea and -would- allow Resistance based sets to leverage Hide more. |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Prior to this thread, I too have called for Hide to be made an Inherent Power of the Stalker AT, so as to free up a power slot. Along the same lines, I would even go so far as to say that Assassination (the current Inherent) should be reconfigured so as to replace Assassination Strike as well ... which would free up 1 power slot in both the Primary and the Secondary of every Stalker Powerset.
All of the current "assassination" info about dealing double damage from Hidden and so on would be moved into the (new) Inherent Hide gained at Level 1. All of the Assassin Strike attacks would be transferred into the (new) Assassin Strike Inherent (dependent on Primary) that would be gained at Level 6. Now ... above and beyond that (pair of) change(s) ... there is something that I would love to see done universally to all Stalkers.  Change Stalker Criticals Right now, Critical Hits from Stalkers, either when delivered from Hide or when scrapping it out in normal combat simply deliver DOUBLE DAMAGE (with a couple exceptions, which still need explaining). This is, broadly speaking, identical to Scrapper Performance as far as this goes. The only real difference is the "100% chance to Crit" from Hide that sets Stalkers apart from Scrappers in this area. What if ... instead ... Critical Hits when NOT Hidden operated as "free" Placate of affected $Target(s) and regain Hide effect ... which then turned your next attack after an unHidden Crit into a (100% chance to) Critical Hit From Hide for double damage? Essentially, Stalkers would "flicker" in and out of Hidden status while in combat ... and be dealing *all* of their double damage effects while Hidden, because Stalkers would be able to "vanish" during regular combat when they "Crit" while NOT Hidden. Over an infinite time span, the difference between the system we've got now, and what I'm proposing would be no dramatically meaningful gain or loss of DPS (or even DPA, really) when averaged out over infinite time. However, within finite time spans, especially of 20 seconds or less ... there would be a rather marked performance (and gameplay!) differential away from what we've already got on the Live Servers. Stalkers would essentially turn into "freestyle combo builders" for delivering double damage. When Hidden: Primary Attack(s) automatically Critical for Double Damage. When NOT Hidden: Primary Attack(s) that Critical immediately Placate $Target(s) affected by your attack (for 4 seconds?) and restore Hidden status ... granting your NEXT attack an automatic Critical for Double Damage (see "when Hidden" above). For my game mechanical design of gameplaying challenges, this seems like a far more interesting way to achieve the necessary "Uniqueness" that the Stalker AT is currently lacking. You wouldn't even need to change the current game mechanic of Stalkers having a 10% Crit +3% Crit per Teammate within 30 ft that the AT already has. The whole point of this change is to better leverage the existing Hide Mechanics so as to bolster the unique playstyle that the Stalker should have and encourage. Stalkers would *flicker* in and out of Hidden status somewhat constantly while in combat, and attentive players (who aren't just button mashing) would be able to take advantage of that to achieve better results ... ie. Player Skill is Rewarded. The beauty of it is that this change wouldn't even be "that difficult" to implement. All the necessary parts and pieces of Game Engine Tech already exist within the game. It's just a matter of someone like Second Measure "liking the idea" and deciding to put it on the schedule for someone like Synapse or Black Scorpion or Arbiter Hawk to implement. |
Along with the usual things asked for:
- +HP cap (so we can actually use our +HP powers)
- Make Placate a 5-target AoE (so we can actually placate and return to hidden against large groups and especially ambushes
I don't especially mind about making Assassin's Strike inherent (even though the power it replaces is almost always better), but making Hide inherent seems like a no-brainer.
Cheers!
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Quote:
There's only one ideal way to get back into Hide in the middle of combat and that is Placate. And every stalker has it. You should never actually try to get back into Hide by waiting. For one, even a soft-cap defense is no guarantee this will work. For another, even if it DID work every time you are doing less damage by waiting for Hide than by just attacking the whole time instead.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
And you are claiming those sets do nothing to help regain hidden status? What about SR having the best defence of all those sets? Sounds like an ideal way to get back into Hide..not be hit!
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Where defense is important for Stalkers is not getting dropped out of Hide by random aggro or having a Placate spoiled before you get a chance to follow up with a crit. Defense also stacks, in a sense, with the unresistable AoE tohit debuff placed on enemies by a successful Assassin Strike.
Quote:
| Talking hidden status again, what about all those powers you list in the next paragraph, Oppressive Gloom, Energy Drain, Chilling Embrace, Smoke Flash, Soul Transfer and Caltrops....I know the auras suppresses when Hidden..but after you attack, they are active. Meaning the stalker GETS more aggro. Oh and what is the point of the stalker..to be stealth, unseen...NOT to get aggro. |
Pulsing toggles are a problem as, I think has already been mentioned, because they can interfere with Placate. So that's worth worrying about. But I seriously hope no one skips Caltrops because they think it will hurt their chances to get back into Hide in the middle of combat. The good news there is that getting back into Hide by waiting in the middle of combat doing nothing is a BAD idea and something you shouldn't be trying to do. So 'trop away!
Smoke Flash isn't particularly a problem so much as just, well... all but worthless. It's a very short duration mez on a rather long recharge timer and the placate it delivers does NOT give you an immediate critical. Take it if you have a slot you just don't know what to do with. Otherwise skip it.
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Quote:
There are two things that make Regeneration capable of dealing with the alpha strike: Moment of Glory and Revive.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Then you WILL get aggro unless someone else is managing it. That's to be expected and that's why you have a melee defensive secondary.
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Unfortunately, neither power recharges quickly enough to do that every spawn.
I have a couple of things I want to see happen to Hide:
1. Make it unsuppressable by enemy attacks. If need be, suppress the Stealth component, but DO NOT suppress the Hidden component when the Stalker takes damage. This way, the Stalker has much more leeway to make use of his Hidden Criticals, and bugged AI can't break your Hide before Placate has finished. It would also make the idea of placating on a critical possible.
2. When Hide suppresses, make its Stealth suppress down to Energy Cloak/Cloak of Shadows levels, or AT LEAST down to Cloaking Device levels. What this means is that when you break your own Hide, you do not become visible from space and draw the aggro of everyone within a 20 mile radius. If you attack a spawn, AI rules mean that spwan will know where you are even if you're hidden, but retaining some degree of stealth will hide you from other spawns nearby as you fight. It's absurd that my Energy/Energy Brute is more stealthy in combat than most Stalkers who rely on their own powersets.
I know for a fact that both of these are possible within the game's existing powers system, so no new tech needs to be invented. Yes, they empower Stalkers, but that's a good thing, as it empowers them through better use of their gimmick. Rehiding by waiting becomes trivial to achieve, yes, but considering that's a colossal waste of time to try and do, that's not a big deal.
Beyond that, what to do with Hide and Assassin's Strike is a subject with many, many answers. Making them both Inherent seems like a bit of an odd choice since it gives Stalkers more stuff they need to slot, hence why I'm more a favour of modifying the powers and putting the functionality their respective sets lost either back into existing powers, or directly back into the AT powers, themselves.
I believe Titan Weapons tech permits for different powers to be executed by a power call depending on what state a character is in. If that's possible, then I'd like to see Assassin's Strike retrofitted as something like what the set lost to get Assassin's Strike to begin with (other than Electric Melee, since... Thunder Clap...), or at least something that fills a hole in the set's balance. So, for Martial Arts, that would be an AoE whole Electric Melee, it would be... Something else.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Primary Attack(s) automatically Critical for Double Damage.
When NOT Hidden:
Primary Attack(s) that Critical immediately Placate $Target(s) affected by your attack (for 4 seconds?) and restore Hidden status ... granting your NEXT attack an automatic Critical for Double Damage (see "when Hidden" above).
For my game mechanical design of gameplaying challenges, this seems like a far more interesting way to achieve the necessary "Uniqueness" that the Stalker AT is currently lacking. You wouldn't even need to change the current game mechanic of Stalkers having a 10% Crit +3% Crit per Teammate within 30 ft that the AT already has. The whole point of this change is to better leverage the existing Hide Mechanics so as to bolster the unique playstyle that the Stalker should have and encourage. Stalkers would *flicker* in and out of Hidden status somewhat constantly while in combat, and attentive players (who aren't just button mashing) would be able to take advantage of that to achieve better results ... ie. Player Skill is Rewarded.
The beauty of it is that this change wouldn't even be "that difficult" to implement. All the necessary parts and pieces of Game Engine Tech already exist within the game. It's just a matter of someone like Second Measure "liking the idea" and deciding to put it on the schedule for someone like Synapse or Black Scorpion or Arbiter Hawk to implement.
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