Maintenance is a bit excessive...
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-09-30 06:04 in Suggestions and Ideas
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I am sure that the Devs are trying very hard to limit downtime, especially at this point. However, fixing the servers BEFORE weekend prime times is better than letting issues go unresolved until Tuesday.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
We just pulled in a whole slew of players, including returning players I expect. I realize that the increased maintenance perhaps can't be helped, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't bode well for the games rep at this critical time.
I would recommend that a solution be found as soon as possible to end this excessive downtime. Otherwise it may hurt any momentum Freedom may have created. |
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I think it would have been better to fix any issues before Freedom's launch.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I am sure that the Devs are trying very hard to limit downtime, especially at this point. However, fixing the servers BEFORE weekend prime times is better than letting issues go unresolved until Tuesday.
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I suspect part of the reason we had increased maintenance periods in the last few weeks BEFORE CoH:Freedom officially launched was to make sure they'd be able to keep downtime to a minimum AFTER the launch. And as Aett_Thorn implied I'm quite sure they always endeavor to keep any downtime to a minimum regardless.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
I think it would have been better to fix any issues before Freedom's launch.
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P.S. Just to provide some historical perspective the amount of maintenance downtime we've had here in the last month is far from what the "average" has been over the last 7.5 years. Clearly the changes for CoH:Freedom are pretty huge, but I have faith that things will settle back down eventually.
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Not all issues can be determined before a launch. Unfortunate, but true. For one, there are more players, doing different things than they would in a Beta, and they can find more problems. |
Originally Posted by quickfire
I think it would have been better to fix any issues before Freedom's launch.
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Do I wish that they could figure out every issue in the Betas? Yes. But it's not going to happen. There are just too many additional variables on the live servers.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
All fair points certainly. This is just really bad timing, no matter the reason. This is the time when returning players will form judgments on the state of the game. Not the best time to be going down 4 or 5 times a week.
IMO, if it remains in this troubled state, they should pull it back into the beta server, continue testing (while its still live of course), make the corrections there aggressively, and then drop a large fix build on the live servers.
Better than trying to fix it as they go IMO.
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This is REALLY not the better way to go. Freedom has gone Live at this point. Making minor fixes every so often is FAR better at this point than pulling this back completely. For one, all of a sudden you have a bunch of people who are playing who no longer can, for an indeterminate amount of time in the scale of weeks to months, potentially. And even then, you still might not find every bug that will happen on the Live servers.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
All fair points certainly. This is just really bad timing, no matter the reason. This is the time when returning players will form judgments on the state of the game. Not the best time to be going down 4 or 5 times a week.
IMO, if it remains in this troubled state, they should pull it back into the beta server, continue testing (while its still live of course), make the corrections there aggressively, and then drop a large fix build on the live servers. Better than trying to fix it as they go IMO. |
So, you basically piss off a lot of people who can't play at all for weeks or months, just to avoid a few hours of downtime here and there.
And here's the thing, if you leave what we have still live, only make fixes on the Beta server, then we STILL need to take the Live servers down for maintenance about the same amount anyways, as there will still be bugs there. However, now we have the Devs working simultaneously to fix the same bugs on Live and Beta, which doubles their work time to make any fix.
I know that this is inconvenient for some (maybe a lot) of people. But the alternative is far worse.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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You do realize that they are ALWAYS testing/fixing bugs on both the Test and Beta servers all the time right? Why would you think that's not happening already? And as far as implying the idea of "trying to fix it as they go" is a bad thing can you actually name me any MMO that doesn't constantly work on bug fixes while a live build is running on their servers?|
Originally Posted by quickfire
All fair points certainly. This is just really bad timing, no matter the reason. This is the time when returning players will form judgments on the state of the game. Not the best time to be going down 4 or 5 times a week.
IMO, if it remains in this troubled state, they should pull it back into the beta server, continue testing (while its still live of course), make the corrections there aggressively, and then drop a large fix build on the live servers. Better than trying to fix it as they go IMO. |
These things are "Software Operation and Maintenance" 101 things here...
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Well, you have your opinions, I have mine. I find it pretty silly that fixing it as you go and bringing the game down as much as it is going down is considered a wise move.
I just can't see any way it can be considered so.
And yes, playing with the bugs IS a better alternative. Players are FAR more accepting of bugs (especially some of the ones listed as known issues) compared to constant down time.
They need to do it, period. Pull the current build as a MIRROR to the beta server, aggressively work on it, keep the current game up more often, then drop a large fix on the servers.
Like it or not it's the wisest choice.
As for the hardware issue, they need to shard. The problem is they stopped instancing before they were ready. Sharding is a good temp solution until the hardware catches up.
Remember...just my opinion. For whatever it's worth.
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Yes I agree yours is an opinion. It just doesn't mesh well with the realities of this software application/maintenance situation. And I'm only saying that as a Software Engineer with nearly 20 years of professional experience... for whatever that's worth.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Well, you have your opinions, I have mine. I find it pretty silly that fixing it as you go and bringing the game down as much as it is going down is considered a wise move.
I just can't see any way it can be considered so. And yes, playing with the bugs IS a better alternative. Players are FAR more accepting of bugs (especially some of the ones listed as known issues) compared to constant down time. They need to do it, period. Pull the current build as a MIRROR to the beta server, aggressively work on it, keep the current game up more often, then drop a large fix on the servers. Like it or not it's the wisest choice. As for the hardware issue, they need to shard. The problem is they stopped instancing before they were ready. Sharding is a good temp solution until the hardware catches up. Remember...just my opinion. For whatever it's worth. |
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Ok. My guess is that most players of the game won't have 20 years of Software Engineer experience. That's the only response I could give to that.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Yes I agree yours is an opinion. It just doesn't mesh well with the realities of this software application/maintenance situation. And I'm only saying that as a Software Engineer with nearly 20 years of professional experience... for whatever that's worth.
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Funny how people feel experience in a certain field of work justifies a bad opinion. Also funny how they feel they exist in a vacuum.
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My experience does not "justify" what you call a bad opinion. It only makes me understand that given the situation at hand what the Devs appear to be doing to handle it seems much more realistic from an engineering and business point of view than the relatively extreme and unjustifiable suggestions you're offering.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok. My guess is that most players of the game won't have 20 years of Software Engineer experience. That's the only response I could give to that.
Funny how people feel experience in a certain field of work justifies a bad opinion. Also funny how they feel they exist in a vacuum. |
I understand downtime of any kind is bad and annoying. But suggesting they should essentially stop doing anything other than to "overwork" the current build and re-release CoH:Freedom at a later date when it's finally "finished" is both practically and effectively impossible. No software application of this size is ever technically "done" nor is it ever held back until ALL the bugs are fixed. If Devs in general tried to do that then nothing would ever be released.
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Ok, I'm going to put your experience into question, with your permission (I would rather this does not deevolve into a shooting match), but first I would ask that you actually read my suggestion again so you can correct your misjudgments and incorrect assumptions/assessments.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
My experience does not "justify" what you call a bad opinion. It only makes me understand that given the situation at hand what the Devs appear to be doing to handle it seems much more realistic from an engineering and business point of view than the relatively extreme and unjustifiable suggestions you're offering.
I understand downtime of any kind is bad and annoying. But suggesting they should essentially stop doing anything other than to "overwork" the current build and re-release CoH:Freedom at a later date when it's finally "finished" is both practically and effectively impossible. No software application of this size is ever technically "done" nor is it ever held back until ALL the bugs are fixed. If Devs tried to do that then nothing would ever be released. |
I really don't think I need to point out the inaccuracies and exaggerations in your post. Just take time to read the suggestion again, correct your viewpoint to properly reflect what I am asking for, and THEN we can have a debate on the merits or pitfalls of that suggestion.
To be fair...my suggestion could be complete garbage. But we can't have that discussion unless you know what I am asking for and properly state it for the sake of the argument.
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You know he's repeatedly said leave it in it's current state...
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Originally Posted by Lothic
My experience does not "justify" what you call a bad opinion. It only makes me understand that given the situation at hand what the Devs appear to be doing to handle it seems much more realistic from an engineering and business point of view than the relatively extreme and unjustifiable suggestions you're offering.
I understand downtime of any kind is bad and annoying. But suggesting they should essentially stop doing anything other than to "overwork" the current build and re-release CoH:Freedom at a later date when it's finally "finished" is both practically and effectively impossible. No software application of this size is ever technically "done" nor is it ever held back until ALL the bugs are fixed. If Devs in general tried to do that then nothing would ever be released. |
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Ah ha! |
Originally Posted by MrDead
You know he's repeatedly said leave it in it's current state...
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Someone is paying attention.
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It's called 'cherry picking' and forumites love it.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok, I'm going to put your experience into question, with your permission (I would rather this does not deevolve into a shooting match), but first I would ask that you actually read my suggestion again so you can correct your misjudgments and incorrect assumptions/assessments.
I really don't think I need to point out the inaccuracies and exaggerations in your post. Just take time to read the suggestion again, correct your viewpoint to properly reflect what I am asking for, and THEN we can have a debate on the merits or pitfalls of that suggestion. To be fair...my suggestion could be complete garbage. But we can't have that discussion unless you know what I am asking for and properly state it for the sake of the argument. |
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Cherrypicking? hardly...|
Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok, I'm going to put your experience into question, with your permission (I would rather this does not deevolve into a shooting match), but first I would ask that you actually read my suggestion again so you can correct your misjudgments and incorrect assumptions/assessments.
I really don't think I need to point out the inaccuracies and exaggerations in your post. Just take time to read the suggestion again, correct your viewpoint to properly reflect what I am asking for, and THEN we can have a debate on the merits or pitfalls of that suggestion. To be fair...my suggestion could be complete garbage. But we can't have that discussion unless you know what I am asking for and properly state it for the sake of the argument. |
I think the reason your suggestion seems strange to me is that what you're suggesting is what the Devs are ALREADY doing and what they've ALWAYS done.
The Devs are always working on the latest builds on both the public Test and Beta servers as well as their private internal servers. They always do their best to minimise the required time they need to install new builds on the live servers. Do you think they are just whimsically bringing the live servers down whenever they want to test a single new line of code? Be rest assured that they only bring the servers down when they are VERY SURE they have something worth publishing which includes anything they announce in the patch notes as well as the dozens/hundreds of other things they never tell us about.
So your semi-strange suggestion that the Devs should do MORE to reduce the downtimes is just that, very strange to me given that I'm quite sure the Devs ALREADY do everything they can to minimize that.
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I think part of the problem with your suggestion is that many of the bugs and issues we're experiencing didn't actually happen on Beta and in fact weren't seen until the Issue went to the Live environment.
This isn't that uncommon that a Beta will go relatively smooth and then when it hits Live there's tons of unforeseen issues.
An example would be the scroll bar on the Server Select menu. They couldn't fix that in Beta because it wasn't an issue in Beta.
It's not like there are -that- many Beta testers in relation to the live population. I'm grateful to the Beta testers that take the time to actually test for bugs so we can all benefit but there's only so much that they can do to find bugs.
And one other thing to consider: fixing one thing can potentially break something else.
With all the years of coding that's gone into this game it must be a nightmare for them to track stuff down.
Anyway, just another opinion on the subject. As Loth said, the game will always be a work in progress and nothing will change that. An MMO is "finished' when the servers go offline :P
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You know I've actually understood the point quickfire's been making all along.|
Originally Posted by MrDead
You know he's repeatedly said leave it in it's current state...
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It's just that the idea that the Devs would NOT be working on bug fixes on other Test/Beta servers while the build on the live servers is left up and running so completely counter to every reasonable engineering practice that I've almost dismissed it out of hand on purpose.
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Fair enough.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Cherrypicking? hardly...
I think the reason your suggestion seems strange to me is that what you're suggesting is what the Devs are ALREADY doing and what they've ALWAYS done. The Devs are always working on the latest builds on both the public Test and Beta servers as well as their private internal servers. They always do their best to minimise the required time they need to install new builds on the live servers. Do you think they are just whimsically bringing the live servers down whenever they want to test a single new line of code? Be rest assured that they only bring the servers down when they are VERY SURE they have something worth publishing which includes anything they announce in the patch notes as well as the dozens/hundreds of other things they never tell us able. So your semi-strange suggestion that the Devs should do MORE to reduce the downtimes is just that, very strange to me given that I'm quite sure the Devs ALREADY do everything they can to minimize that. |
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It's a fair point, but there are ways to create a stress test. It's not a perfect solution, but it can reveal the hardware problems they may be having.
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
I think part of the problem with your suggestion is that many of the bugs and issues we're experiencing didn't actually happen on Beta and in fact weren't seen until the Issue went to the Live environment.
This isn't that uncommon that a Beta will go relatively smooth and then when it hits Live there's tons of unforeseen issues. An example would be the scroll bar on the Server Select menu. They couldn't fix that in Beta because it wasn't an issue in Beta. It's not like there are -that- many Beta testers in relation to the live population. I'm grateful to the Beta testers that take the time to actually test for bugs so we can all benefit but there's only so much that they can do to find bugs. And one other thing to consider: fixing one thing can potentially break something else. With all the years of coding that's gone into this game it must be a nightmare for them to track stuff down. Anyway, just another opinion on the subject. As Loth said, the game will always be a work in progress and nothing will change that. An MMO is "finished' when the servers go offline :P |
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This is all very true. I always found it astounding how bad fixing one small thing can bork a whole game...
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
I think part of the problem with your suggestion is that many of the bugs and issues we're experiencing didn't actually happen on Beta and in fact weren't seen until the Issue went to the Live environment.
This isn't that uncommon that a Beta will go relatively smooth and then when it hits Live there's tons of unforeseen issues. An example would be the scroll bar on the Server Select menu. They couldn't fix that in Beta because it wasn't an issue in Beta. It's not like there are -that- many Beta testers in relation to the live population. I'm grateful to the Beta testers that take the time to actually test for bugs so we can all benefit but there's only so much that they can do to find bugs. And one other thing to consider: fixing one thing can potentially break something else. With all the years of coding that's gone into this game it must be a nightmare for them to track stuff down. Anyway, just another opinion on the subject. As Loth said, the game will always be a work in progress and nothing will change that. An MMO is "finished' when the servers go offline :P |
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If you understood the point you would not have followed with exaggeration and false information, just like you did again in this post.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
You know I've actually understood the point quickfire's been making all along.
It's just that the idea that the Devs would NOT be working on bug fixes on other Test/Beta servers while the build on the live servers is left up and running so completely counter to every reasonable engineering practice that I've almost dismissed it out of hand on purpose. |
The problem is my post is above yours. What it says is plain to see. You have made it what you wanted it to say for the sake of argument.
Look, I accepted your premise and called it fair. I think that should be enough. Trying to sell the sun being blue is never going to be right, no matter how much of a discount you offer.
I don't usually do this, but I will make it easy for you.
I never stated, inferred or assumed that testing is not ongoing, nor did I state or infer that the current build needs to be shut down. I stated clearly that the current problems need AGGRESSIVE testing and fixes on a separate build while the CURRENT BUILD remains running with normal down time. The fixes they are implementing are not game breaking, and hardware upgrades can be softened by sharding, depending on the database they are currently using and how it is structured.
There. You got me to repeat myself based on a post I made just one page ago. It's an age old tactic, get someone to restate the same things over and over, try to get them off balance, trip them up...so on and so forth. Forum PVP. You can't POSSIBLY have read my suggestion and came to the conclusions you did, you HAVE to have had other intentions.
The problem is that you do not lend credence to your argument by using such combative dishonest tactics. If you have the experience you say you do, and my idea is truly trash (it certainly could be) than that truth will be borne by sensible discussion, not theatrics and positioning.
And certainly not by putting a slant on it.
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I'm certainly open to the idea that they could do more to stress test things. But then again there's never been a team of people working on a software application that couldn't stand to spend more time stress testing things. Like I implied before that's one of those things you can never do enough of.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
It's a fair point, but there are ways to create a stress test. It's not a perfect solution, but it can reveal the hardware problems they may be having.
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The Devs do their best to encourage people to go try things out during the closed and open betas. They even generate "live stress tests" as best they can - basically every time they do things like the Praetorian Invasion that's a stress test or sorts.
But as SolarSentai said there's always things that crop up in a live environment that'll never show up during a beta no matter how much testing you do beforehand. Are there things they might be able to do to further reduce the downtimes we're seeing now? Sure there's always room for improvement. But my guess, for what it's worth, is that they are doing the best they can given the limitations of time, staff, budgets, etc. No situation is going to be perfect - it's how they balance juggle all the factors at once that matters most.
And for the record I never ONCE thought you ever said the current build needed to be completely unloaded from the live servers. Why you thought I jumped to that assumption is anyone's guess. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by quickfire
I stated clearly that the current problems need AGGRESSIVE testing and fixes on a separate build while the CURRENT BUILD remains running with normal down time.
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We just pulled in a whole slew of players, including returning players I expect. I realize that the increased maintenance perhaps can't be helped, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't bode well for the games rep at this critical time.
I would recommend that a solution be found as soon as possible to end this excessive downtime. Otherwise it may hurt any momentum Freedom may have created.