heh i would but my fire tank has a ton of purples and pvp recipes..no way im doing that with my fire brute..lol
also since fire/ has no combustion it wouldnt be right to compare.i could see either elec melee or ss being compared but not fire
I want to take the time to thank you for your efforts.
I'd only like to point out that SS is a set that will slightly favor the Tank because a Tank has higher base damage than a Brute. The damage buff provided by Rage is not enough to eclipse Fury, but it does actually help to bring the two closer in line with each other. I would suspect that with a melee set like Stone Melee, Electric Melee or Mace, you would see slightly wider performance levels.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Yeah Super Strength is probably not the most generic set, and it would be a better test if both toons were optimized individually based on their own strengths and weaknesses within the sets rather than sharing an identical build, but I'm a sucker for concept 
If I find myself utterly bored I might try to see at what point mission difficulty begins to allow the tank to pull ahead on completion time, based on not needing to take extraordinary efforts to survive (or get back from the hospital). I'd probably need to incorporate inspirations though, and that just sounds overly complicated for now.
Well, I was going to try for some survival tests, but it looks like Invincibility might be bugged at the moment (or the combat attributes display isn't giving the right numbers).
I never found Golden Delicious Apples to be golden or delicious. 
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
Quote:
Why do you say that? |
Originally Posted by TheNavigator
Well, I was going to try for some survival tests, but it looks like Invincibility might be bugged at the moment (or the combat attributes display isn't giving the right numbers).
|
FYI, the base Invinc defense won't show in Combat Attributes unless you're within melee range of one foe.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
When Invincibility is saturated on this particular tank his Fire Defense should be 55. It was sitting steadily at 71 after triggering the ambush and having a spawn of mobs densely stacked around him. Once the spawn thinned out a bit (still fully saturating Invincibility) the mobs stopped stacking and his Fire Defense dropped back down to 55 again.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Why do you say that?
FYI, the base Invinc defense won't show in Combat Attributes unless you're within melee range of one foe. |
I don't know if this is a bug with Invincibility allowing stacked mobs to count double, or just with the Combat Attributes display (I don't know whether it measures actual values or extrapolated ones).
I've no idea if this is a new bug, an old one, or just an edge case of WAI, but I submitted a bug report anyway.
I logged the brute and an Inv scrapper to test it on both of them and I wasn't able to replicate the bug, then I logged my tank back in and now I can't recreate it with him either.
Must've been temporary insanity.
Invincibility has a duration of 1.25 seconds and a tick rate of 1.0 seconds. For that quarter second every second invincibility doublestacks.
The real numbers display has changed lately. It may have been i21. Before, the numbers display would adjust as quickly as the numbers themselves did. However, now the numbers have a delay that can be easily seen by monitoring last hit chance and attacking, or looking at defense and resist values while adjusting powers. Since this delay has appeared, the quick changes to powers like invincibility don't show up, at least not reliably so.
I'm going to guess that the real numbers display is now on its own tick rate, and it looks to be about one second. That would mean that it's quite easy to take invincibility into a fight and never see the displayed values with invinc doublestacking.
The same behavior happens with rise to the challenge and against all odds, if you care to go looking.
That would probably explain it.
If you have a GOOD build, you could try running my challenge map, 209245, on both toons and compare times.
It should be revealing.
Quote:
It took my tank 1:01:42 to clear the entire map, including the ambushes, at +4x8 (no bosses) without using inspirations, temp powers, Destiny or Lore. I did use Judgement because otherwise it would have taken forever. Between the high levels of S/L resistance and all the Thermal mobs it was slow going for Super Strength.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
If you have a GOOD build, you could try running my challenge map, 209245, on both toons and compare times.
It should be revealing. |
I'll have to run it again at a lower difficulty for my comparison because I don't think my brute can clear that map at +4x8 without dying or using inspirations. I'll try the comparison runs when I get some time tonight.
Well, I ran it at +0x8 twice with each toon and the brute was able to clear the map 12.5% faster than the tank on average. I used Judgement for all the runs, but no inspirations, Lore pets or temp powers.
I did notice that even at +0x8 I had to be quick with Dull Pain or the occasional Destiny boost to keep the brute alive. I'd say the brute's ease-of-survival on this mission at +0x8 was roughly comparable to the tank at +4x8.
Quote:
With Insps, this would probably change considerably. Brutes really love inspirations. They have a higher damage cap and can reach tanker-level resistance with a little help from their orange friends. Both ATs would probably appreciate some temp powers during the Rage crash. Lore's buffing pets would be nice during an ambush farm, but the rest would likely die too fast.
|
Originally Posted by TheNavigator
Well, I ran it at +0x8 twice with each toon and the brute was able to clear the map 12.5% faster than the tank on average. I used Judgement for all the runs, but no inspirations, Lore pets or temp powers.
I did notice that even at +0x8 I had to be quick with Dull Pain or the occasional Destiny boost to keep the brute alive. I'd say the brute's ease-of-survival on this mission at +0x8 was roughly comparable to the tank at +4x8. |
I set up a new test using a small AE map filled with normal Werewolf spawns to mimic a more 'normal' mission experience. Each variation was run twice with each toon at +0x8 with no inspirations, pets, vet attacks or temp powers used.
no Reactive, no Judgement = Brute was 23.8% faster
Reactive, no Judgement = Brute was 22.2% faster
Reactive and Judgement = Brute was 21.1% faster
So with the normal sized spawns Judgement wasn't able to be used nearly as efficiently as in an ambush map, and the Brute lost a little fury travelling between spawns. The result was much more consistent though, and likely models the difference in arresting effectiveness between the two toons more accurately than the other tests did.
I'm not sure what any of this data is actually worth in terms of comparing the ATs in general, but it was a fun comparison to run to satisfy my own curiosity.
Quote:
Inspirations would certainly affect the results, but it's too difficult to incorporate their random drops into the tests without running waaaay more iterations than I have time or attention span for.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
With Insps, this would probably change considerably. Brutes really love inspirations. They have a higher damage cap and can reach tanker-level resistance with a little help from their orange friends. Both ATs would probably appreciate some temp powers during the Rage crash. Lore's buffing pets would be nice during an ambush farm, but the rest would likely die too fast.
|
My gut feeling, based on these two toons sharing this specific build, is that if I found the razor edge of difficulty where the brute was surviving only by converting and popping every purple and orange that came along the tank would still be able to eat reds by the handful. Whether that would tip the completion time in favour of the tank or not I don't know, but would certainly close the gap.
Vet attacks, temp powers and Lore pets would all speed things up, but I had to make an arbitrary decision about what to include in the testing, and it seemed simpler to leave them out.
I was surprised that, based on the latest round of tests, there was only about a ~22% difference in completion times using identical SS builds. I would have thought the gap would be much wider than that overall.
True, but SS is a darn fine powerset for tanks that want to hurt things...
Quote:
If an SS/Inv Brute pops one small purple and one small orange, he has both more defense and more resistance than an Inv/SS Tanker with the same build. Defense will hit an effective limit at 45% for most content, something both can hit for any given damage type very easily with IO's alone, so purples likely wouldn't be necessary.|
Originally Posted by TheNavigator
My gut feeling, based on these two toons sharing this specific build, is that if I found the razor edge of difficulty where the brute was surviving only by converting and popping every purple and orange that came along the tank would still be able to eat reds by the handful. Whether that would tip the completion time in favour of the tank or not I don't know, but would certainly close the gap.
|
Tankers do get 25% more HP, but neither should drop that low in testing outside of soloing Incarnate content or eating one of the big AV attacks. Brute damage should be ~150% of Tanker damage without popping reds, meaning fewer attacks coming in over the course of the test (nothing mitigates like death).
Granted, if I start with an S/L/E/N-capped Inv/SS Tanker build and port that exact build over to a Brute, the Brute won't be capped to anything. That's where a single small purple can make a world of difference for the Brute. Likewise, if I have an S/L/E/N-capped Brute build, a lot of defense would be wasted by porting that build over to a Tanker. So, any "same build" test has some inherent problems.
Regardless, results are showing that both survive reasonably well and the Brute performs notably better. Right?
Quote:
I think that's half the truth.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Regardless, results are showing that both survive reasonably well and the Brute performs notably better. Right?
|
Results are showing that the Tank survives notably better and the Brute applies damage notably better.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
This. If I'd been asked to predict the results beforehand I would have guessed that the brute would have been further out ahead in terms of speed than the results showed, but otherwise no big surprises.
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I think that's half the truth.
Results are showing that the Tank survives notably better and the Brute applies damage notably better. |
Quote:
The tank, as a specialist, can do things the brute simply can't, period.|
Originally Posted by TheNavigator
This. If I'd been asked to predict the results beforehand I would have guessed that the brute would have been further out ahead in terms of speed than the results showed, but otherwise no big surprises.
|
The trick is, outside of the frankly insane parameters of a test-to-destruction like the challenge map, does the tanks edge mean beans?
I strongly suspect in most cases it does not.
I have an Inv/SS tank and SS/Inv brute with identical builds, right down to the last slot, IO and Accolade, so I decided to do a little head-to-head performance comparison.
The build I'm using on both is optimized for survival first and damage a close second. Both are 50+3 with Reactive Radial Flawless Interface, Ion Core Final Judgement and Cardiac Core Paragon Alpha. Lore and Destiny were not used during the test. Inspirations, vet attacks and temp powers were also not used. The build does not include Hasten and does not stack Rage.
I put each one through ten runs of a popular 'fire-based cyborg-themed' AE mission at +0x8 (no bosses), the first five without using Judgement and the last five with it included in the attack chain whenever it came up.
In the first five runs (no Judgement) I found that the brute was able to clear the main room an average of 22.4% faster than the tank. In the second five runs (with Judgement) I found that the brute was only 6.6% faster than the tank.
Over the course of the test the brute needed to use Dull Pain an average of 1.1 times per run (not in any real danger, but the slow trickle of damage was slightly beating his regeneration). The tank's health bar didn't move during any of the testing.
I wanted to have two comparisons, one with Judgement and one without, because that power makes such a huge difference in mob-clearing that it can significantly obscure AT differences. If I were to un-slot Interface on both the completion time gap would probably widen as well, but I doubt it would be nearly as dramatic and I got bored after 20 runs on the same map.
The identically-built toons are a concept project and I was curious about the actual difference in their real world BPC (Bad-guy Processing Capacity). I'm not posting the builds because I don't want to get bogged down discussing minutia of powers and slotting. Suffice to say that they were designed to be 'general purpose heavy melee' toons.
If anyone else has done a similar comparison I'd be curious to see the results, or if anyone can think of other interesting tests I could run the twins through feel free to make suggestions.