DPS = a fair amout, i would say 100+ (Katana, claws, DM, FM, maybe KM)
Envenomed Dagger is good but with alot of DPS it doesnt really matter
you want a softcap really so thats shields (or SR, but shields is better tbh)
i suggest DM/SD if you want it purely for: I R UBR I R SMASH AVs NAO!
- highest scrapper DPS
- -tohit as secondary effect
- heal in the attack chain
i suggest getting a softcap on a DM/SD and then slot lots of recharge to achieve that chain - forum search there are so many DM/SD builds out there
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Nothing this specific. |
Originally Posted by Black_Assassin
DPS = a fair amout, i would say 100+ (Katana, claws, DM, FM, maybe KM)
Envenomed Dagger is good but with alot of DPS it doesnt really matter you want a softcap really so thats shields (or SR, but shields is better tbh) i suggest DM/SD if you want it purely for: I R UBR I R SMASH AVs NAO! - highest scrapper DPS - -tohit as secondary effect - heal in the attack chain i suggest getting a softcap on a DM/SD and then slot lots of recharge to achieve that chain - forum search there are so many DM/SD builds out there |
You need:
- Enough damage to kill it.
- Enough survivability to live long enough to kill it
That doesn't mean you HAVE to play a DM/Shield if you don't want to. I have a Broadsword/Dark Armor that is an accomplished AV soloer.
Sword/Anything can take out AVs that stay in melee range. Shield, SR, Invuln, and Willpower can all get enough survivability with any primary to pull it off.
The resistance sets (Electric, Fire, Dark) can do it, but it takes more defensive slotting (or Parry/DA if you're a sword set)
It's a safe bet that a scrapper of just about any combination you can imagine has soloed an AV at some point.
There are some extremely knowledgeable players in the scrapper section. Come up with a character you WANT to play, and I'm sure people here can help you build an AV soloer out of it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I've given up soloing AV's on my DM/Regen. Only one I've been able to take was Maestro (curse you name stealer!!) but he's relatively a push over.
I just don't have the reflexes needed apparently. That or not enough IO power.
*Incarnates don't exist to me, so it's IO's or nothing.
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New benchmark for the "build a scrapper that sucks" Scrapper challenge: build a scrapper that cant solo an AV (i.e. what combo, with reasonable* slotting, could never solo an AV).|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Nothing this specific.
[snip] There are some extremely knowledgeable players in the scrapper section. Come up with a character you WANT to play, and I'm sure people here can help you build an AV soloer out of it. |
The big problem I see with this challenge is if you went up against something that had really high s/l dam rez and you have all s or l attacks (or some such combo like you have fire and go against infernal, etc. That was just an example tho; it is likely possible to do). I think no matter what you would be able to solo at least 1 or 2 with any given build.
*dont give me any "what do mean by reasonable" tripe either - 2 acc XO's, 2-3 dam XO's, plus 1 rech or end redux for attacks, and at least 3 dedicated slots for secondaries: dam rez, def, regen, etc.
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Are we talking no temps, no insps, etc.?
It's easy to make a good Scrapper that can't solo an AV under standard "Scrapper challenge" conditions. AV soloing is a speciality that requires some things not normally required in the game as a whole, such as sustainable endurance. I have a 10 billion+ soft-capped Fire/Shield that can't solo an AV because he'd run out of endurance. He'd probably die too, because he doesn't have a self heal. Neither causes me problems in the game as a whole - I just can't solo an AV.
Here's what I'd consider some basics of AV soloing, but they're not all strictly required on all builds:
- soft-capped defense
- more than 1700 hit points
- take and use Tough
- a self-heal or massive regeneration
- average or better DPS
- sustainable endurance
Edit: Perhaps I should address your specific questions:
I don't know of any AV soloing guide.
Your attack chain must be something like 94 DPS to overcome AV resistance. If you want to kill the AV in any reasonable time frame, you'll probably want 140+ DPS. 140 feels pretty marginal, with some very long fights, and you'll have big problems with resistant AVs.
I've tried using the Envenomed Dagger on AVs before. I didn't care for it. I'm sure it helps some. Generally speaking, I don't use temp powers. If we allow temp powers, you can trivialize almost any encounter.
I already discussed defense and self heal.
Resistances and/or hit points are important, yes. AVs hit hard. Even if you're hard to hit, they'll eventually line up two or three big hits in a row. If you can't soak it up or heal it as it happens, you're going down. Regeneration is nice for keeping your hit points topped up after the smaller hits so that you still have your big heal when the big follow up hit happens.
Mez output matters very little. AVs are just about impossible to mez reliably for a Scrapper. You might knock them down once or twice per fight if you have a lot of knockdown. An immobilize can be useful against some AVs if they like to run.
Fire Armor would solo AVs by combining enough defense with high resistance and a self heal.
The most subtle factor in AV soloing is probably sustainable endurance. It's easy to make an uber build that ends up huffing and puffing after a few minutes of solid damage output, keeping you from finishing the job. Oops!
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Just add the following to the end of each requirment: "Depending on the AV"
- 45+ defense at least to Melee, if not Melee/Ranged/Aoe *
- I say 2250 spike protection* (HP x Resist vs Damage Type), because of +4 Rommy. However, other AVs will hit harder or softer. At very least, get your top 4 main HP and END accolades.
- 50 hps. I don't care if that's regeneration, healing, or a combination of the two.
- 150 dps, preferably 180+. I don't care if that's raw damage, or (damage * --resistance) from achilles. Swords sets will need achilles.
- Burn Time of 300, or Burn time of (180 raw and the recovery temp power). Burn time is how long at full offense before you crash your toggles. Killing an AV will take between 300 and 600 seconds on a 150 to 180 dps build, you have to be able to maintain the blue at least that long.
- Immobilize, Taunt Aura, Taunt, or less than intelligent AV. Some AVs run like Olympic Marathoners, others not so much.
First off, thanks to everyone for the info, it really helps!
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THIS, however, is a specific point that I feel like I missed in my search of previous AV-hunting threads. Five to ten minutes for a kill? So that's what they mean by 'it takes a long time'. I guess my next step, then, is to look at some DPS comparisons. Hmmmm.....
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Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
JKilling an AV will take between 300 and 600 seconds on a 150 to 180 dps build, you have to be able to maintain the blue at least that long.
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Incarnate powers can take your 150 dps build and ... Dead AV in 70 seconds.
150 dps + 40+ dps for Reactive T4 + 280 dps for Cimerorans + unlimited endurance for ageless and/or cardiac and/or healing/regen from rebirth ~= 470+ dps ~= 70 seconds.
But, I still recommend you build to be able to kill them without Incarnate powers first, then add the incarnates.
+4 Rommy took me ~18 minutes without incarnates, with incarnates I dropped him in ~3 minutes. At +4 you do .48x damage, so you need twice as much raw power.
i tried my first recently (recluse at end of patron missions) and forget it. I could stand up to it, even with the stupid summons with my kat/wp scrapper, but i couldn't do enough damage to break through and just felt really irritated.
Note that Recluse has high resistances to pretty much every type of damage, especially S/L. I can't recall off the top of my head, but I'm fairly sure it is at least 50%.
To be fair, some level of S/L resistance is fairly common amongst AVs ; but even then, 50%+ is on the high end.
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Some AVs are just tougher then others!|
Originally Posted by pearofpance1
i tried my first recently (recluse at end of patron missions) and forget it. I could stand up to it, even with the stupid summons with my kat/wp scrapper, but i couldn't do enough damage to break through and just felt really irritated.
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Silver Mantis, I've found to be one of the tougher S/L Resistance AVs.
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Good call, I'd forgotten about this. |
Originally Posted by Werner
The most subtle factor in AV soloing is probably sustainable endurance. It's easy to make an uber build that ends up huffing and puffing after a few minutes of solid damage output, keeping you from finishing the job. Oops!
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That was my biggest hurdle to overcome in getting my BS/DA to the point of soloing AVs. I've had the damage output and survivability for a couple years now, I just couldn't keep going long enough to drop them. That changed with Cardiac Alpha.
I can do it without the Alpha, but not without inspirations. I need to keep a few blues handy to get me through running low when Conserve Power is down.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
TLDR: When we say "Solo an AV", what we really mean is "Solo Select AVs".
The top end Kat chain will run ~180 dps without Achilles and Gladiator procs. The average build will not run this chain, but a lower dps version, either 150dps or 160dps depending on build. You may be running even lower on recharge and damage than that.
With 150dps, vs a 50% resistance to SL target, that's only 75 dps. That's a no go.
Add reactive T4 for say 40 dps, but it's probably resisted some as well, so call it 30, for 105 dps. That'll take a very long time to do the deed, still mostly a no go.
Add -resistance procs and reactive, vs heavy resistance and we head into 125 dps range, this will get the job done, but take 15 minutes.
Add Lore Pets, -resistance procs, and reactive vs heavy resistance and .. you'll end up in the 300 dps range, and 2 minutes, squished AV.
But, you accidentally did it say +4. Well +4 is .48x, so you're back to 150 dps, or maybe 180 with a level shift alpha. If you're lucky it's 180 with level shift + lore + procs + reactive .. and ~ 5 minutes.
Problem is, with LR's summons, you'll likely never be able to keep the Lore pets alive, which drops you back to procs and reactive vs heavy resitsance +4 for ((180 x 1.2 x .50) + (40 * 1.2 * .75)) x .48 ~= 70 dps. Time to recruit a few pets called defenders.
hmm. Well i do have acchiles in my gamblers cut, and i generally run SD/GD/GC and throw in one shot of DA every 10 seconds or so to refresh my full caps. No incarnate when i attempted LR at all. My gamblers cut has the -res proc and 5 makos including lethal. My soaring runs 6 makos and golden a full set of oblits (so 1 proc in each)
Soloing an AV (I'm going to assume without Lore pets) takes much less than any of the things listed above. A level 50 AV only regenerates in the range of 96 HP/s, well within reach of even the weakest scrappers, and some are extremely easy to tank, e.g. Chimera from the old Maria Jenkins arc, who's probably outdamaged by most IDF bosses.
Hello folks...
Assume for a moment that I'm crazy and want to roll up a scrapper that can solo an AV. Maybe that's just the ones at the end of certain arcs, maybe the ones from higher level TF's, I dunno. What I need to know is, what do I need to know? Is there a guide or anything with all the info in one place? I've searched the forums to no avail.
Here are the basic questions I'm wondering about:
-How much DPS is needed to overcome AV-level regeneration and resistances? Is there a clear-cut number of "your attack chain must do at least X DPS or you FAIL"?
-Does http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Envenomed_Dagger make a significant difference by debuffing the AV's regen?
-Defensively/mitigation-ly speaking, how good is good enough? Soft-capped defense? That plus a self-heal? Are resistances, regen bonuses, or mez output of any significance? I've heard of Fire Armor as a set for AV soloing and I just don't comprehend how that works with it being such a squishy set.
-Are there any other considerations I may not be aware of? Some subtle build quality that makes the difference?
Thanks in advance for any input or links you may provide!