Quote:
So you're reacting to something which not only wasn't present in my guide, but I explicitly argued against?|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
Ok had an errand to run so didn't make a simple build yet will get to it now.
Hey if you have the money by all means use it, i hear ya. My PvP emps are probably in the 15-20 bil range and my pain is the same. My blaster idk last time i added it up was 35 bil So I also have the money. I just hate the perception that you NEED to have it to build a good toon. Not saying you gave that but people seem to get that misconception. |
Well uh, okay. The expensive build thing is an interesting point though and its given me an idea. I think I'll be adding SO builds to all my guides, should help people looking for how the basics for a given set would work.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
My PvP Emps are built first for HP, so I am sacrificing other choices. I was just throwing out a number cause it was the first build I opened.
Also to clarify I have rez on 2 of 5 emps lol so I don't see it as a "needed" power it is defiantly team friendly and I do like to pair TP with it. Do I always tp and rez no i will mid aggro rez I think it's all situational. Just the same it's nice to have the tp and not everyone has the vet TP and there is a long recharge on it. I also think AP isn't needed but I like it for end game so I like that you put it last. |
As I said, I don't have a great deal of experience with Empathy so any helpful feedback is welcome.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
So the Emp/Fire build I have planned with 213.8% rech and softcap'd Def is over the top? 
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Quote:
I actually specifically said you didn't say that. Perhaps re read?|
Originally Posted by Silas
So you're reacting to something which not only wasn't present in my guide, but I explicitly argued against?
Well uh, okay. The expensive build thing is an interesting point though and its given me an idea. I think I'll be adding SO builds to all my guides, should help people looking for how the basics for a given set would work. |
An SO/Generic IO build imo would be a great addition to any guide. Especially with Freedom approaching.
As far as more team friendly stuff things like power boost and having things slotted for their effects rather than set bonuses is what I meant. Which wasn't many things in your build. Power boost I consider a must but that's me personally everyone has their own play style. It takes fort from 22.97% Def and 29.81% ToHit to 37.72% def and 48.25% ToHit, Veng goes from 38.29% Def and 20.4% heal to 62.87% Defense and 33.35% heal. It also increases the duration of holds, stun etc. which can be useful for a squishy.
Anyway I just did high recharge builds If you didn't care about recharge I might have went with 4 piece numi's more for the heal bonus.
I just want people to see there are so many options in price to still have different builds. I didn't include tp other I just based it off of what you had but with some minor alterations.
It would cost maybe 1-2 bil mostly due to the lotg's and the cheapie purple set. I am guesstimating your build is in the 12-15 bil range. So though they don't have the defense you have but at 1/6th-1/12th the price they are good builds.
Cheap build for recharge not perma hasten (0.66 sec off) but good enough should be able to fort 6 people, not built for any kind of defense, but has PB for yummy boosted fort even yummyier boosted veng, boosted heals and hold and stun duration.
Code:
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Perma hasten -AP which is losable since people have issues not dying when they use it. Dead emp is not very useful to the team.
Code:
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"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
I actually specifically said you didn't say that. Perhaps re read?
An SO/Generic IO build imo would be a great addition to any guide. Especially with Freedom approaching. As far as more team friendly stuff things like power boost and having things slotted for their effects rather than set bonuses is what I meant. Which wasn't many things in your build. Power boost I consider a must but that's me personally everyone has their own play style. It takes fort from 22.97% Def and 29.81% ToHit to 37.72% def and 48.25% ToHit, Veng goes from 38.29% Def and 20.4% heal to 62.87% Defense and 33.35% heal. It also increases the duration of holds, stun etc. which can be useful for a squishy. Anyway I just did high recharge builds If you didn't care about recharge I might have went with 4 piece numi's more for the heal bonus. I just want people to see there are so many options in price to still have different builds. I didn't include tp other I just based it off of what you had but with some minor alterations. It would cost maybe 1-2 bil mostly due to the lotg's and the cheapie purple set. I am guesstimating your build is in the 12-15 bil range. So though they don't have the defense you have but at 1/6th-1/12th the price they are good builds. Cheap build for recharge not perma hasten (0.66 sec off) but good enough should be able to fort 6 people, not built for any kind of defense, but has PB for yummy boosted fort even yummyier boosted veng, boosted heals and hold and stun duration. Code:
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I can sum it up real quick.
- If your Emp is staying safe away from combat because he's squishy then more likely than not you're not getting anywhere near 100% of the benefits of having said Empath on team.
- If your Emp is dead, who is getting buffs, noone.
Solution? Build a more durable Empath so you can keep up with and stay with and near your team, not being afraid of that AoE or that stray bit of agro heading your way.
Your builds are perfectly fine Philly, however you're still thinking in a straight line. Aside from an extra helping of Recharge, which is ridiculously easy to put into a build, all your numbers aren't significantly different than an Emp with SOs. From what I can tell your builds are too one dimensional and you're completely missing out on some of the ridiculous amounts of fun putting a little bit more time, effort, and INF into a single PvE toon can be. Sure your builds will work just fine, but that's all they are. Fine. Average. Sub-par. Mediocre.
All that being said it is still and always has been my believe that you don't really NEED tens of billions of INF to make an effective build, because in the end, the player makes the build, the build doesn't make the player. A good player can take an average build and play it very well and be wowawesomeandstuff, but what happens when you take that same players level of focus and concentration with an average build, and give them a wowawesome build to go with their wowawesome ability to play?
You get something that's even better, you get records, and steamrolling, and increased challenges in game that leave much of the populous behind a curve that few cross in this game.
Make no mistake, every person has their own preferences and playstyle that their build should be geared towards. Do I agree with the opinion of Silas on this subject? Yes, I do. Do I like his posted build? No I think it sucks, but mainly because it's not the way I'd do it, but that doesn't matter since it's his build and not mine. His end numbers may be good, I just don't like the way he went about slotting to get those numbers. But it's his build, built for his style which only he knows. So I can't really slam the build itself as much as say that I would do it much differently.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Force_
I can sum it up real quick.
- If your Emp is staying safe away from combat because he's squishy then more likely than not you're not getting anywhere near 100% of the benefits of having said Empath on team. - If your Emp is dead, who is getting buffs, noone. |
Ummm all but heal aura are ranged powers. If you are with the trollers, other defenders and blasters on the outskirts using ranged you are well with in range of all.
Unless you rely on rockin the aura there is no reason to be in melee range.
If you can't stay alive on an emp that isn't soft cap'd idk what to say i just don't have that issue...
On another note I was polite and asked a question of a build posted in a guide to empathy which one would reasonably assume is for players new to empathy which contains a rather expensive build. I offered an opinion and some alternate builds that cost a lot less. I am sorry if some people feel that is wrong and it seems unwanted. I also said that there are varied play styles and these where my personal opinions. I will just leave it at that GL with your guide Silas.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Quote:
If by that you mean Healing Aura, Recovery Aura and Regeneration Aura, you're missing a pluralization and it isn't clear.|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
Ummm all but heal aura are ranged powers.
|
I'm not going to say too much about the builds because I don't play any Empaths, but I don't let my squishies out of the house without decent Defense and better Net Endurance Gain.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
There is no good reason not to add more defense to any character, especially one that has little on their own. There's no way to guarantee you'll never be in a melee situation where you wish you'd have some more survivability, and I'd have to agree with Silas in that emps, just like any other support character, have attacks for a reason. If you're not using them, you're not doing 100% of your job on a team. If you find you don't have time to use them, you're not doing 100% of your job as an emp.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
Quote:
Ah, fair enough. Yeah, Power Boost is definitely an incredible boost to any Emp build. As you say, its personal prefererence. I decided that the buffs were good enough that I could skip PB and go for softcap s/l. |
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
As far as more team friendly stuff things like power boost and having things slotted for their effects rather than set bonuses is what I meant. Which wasn't many things in your build. Power boost I consider a must but that's me personally everyone has their own play style. It takes fort from 22.97% Def and 29.81% ToHit to 37.72% def and 48.25% ToHit, Veng goes from 38.29% Def and 20.4% heal to 62.87% Defense and 33.35% heal. It also increases the duration of holds, stun etc. which can be useful for a squishy.
Anyway I just did high recharge builds If you didn't care about recharge I might have went with 4 piece numi's more for the heal bonus. I just want people to see there are so many options in price to still have different builds. I didn't include tp other I just based it off of what you had but with some minor alterations. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
It would cost maybe 1-2 bil mostly due to the lotg's and the cheapie purple set. I am guesstimating your build is in the 12-15 bil range. So though they don't have the defense you have but at 1/6th-1/12th the price they are good builds.
Cheap build for recharge not perma hasten (0.66 sec off) but good enough should be able to fort 6 people, not built for any kind of defense, but has PB for yummy boosted fort even yummyier boosted veng, boosted heals and hold and stun duration. |
Pros:
- Powerboost yumminess
- High recharge
- Well slotted powers
Cons:
- No AoE damage
- Very little personal survivability, just has Dark Embrace which isn't well slotted
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
Perma hasten -AP which is losable since people have issues not dying when they use it. Dead emp is not very useful to the team.
|
I will be going ahead with the SO builds for all my guides, as you say it'll be a good help for a lot of people.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Force_
I can sum it up real quick.
- If your Emp is staying safe away from combat because he's squishy then more likely than not you're not getting anywhere near 100% of the benefits of having said Empath on team. - If your Emp is dead, who is getting buffs, noone. Solution? Build a more durable Empath so you can keep up with and stay with and near your team, not being afraid of that AoE or that stray bit of agro heading your way. Your builds are perfectly fine Philly, however you're still thinking in a straight line. Aside from an extra helping of Recharge, which is ridiculously easy to put into a build, all your numbers aren't significantly different than an Emp with SOs. From what I can tell your builds are too one dimensional and you're completely missing out on some of the ridiculous amounts of fun putting a little bit more time, effort, and INF into a single PvE toon can be. Sure your builds will work just fine, but that's all they are. Fine. Average. Sub-par. Mediocre. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Force_
All that being said it is still and always has been my believe that you don't really NEED tens of billions of INF to make an effective build, because in the end, the player makes the build, the build doesn't make the player. A good player can take an average build and play it very well and be wowawesomeandstuff, but what happens when you take that same players level of focus and concentration with an average build, and give them a wowawesome build to go with their wowawesome ability to play?
You get something that's even better, you get records, and steamrolling, and increased challenges in game that leave much of the populous behind a curve that few cross in this game. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Force_
Make no mistake, every person has their own preferences and playstyle that their build should be geared towards. Do I agree with the opinion of Silas on this subject? Yes, I do. Do I like his posted build? No I think it sucks, but mainly because it's not the way I'd do it, but that doesn't matter since it's his build and not mine. His end numbers may be good, I just don't like the way he went about slotting to get those numbers. But it's his build, built for his style which only he knows. So I can't really slam the build itself as much as say that I would do it much differently.
|
Edit:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phillygirl
Ummm all but heal aura are ranged powers. If you are with the trollers, other defenders and blasters on the outskirts using ranged you are well with in range of all.
Unless you rely on rockin the aura there is no reason to be in melee range. If you can't stay alive on an emp that isn't soft cap'd idk what to say i just don't have that issue... On another note I was polite and asked a question of a build posted in a guide to empathy which one would reasonably assume is for players new to empathy which contains a rather expensive build. I offered an opinion and some alternate builds that cost a lot less. I am sorry if some people feel that is wrong and it seems unwanted. I also said that there are varied play styles and these where my personal opinions. I will just leave it at that GL with your guide Silas. |
Your question was very reasonable, you've raised some very good points and I've appreciated your feedback. It seems we've just got fairly different playstyles (and thus build goals) but that's not a problem.
Thanks for your input
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
I wouldn't say I was overly harsh, just blunt. However it has been pointed out to me on many occasions that my level of nice isn't to hig
I can make an Emp/sonic to fit my own playstyle i you like, however much of what you did seemed to be personal preferance which is fine, just not what I'd do. I'll cook something up when I get home but no promises that you'll like it since it'll be but like I'd play it and not yourself.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Well, I'd be interested to see what you came up with. At first you said you think the build sucked, which is a statement as to the quality of the build. Then you said you just didn't like how I had slotted stuff and that it was personal preference.
So I'd like to see how you would do it differently, either to outright improve it or just how you'd build it according to your preferences.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Here's a defensive build, slapped together in the middle of the night:
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...26D87FED45EA5F
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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This build has merit, but the recharge makes me die a little inside. That said, softcapped S/L/E and ranged is impressive in and of it's own right. Nice job.
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Originally Posted by Aneko
Here's a defensive build, slapped together in the middle of the night:
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...26D87FED45EA5F |
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Changing the Numinas to Doctored Wounds might be better. I just threw in the largest Heal enhancement. My two goals were survivability and sustainability, in line with my earlier post about those. I'll probably fiddle with it some more, even though I doubt I'll actually make an Empath.
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Originally Posted by Stray Kitten
This build has merit, but the recharge makes me die a little inside. That said, softcapped S/L/E and ranged is impressive in and of it's own right. Nice job.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
If you continue to play around with it, might see if it's possible to slot fortitude for defense a little. As I said, the build has it's own merit, these are just the things I would personally shoot for if I were given this build and told to change as little as possible but make it "better".
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Originally Posted by Aneko
Changing the Numinas to Doctored Wounds might be better. I just threw in the largest Heal enhancement. My two goals were survivability and sustainability, in line with my earlier post about those. I'll probably fiddle with it some more, even though I doubt I'll actually make an Empath.
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Replacing the Recharges in Fortitude with Membranes would give 6% more Defense at a cost of two seconds of recharge.
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Originally Posted by Stray Kitten
If you continue to play around with it, might see if it's possible to slot fortitude for defense a little. As I said, the build has it's own merit, these are just the things I would personally shoot for if I were given this build and told to change as little as possible but make it "better".
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Just on a whim, I took Silas' build, made it cheaper while keeping the essential base attributes more or less the same. Recharge was the main thing that took a hit, but not enough to be of much detriment.
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This provides me with a segue into another point of conversation. If you find a build that you like, but can't afford, there are substitutes for purples and PVPIOs that work for most builds with a little finagling.
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I would probably go with the Membranes and see about increasing overall global recharge. That's just me though.
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Originally Posted by Aneko
Replacing the Recharges in Fortitude with Membranes would give 6% more Defense at a cost of two seconds of recharge.
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I've only ever slotted one PvP IO (and no purples), and that one was given to me. I think I do well enough without them.
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Originally Posted by Stray Kitten
This provides me with a segue into another point of conversation. If you find a build that you like, but can't afford, there are substitutes for purples and PVPIOs that work for most builds with a little finagling.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
Since I know some people think S/L + Ranged is overkill, try this:|
Originally Posted by Stray Kitten
I would probably go with the Membranes and see about increasing overall global recharge. That's just me though.
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http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...6AFC0F105DE545
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
I thought I'd drop in my controller build here. I went Illusion/Empathy. That combo has a definite playstyle strength, but also limitations.
Illusion/empathy covers for empathy's lack of personal mitigation with distracting pets and invisibility. As much of Illusion's work is spot control with pets doing lots of the heavy lifting, it frees up empathy to be more ready to react. Both sets benefit substantially from increased recharge.
The weakness is that the pet AI is not always as reliable as some hard control, which is scarce in illusion. Without this, the mitigation to layer with empathy's more reactive style makes awareness more a priority. (You can't just lock things down, and buff/heal according to the little that get through.) Likewise, you have no debuffs to increase the effectiveness of your untouchable pets.
I call illusion/empathy the 'maker of awesome,' as the fantastic buffs and invulnerable pets mean in the right hands the combo can be surrounded by many awesome forces that don't die- but the controller themselves is not getting much of that. 'Tis a trade off, but not a bad one at all.
Anywise, the build:
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Allow me to clerify. If I only saw your final numbers without looking at the build itself I'd say it was rockin'. However having looked at the build I see oddly placed powers, and wasted slots. It's hard to elaborate when posting from a cellphone lol so I'll get into it a bit more this afternoon. I'm sure the build work fine and generally does what you want it to do.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Well, I'd be interested to see what you came up with. At first you said you think the build sucked, which is a statement as to the quality of the build. Then you said you just didn't like how I had slotted stuff and that it was personal preference.
So I'd like to see how you would do it differently, either to outright improve it or just how you'd build it according to your preferences. |
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Aneko, Cool builds. Very interesting indeed, pretty neat to see a build softcapped to s/l and ranged. I would do a couple things differently, but its a very interesting proof of concept build.
The second one I like a lot more, mainly because you've taken Hasten, have Fortitude slotted for defense and a decent chunk more recharge without the build becoming way more expensive. Very solid build.
Stray, nice build, thanks for sharing it. Yeah, no build really needs purples or PvP IOs, as I see it their principal benefit is getting high recharge. It's possible to get a great build with high recharge without, but purples and PvP IOs often let you to turbocharge that bit more.
Seldom, Thanks for sharing, very nice build. Ill/Emps are definitely very powerful suppor characters. The arguable 'weakness' so to speak of Empathy for Defenders is that your only way to prevent damage is via defense. If a hit gets past that defense, all you've got is hp recovery tools. A control secondary (or tank pets like PA) help a lot in diversifying your abilities to keep a team alive and kickin'.
Force, Alright then. Well as I said before, I would appreciate seeing how you would do it better to improve it.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
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Still some oddities that I wouldn't have done, but stat-wise it's much more in line with something I would personally play.
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Originally Posted by Aneko
Since I know some people think S/L + Ranged is overkill, try this:
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...6AFC0F105DE545 |
This is basically what I have planned for my Emp/Fire Defender come I21.
All that needs to be fixed is getting Fire Blast for defenders into Mids. Which, if you look at the power selections from Ice Blast you can easily enough get an idea of what powers I'll be choosing from Fire Blast in the corresponding power selections. Blast, Ball, Blaze, Inferno, Aim.
Silas this should be easy enough for you to switch into Sonic and take a look at the differences between yours and mine. It's perfect for me and what I want it to do. Specifically, melt faces while still being yayanEmpath and being as effective as possible with both. As always with any build not everyone is going to agree everything that goes into a build. Some people like PBU, some people want Ranged Def, some people want Veng, everyone wants somethin' different if they really think about it. This however is specifically geared towards me and my play-style and what I want. So to each his own, this is just how Force be doin' it.
Code:
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Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Ok had an errand to run so didn't make a simple build yet will get to it now.
Hey if you have the money by all means use it, i hear ya. My PvP emps are probably in the 15-20 bil range and my pain is the same. My blaster idk last time i added it up was 35 bil So I also have the money. I just hate the perception that you NEED to have it to build a good toon. Not saying you gave that but people seem to get that misconception.
My PvP Emps are built first for HP, so I am sacrificing other choices. I was just throwing out a number cause it was the first build I opened.
Also to clarify I have rez on 2 of 5 emps lol so I don't see it as a "needed" power it is defiantly team friendly and I do like to pair TP with it. Do I always tp and rez no i will mid aggro rez I think it's all situational. Just the same it's nice to have the tp and not everyone has the vet TP and there is a long recharge on it. I also think AP isn't needed but I like it for end game so I like that you put it last.
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