So confused, not even sure where/how to start
Plasma's guide in the Kheldian Guides sticky is a good place to start. Despite being written for I8 it stands up surprisingly well to give you a basic idea of how to get started. It is pretty much required reading for anyone new to Kheldians. Keep in mind though that Kheldians are way more awesome now than they were back then in many ways and some formerly human powers like Hasten and the inherents now apply to all the forms.
The main difference between Kheldians is that Peacebringers are better at soloing and in groups tend to make up for the weaknesses in a party thanks to the Cosmic Balance inherent while Warshades can do more damage but are slightly more dependant on being in groups for survivability and while in groups they play to the strengths of a party with the Dark Sustenance inherent.
Another way to look at is that PBs play like Off Tanks while Warshades are more like Brutes or Scrappers (pure damage dealers) except that both have ranged attacks of course.
I think you have that absolutely backwards. Perma eclipsed warshades can solo pretty much anything except AV's on +2/x8 or higher.
As a reference, just a week or so ago my Warshade ran a bunch of Borea missions on +4/x8 with a level 50, also IO'd Peacebringer (played by an experienced player.) To give you an idea of how that went.... When we were almost done with the first mission, he got really excited and said "I hit one!"
I'll give you a good place to start if you're willing to try a shapeshifting Warshade.
Read the guide in my sig.
At its height, The MFing Warshade will have 300% damage bonus, 85% resist all, well over 50% tohit bonus, three damage dealing pets in tow, a ranged AoE attack chain, and the ability to refill both bars more often than I blink. It can also perma stun ten targets, perma hold one, and even stun bosses in a single shot. It has mez protection with an 80% hitpoints bonus on demand. It can even shrug off defeat twice every five minutes. Have I captured your interest yet? |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Warshades have one driving purpose and that is to create more bodies. Bodies give you health, bodies give you endurance, bodies give you pets and bodies give you crashless mini-nukes.
Second only to creating more bodies is finding more live mobs, live mobs give you resistance, live mobs give you endurance, live mobs give you damage, live mobs give you tohit and, most importantly of all, live mobs give you more bodies.
A well built Warshade on a map swarming with mobs is probably the most fun you can have in this game.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed
I think you have that absolutely backwards. Perma eclipsed warshades can solo pretty much anything except AV's on +2/x8 or higher.
As a reference, just a week or so ago my Warshade ran a bunch of Borea missions on +4/x8 with a level 50, also IO'd Peacebringer (played by an experienced player.) To give you an idea of how that went.... When we were almost done with the first mission, he got really excited and said "I hit one!" |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Besides which I sure he meant before he gets to level 50 or spends 100s of millions? on a build to get perma Eclipse.
I hear this all the time on this forum yet it never jibes with my playing experience. Must be a lot of people in the game who suck at Warshades. Almost every time I've been on a team with a Warshade they end up dying while I just keep on going like the energizer bunny
![]() |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Again, this would prove nothing. Peacebringers are more like tanks because of all the stand alone heals they get while Warshades do more damage but in my experience seem more complicated for people to play well. For a newbie I'd definitely go with the PB first even if the Warshade is better when IO'd out at higher levels.
|
I'm not saying PB's are bad- I have a PB that I enjoy playing, and it's much more challenging to stay alive when there is no way to permanently cap resistance to all damage, or hit the damage cap regularly... Warshades live longer and kill faster in almost any situation... The exception being single target AV fights.
Kheldians are complicated no matter which way you go. If you're looking for a straightforward character without a huge learning curve, Peacebringers and Warshades aren't for you.
Edit: Talk about heals? Warshades get Stygian Circle, the most effective self heal I've ever seen. It's so effective that it becomes inadvisable to take our targeted heal (which we also get) because we don't need it.
Not only is Stygian Circle awesome, but it recharges so fast you won't know what to do with it. Peacebringers would probably even get more mileage out of it since they take so much more damage than warshades do...Once again, except every so often when light form is up.
Alls I can say is that the only ATs that I've regularly encountered which can outlast a Peacebringer in a firefight are Tanks. Maybe most people with Warshades just never come onto these forums to read the guides or just aren't suited for that kind of edge of your seat style of playing.
Alls I can say is that the only ATs that I've regularly encountered which can outlast a Peacebringer in a firefight are Tanks. Maybe most people with Warshades just never come onto these forums to read the guides or just aren't suited for that kind of edge of your seat style of playing.
|
Or maybe you're making generalizations about an entire archetype you've evidently never played based on your limited experience encountering people who were doing it wrong.
That would be like me saying "Blasters do less damage than defenders" because I was once teamed with a blaster on a trial account trying to figure out how brawl worked while the defender on our team was killing stuff.
Edit: Talk about heals? Warshades get Stygian Circle, the most effective self heal I've ever seen. It's so effective that it becomes inadvisable to take our targeted heal (which we also get) because we don't need it.
|
I think the truth of the matter is the Kheldians are, on average, more difficult to play well than any other AT, due in no small part to their versatility (and thus complexity). As a consequence, a larger proportion of Kheldians than other ATs are going to be "bad"; it's much easier to be a bad Warshade than a bad tank because if you screw up your tank build and don't really know what you're doing then you're still a huge sack of HP with half-decent def/resistances and Gauntlet, whereas if you screw up a Warshade and don't know what you're doing then you spend 95% of your time lying face-down on the floor.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed
I think the truth of the matter is the Kheldians are, on average, more difficult to play well than any other AT, due in no small part to their versatility (and thus complexity).
|
A Warshade can be a great many things, but "simple" and "easy" are not among them.
To counter Irresponsible's complete ignorance on the subject, I submit this as my evidence. In virtually every quantifiable aspect, Warshades outperform Peacebringers. The builds this math is done on are completely SOs.
Warshades are better than Peacebringers, but not because of outliers that spend billions of influence on their builds.
Warshades are just better than Peacebringers.
One of the more recent USTREAMs, however, has a developer admitting they are aware of this disparity and Kheldians are "to be looked at." There is yet hope.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
You shouldn't worry about Warshades getting a nerf. They are not demonstrably better than any other AT consistently. A lot of their power lies with "the right conditions," and it is the existence of those conditions which keep us balanced.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
One of the more recent USTREAMs, however, has a developer admitting they are aware of this disparity and Kheldians are "to be looked at." There is yet hope.
|
I gave up on those because my kheldian questions seemed like they would be infinitely ignored anyways. Was this something actually discussed, or just a quick comment made before moving along? And was it just in reference to balancing Peacebringers with Warshades, or of the overall need for both AT's to be balanced with the rest of the game?
I gave up on those because my kheldian questions seemed like they would be infinitely ignored anyways. Was this something actually discussed, or just a quick comment made before moving along? And was it just in reference to balancing Peacebringers with Warshades, or of the overall need for both AT's to be balanced with the rest of the game?
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Insanely more difficult.
A Warshade can be a great many things, but "simple" and "easy" are not among them. To counter Irresponsible's complete ignorance on the subject, I submit this as my evidence. In virtually every quantifiable aspect, Warshades outperform Peacebringers. The builds this math is done on are completely SOs. Warshades are better than Peacebringers, but not because of outliers that spend billions of influence on their builds. Warshades are just better than Peacebringers. One of the more recent USTREAMs, however, has a developer admitting they are aware of this disparity and Kheldians are "to be looked at." There is yet hope. |
Wow that's harsh. Just honestly relating my experiences with most of the Warshades I've encountered. Good luck to you OP whatever you decide.
Wow that's harsh. Just honestly relating my experiences with most of the Warshades I've encountered.
|
ig·no·rance /ˈignərəns/
Noun: Lack of knowledge or information: "he acted in ignorance of basic procedures"
You've demonstrated that you are ignorant to how a Warshade performs, particularly highlighted by your comment that "even if the Warshade is better when IO'd out at higher levels." I have refuted your claim with the math that has been done to prove that Warshades are indeed superior to Peacebringers on SOs. It has nothing to do with outliers and high end builds. The AT is just broken.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
When I first unlocked the Kheldians, I made one of each, to see which one I liked better. (Both of them wearing very magicky outfits - my PB with the high-collared magic cape, the WS with the skull mask and baron jacket)
I had a terrible time with my Warshade. I died a half-dozen times on the first mission arc, against regular troops and Void Hunters. I never managed to complete it beforeI got completely fed up. My Peacebringer had no such problems. She tore through enemies like crazy, even the Void Hunters.
Aside from that, I like flying and hovering much better than teleporting, so the Peacebringer had that going for her, too.
I don't play her much, so the Peacebringer is still only in the high teens, but the Warshade was deleted long before he even hit level 5. He never even got to the point of learning Orbiting Death (and I don't think it would have helped me more than Essence Boost, since I was trying to stay at range with both classes).
Did I do something wrong? Possibly. At that level, the two classes are more similar than not, so it should have been equally easy with both of them. Do I want to remake him and try again? ... not really. The Warshade may have the numbers, but I just like the Peacebringer more.
My argument is only that Peacebringers are somewhat easier to play because we get 3 heals by level 22 while Warshades only get 2 and they require corpses or enemies to work and they can actually miss. Also the Eclipse power isn't available until 38 and presumably most players won't have the IOs to make it perma until some time after that. The numbers you refer to don't seem to take into account that the nature of the mitigation available to Warshades requires a little more work while Peacebringers just have to press buttons. I'm actually trying to give you guys a compliment by saying it requires more skill to do what you have done.
Yes I've played a Warshade but haven't gotten one all the way to 50 yet. One of these days!
When I first unlocked the Kheldians, I made one of each, to see which one I liked better. (Both of them wearing very magicky outfits - my PB with the high-collared magic cape, the WS with the skull mask and baron jacket)
I had a terrible time with my Warshade. I died a half-dozen times on the first mission arc, against regular troops and Void Hunters. I never managed to complete it beforeI got completely fed up. My Peacebringer had no such problems. She tore through enemies like crazy, even the Void Hunters. Aside from that, I like flying and hovering much better than teleporting, so the Peacebringer had that going for her, too. I don't play her much, so the Peacebringer is still only in the high teens, but the Warshade was deleted long before he even hit level 5. He never even got to the point of learning Orbiting Death (and I don't think it would have helped me more than Essence Boost, since I was trying to stay at range with both classes). Did I do something wrong? Possibly. At that level, the two classes are more similar than not, so it should have been equally easy with both of them. Do I want to remake him and try again? ... not really. The Warshade may have the numbers, but I just like the Peacebringer more. |
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed
There was a nerf to Voids? How long ago was this and what was done to them?
|
So basically, unless you're caught unawares in Nova and forget how to change forms, Voids/Quantums are no longer any more of a threat than any other mob - in fact in later levels they're actually *less* of a threat than most of the other mobs due to their limited attacks.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed
The way I've always looked at it (and this is admittedly an old-school view) is:
1> All flavors of Kheld require more skill to play well than the basic ATs for several
reasons: The Forms are role-specific mini-ATs in themselves, and are situationally
optimised, so using them well at the right times is vital. Also, some powers work
in forms and some don't and you have to know that and act accordingly - again more
challenging than basic ATs. Khelds have more powers but the same slot count, so
building them is harder - you have to pay more attention to slot allocation.
Finally, Khelds are the *only* ATs that have kryptonite mobs - ie. mobs that are
specifically designed and optimised for killing inexperienced/unwary Khelds and they
show up everywhere you turn - again, more challenging than basic ATs.
2> PeaceBringers are more self-contained. They have no holes they cannot plug
themselves. They are steadier and more consistent in playstyle. That said, the
math is right - they're best at doing standard content at standard difficulty
levels - you don't read about PBs running +4/8 difficulty settings, because it
doesn't happen... Otoh, PBs can be good in PvP because they have all the basic
tools they need to do the job.
3> Warshades are more dependant on external factors, most notably corpses.
When they can generate/obtain what they need, they are capable of amazing
things. When they can't, they're toast. Not surprisingly a WS is generally free rep
in PvP. Typically, they have higher highs and lower lows than a PB. In theory,
those swings should average out with steady PB's from a balance perspective,
but we as players have a tendancy to remember highs (and lows) better
than we do averages...
I disagree with the term "better" wrt to WS vs PB, preferring "different". The
simple math doesn't tell the entire story (although I do feel that PBs specifically
and Khelds in general, could use some Dev attention).
WS to me are like my Rad/Elec defender. When things work, it is awesome and
even red/purple mobs are in trouble. When things go south, even blue mobs
can kill him.
My PB would virtually never die against a spawn of blue mobs, but would virtually
never win against a spawn of red/purples. Whites/Yellows are his bread and butter.
Personally, I like my PBs better than my Shades *because* they're more consistent.
Many folks like Shades better because they are chaotic, with a mix of Epic Victories,
and some Epic Defeats.
YMMV.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
I've always stayed away from the Kheldians because they seemed overly complicated. Recently, for some reason, I've felt that I need to give them a try. I've spent the last 2 days bumping around the forums and reading the posts, but I'm still not sure how to approach making one.
To start with, other than power differences (one is dark, one is "light" of sorts) I can't figure out what the difference is between Peacebringers and Warshades. Looking at the powers, it seems like PBs might be blasterlike and WSs more controllerish?
The different forms. Are tri-form builds superior to two form or human only? Is one easier to play for a newbie like myself?
Basically, I'm just looking for a foothold to get started and figure these things out so any advice would be greatly appreciated.