Necessary no, doable yes, usefulness debatable.
Here is a very quick sample build capped to Ranged. Spiritual Core puts it at about .2 seconds from perma army. If you grab Ageless as an incarnate power it should lift you over the top most of the time. Other than the LoTGs and maybe Miracle I built cheap. Note the build loses 2.17% defense when attacked due to invisibility partially suppressing.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
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ill TA: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blind -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(5), HO:Perox(13), Dmg-I(50)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Deceive -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(5), CoPers-Conf%(7), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(9), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(9)
Level 4: Spectral Wounds -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17)
Level 6: Flash -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(17), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(29), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(29), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(48)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), DefBuff-I(48)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(A), FtnHyp-Plct%(43), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(46), FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(46), FtnHyp-Acc/Rchg(48)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- C'Arms-Acc/Rchg(A), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(19), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg(19), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), RechRdx-I(21), S'bndAl-Build%(27)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(23), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(23), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(25), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(25), Stpfy-KB%(27)
Level 24: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- HO:Cyto(A)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(31), RedFtn-EndRdx(31), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(31), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(34), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(34)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(36), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Dam%(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(39), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(39), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(39), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(43), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Fire Ball -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dam%(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Fire Shield -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 49: Rise of the Phoenix -- Erad-Dmg/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), Erad-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(40)
My opinion from playing my Ill/TA? Defense really isn't needed -- Slot for max recharge instead. I send in PA, then stand back out of melee and fire off my debuffs and ranged attacks. If any foe even looks like he might try to look at me funny, he gets Deceived, or Ice Arrow+Blind. I even skipped Flash because I always stay out of melee.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
IMO with Illusion getting enough Recharge to get perma Phantoms is a cut off point, no real reason to push higher than that unless your secondary demands it. In this case its possible to get perma PA and high defense so no reason not to. Note that in the build I posted perma PA is achievable by swapping out the Soulbound Allegiance IO. I tend to think the .2 seconds of downtime isn't a big deal tho and the IO is better because the substantial defenses would probably keep you safe from most AV attacks anyway during the few seconds they are allowed to attack you. If you do somehow die, Rise of the Phoenix puts you right back in the fight.
Nice build Tex!
I agree that it is a well-done build that meets the goals . . . but it skips several powers that I like and make frequent use of in my Ill/TA -- Ice Arrow lets me quickly hold bosses. Glue Arrow. I prefer SI to GI. No travel power -- (Yes, you can use Ninja Run, but I prefer something else.)
Sacrifices have to be made to get to high defense, and that means giving up some of the ability to Control. I just don't think an Ill/TA really needs all that defense vs. the added control and utility.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
any ranged def build is gonna look close to O_T's. I don't think ranged defense sits well with this build. Sm/leth defense would be pretty easy, but idk if I'd even do that.
If Rock Armor or Frozen Armor fits your theme, then go for sm/leth defense.
I don't see anyway of getting a "good" ranged/defense/Ill/TA build
perma jump is ---> /up 1
The issue I've always had with TA is that it takes so many arrows to debuff everything that I hit a wall on my willingness to use them. Glue Arrow definitely falls into this category for me (especially with Oil Slick Arrow at 66% up time). Ice Arrow on a high recharge Illusionist feels especially unnecessary, as its only saving you about 1 second of cast time after you factor in redraw. (You can also swap Flash with Ice Arrow and have the exact same build, but I wouldn't). Flash Arrow might be useful sometimes... but not really on a low defense build.
But everyone will take a slightly different tack. IMO though once you kit out if you aren't occasionally drawing aggro to yourself you're slacking. 
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Mace Mastery offers a S/L/E shield. It requires a side switch (and back if you want to stay on blue side) and the completion of the villain patron arc in order to unlock it.|
Originally Posted by Hindenburg
If Rock Armor or Frozen Armor fits your theme, then go for sm/leth defense.
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OP your best bet is to go S/L DEF if softcapping is your goal. As you can see there are some sacrifices made to softcap for RANGED DEF. The tradeoffs for going S/L would be a little more forgiving considering that the epic pools offering S/L DEF can grant you a considerable amount of DEF to work with.
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The way I have played my Ill/TA minimizes redraw to a degree . . . send in PA, and then stay back to fire a round of debuff arrows: Acid, Disruption, Glue, PGA. I have a bind set up for Disruption on one of my mouse buttons to make the click-target-click much faster. Glue Arrow helps keep foes in the area of the other debuffs, and catches adds as well -- plus it keeps the foes at range, keeping me safer. At the end of that cycle, I decide if I need to hold a boss with Ice Arrow or immobilize someone with Entangle Arrow (mostly used for AVs). Since I finish that cycle with Ice Arrow, there is no added re-draw when I hit my Blind-SW-Fire Blast-SW attack chain. I use that chain to take out foes, and may throw in Spectral Terror if needed. As long as you bunch your use of the arrows together, the redraw becomes a minimal problem.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The issue I've always had with TA is that it takes so many arrows to debuff everything that I hit a wall on my willingness to use them. Glue Arrow definitely falls into this category for me (especially with Oil Slick Arrow at 66% up time). Ice Arrow on a high recharge Illusionist feels especially unnecessary, as its only saving you about 1 second of cast time after you factor in redraw. (You can also swap Flash with Ice Arrow and have the exact same build, but I wouldn't). Flash Arrow might be useful sometimes... but not really on a low defense build.
But everyone will take a slightly different tack. IMO though once you kit out if you aren't occasionally drawing aggro to yourself you're slacking. |
The problem with Oil Slick is that it causes the PA to run out of the fire area. They can attack from range if you are looking for PA to do damage, but it is not great to have them run away if you were looking on PA to do the tanking. On teams with a decent tank, I use Oil Slick every time it is up. But solo and small team, I limit my use a bit more -- often when PA are about to despawn.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
Mace Mastery offers a S/L/E shield. It requires a side switch (and back if you want to stay on blue side) and the completion of the villain patron arc in order to unlock it.
OP your best bet is to go S/L DEF if softcapping is your goal. As you can see there are some sacrifices made to softcap for RANGED DEF. The tradeoffs for going S/L would be a little more forgiving considering that the epic pools offering S/L DEF can grant you a considerable amount of DEF to work with. |
Just be careful to keep in mind that S/L defense often means S/L defense without S/L resistance, vs Ranged defense with S/L resistance (typically in the 50% range). It's not quite as clear cut as Ranged vs S/L Defense.
(Some few builds can manage S/L resist with S/L defense. I don't know how possible it is on Controllers because to do it and keep recharge up normally takes 6 slots from the Obliteration set. I managed to do it on a Radiation/Fire Blaster with 4 Oblit sets but it cost so much I never actually implemented it.)
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
The way I have played my Ill/TA minimizes redraw to a degree . . . send in PA, and then stay back to fire a round of debuff arrows: Acid, Disruption, Glue, PGA. I have a bind set up for Disruption on one of my mouse buttons to make the click-target-click much faster. Glue Arrow helps keep foes in the area of the other debuffs, and catches adds as well -- plus it keeps the foes at range, keeping me safer. At the end of that cycle, I decide if I need to hold a boss with Ice Arrow or immobilize someone with Entangle Arrow (mostly used for AVs). Since I finish that cycle with Ice Arrow, there is no added re-draw when I hit my Blind-SW-Fire Blast-SW attack chain. I use that chain to take out foes, and may throw in Spectral Terror if needed. As long as you bunch your use of the arrows together, the redraw becomes a minimal problem.
The problem with Oil Slick is that it causes the PA to run out of the fire area. They can attack from range if you are looking for PA to do damage, but it is not great to have them run away if you were looking on PA to do the tanking. On teams with a decent tank, I use Oil Slick every time it is up. But solo and small team, I limit my use a bit more -- often when PA are about to despawn. |
I won't argue with your style of play.
I just think slotting up a whole extra hold power to save approx 1.04 seconds of animation time (1.76 cast time vs 2.71 recharge in Blind) is a little excessive unless you are doing it for the set bonuses, especially since Ice Arrow has such a long base recharge and no damage or secondary effects. I do usually take it leveling up, though.
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If we make an assumption that they both take Aid Self and slot it in a similar fashion I would agree with your statement.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Just be careful to keep in mind that S/L defense often means S/L defense without S/L resistance, vs Ranged defense with S/L resistance (typically in the 50% range). It's not quite as clear cut as Ranged vs S/L Defense.
(Some few builds can manage S/L resist with S/L defense. I don't know how possible it is on Controllers because to do it and keep recharge up normally takes 6 slots from the Obliteration set. I managed to do it on a Radiation/Fire Blaster with 4 Oblit sets but it cost so much I never actually implemented it.) |
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Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
If we make an assumption that they both take Aid Self and slot it in a similar fashion I would agree with your statement.
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I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain please?
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Sure thing!|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain please?
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Given two smilar builds, both with Aid Self: if the primary difference is one is soft capped Ranged DEF and ~50% S/L RES; the other with soft capped S/L DEF, I believe the first build would have a longer "immortality line" (a higher degree of survivability).
I think that was the point you were making. If so, I agree with you if and only if they both can take Aid Self. If only the later can take Aid Self I believe the numbers would be very very close. So close that I believe it would come down to a factor of recovery rates and endurance available.
I don't have the numbers in front of me, so the above is a "guestimate".
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
Sure thing!
Given two smilar builds, both with Aid Self: if the primary difference is one is soft capped Ranged DEF and ~50% S/L RES; the other with soft capped S/L DEF, I believe the first build would have a longer "immortality line" (a higher degree of survivability). I think that was the point you were making. If so, I agree with you if and only if they both can take Aid Self. If only the later can take Aid Self I believe the numbers would be very very close. So close that I believe it would come down to a factor of recovery rates and endurance available. I don't have the numbers in front of me, so the above is a "guestimate". |
I see; thanks.
I hadn't really thought of it with and without Aid Self. If getting a S/L Defense armor, dropping Fighting, and picking up Aid Self is viable, then it could work. A "problem" of sorts with the Aid Powers is that they don't IO quite as nicely as the Fighting pool does. I doubt the Fighting pool would be half as popular if you couldn't get such amazing bonuses out of it actually. The Aids tend to force you down a route of Defense OR Recharge but not both.
My point was only that, with or without respect to other powers in the set, a capped S/L toon with low S/L resistance is a different beast from a capped Ranged toon with moderate resistance. Generally speaking the Ranged toon is taking less of a gamble unless the situation is a farm. Specific enemies that punch straight through defense and deal S/L damage are Devouring Earth and Rularuu. The idea is not to be a Tanker but to be able to survive pot shots and ambushes long enough to set up or recover position.
Which way to go ultimately is up to the player. I tend to prefer Ranged simply because it is possible to cap it and still grab a Resistance armor and high recharge. I've never successfully capped S/L defense with a Resistance APP armor with a Controller and had it have enough Recharge (not saying its not possible but it's hard). Any time you kit a character for defense you are probably dropping something; how much is too much is up to you. I tend to prefer lots and lots of defenses because I play like a psychopath sometimes and at other times barely pay attention to the game.
I was looking at the numbers in Mids for Illusion/Trick Arrow and noticed that softcapping is pretty much impossible without some crazy slotting, which I admit that I'm no good at.
I want to essentially make my first uber-awesome long-term omega-50. I've spent so much time toying around with silly character concepts, and I just want to go the full distance with one, no holds and no costs barred.
Illusion and Trick Arrow are some fun sets, but I've never tried them together. But for all the "godly" builds, softcapping seems to be a necessity.
I can eke out about 25% on all energy types and positionals, and a decent chunk more on S/L defense. But as an artillery configuration, I would like to cap my ranged.
But Spectral Terror got me to thinking. It applies a -15% to hit buff with it's fear. Does that apply even if a boss/eb/av/etc have enough mez protection to resist the fear? Along with an interface for -To Hit, that could cap me effectively if I understand the numbers right.
Is it possible, or am I missing some vital ingredient?