Interesting thought. You ought to account for the fact that anyone who runs the Mortimer Kal Strike Force is effectively an Agent of Prometheus though.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I'm almost flattered.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Interesting thought. You ought to account for the fact that anyone who runs the Mortimer Kal Strike Force is effectively an Agent of Prometheus though.
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I would think quite the opposite - Prometheus might have something interesting to say to those who have previously stolen some of his power.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Interesting thought. You ought to account for the fact that anyone who runs the Mortimer Kal Strike Force is effectively an Agent of Prometheus though.
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Prometheus comes off somewhat like a dick, if you'll pardon my language. I don't know why whenever there has to be co-op content and ambiguous morality, City of Heroes always resorts to making everyone a jerkass. They're kind of good guys, since all co-op content is hero content in disguise, but they can't ACT like heroes, so they resort to making them Heroic Jerks.
The reason I bring this up is because I feel that more power should make us more independent and more the masters of our own fate. Ideally, I'd like to see Incarnates transcend Prometheus, transcend the well and actually fulfil Ramiel's prophecy of an Incarnate so powerful he/she can break the laws of time and space, push past any opposition and chart the destiny of an entire world.
I sincerely hope that the writers can break away from this "serving NPCs" rut that they've been in since CoV came out.
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All of that said, I'd run such missions if they existed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Have you done any of the recent villain content? Especially Mortimer Kal (or at least his special tip mission)?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I sincerely hope that the writers can break away from this "serving NPCs" rut that they've been in since CoV came out.
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Ironically, newer villain content seems to be the one place this has been the most rectified. We seem to have gotten through to the writers that "villain" is not the same thing as "lackey," "mercenary" or "thug." And this is a good thing.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Have you done any of the recent villain content? Especially Mortimer Kal (or at least his special tip mission)?
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The same doesn't seem to have filtered over to heroes, however, nor Praetorians, for that matter. Their entire gameplay revolves around finding someone stronger than you, serving him or her until you're strong enough to find someone even stronger to serve. If it's not the Praetorian Guard and the Midnight Club and Vanguard and Ourobors it's the Well and the Letter Writer and Prometheus and such.
I yearn for the day when our characters are allowed to be that guy/girl in the memory crystal, who broke the laws of time and space and altered history, presumably of his/her own accord. I'd REALLY hate for it to be revealed that we were sent there to do that by someone even more important.
Heroes very much CAN be the biggest thing in their own stories, answerable only to those they choose to be answerable to. The contact system - as Tips stand to evidence - does not require that we have people to serve. We can and should act on our own initiative without Ramiel or Prometheus or anyone else telling us to.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I haven't gotten that feeling from the game at all.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The same doesn't seem to have filtered over to heroes, however, nor Praetorians, for that matter. Their entire gameplay revolves around finding someone stronger than you, serving him or her until you're strong enough to find someone even stronger to serve. If it's not the Praetorian Guard and the Midnight Club and Vanguard and Ourobors it's the Well and the Letter Writer and Prometheus and such.
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An enormous amount of hero content has always been written as your hero working alongside your contact, ala Batman and Jim Gordon, and that's only gotten stronger with arcs like Ray Coolings'.
Praetorians actually get a number of arcs that make you feel like you're part of something bigger, making Powers Division actually operate like a supergroup, and so forth. Plus the Power storyline tends to be more about you beating the system. I haven't done Resistance content in some time, but I don't recall any instances where your character is somehow treated as lower than the NPCs.
To be perfectly honest, I've never understood this kind of hostility towards contacts. Outside of a few notable, badly written ones, I simply have never felt like my character was serving or otherwise beneath a contact.
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Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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An enormous amount of the OLD content, yes. But look at how many factions your hero is a "member of" by the time you hit 50 - the Midnight Club for Cimerora, Ourobors for Flashback, Vanguard because you join them implicitly as soon as you set foot in their base and use their portals, and now Prometheus. I don't want to be "an agent of" anything.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
An enormous amount of hero content has always been written as your hero working alongside your contact, ala Batman and Jim Gordon, and that's only gotten stronger with arcs like Ray Coolings'.
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Contacts like Maxwell Christopher, Crimson, Harvey Maylor... Even Willy Wheeler on the villain side, those contacts I enjoy. They're sources of information, I go to them, learn what I need and go act on it. Contacts like Levantera, Montague Castanella, the Menders and so forth... Not so much. I don't want to be part of a "super group." I don't want to be part of an organisation, agency or whatever else you want to call it. I don't want to be acting on anybody's orders. Not by the time I'm shooting for Incarnate powers. Not by the time I'm arm-wrestling giant robots. Not by the time I'm saving "a thousand worlds."
Let me put it into perspective: The Statesman, while leader of one or two hero organisations, doesn't really answer to anyone. That doesn't make him a villain because he still respects law and order, but his power makes him an agency in himself. While people don't go to pray to him like they would a god (like Hequat or Lughebu, say), he is still a free agent who cooperates with mankind for their benefit, but who isn't OBLIGATED to do so.
In essence, whenever I've seen the Statesman, or indeed any of the Srviving Eight get involved in old content, they're kind of like the old master, someone who you go to to ask for help, who is strong enough to handle himself, but who is in no way obligated to help you unless he actually chooses to do so. Even in Maria's new arc, I can't "requisition" help from the Freedom Phalanx. They're just doing a favour for Maria because they're old friends, and later on looking for the Statesman.
Simply put, a character with Incarnate power should be independent, and not "an agent of" anyone or anything.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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None of the contacts you mention hand out strict orders and pretty much operate like any other contact...the closest might Levantera, I guess, but considering Vanguard is a military organization...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Contacts like Maxwell Christopher, Crimson, Harvey Maylor... Even Willy Wheeler on the villain side, those contacts I enjoy. They're sources of information, I go to them, learn what I need and go act on it. Contacts like Levantera, Montague Castanella, the Menders and so forth... Not so much. I don't want to be part of a "super group." I don't want to be part of an organisation, agency or whatever else you want to call it. I don't want to be acting on anybody's orders. Not by the time I'm shooting for Incarnate powers. Not by the time I'm arm-wrestling giant robots. Not by the time I'm saving "a thousand worlds."
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I don't actually disagree concerning Prometheus. He's a weird fit into the story they're building and he reeks of the old "I'm an important character because I say so" style of writing. But since it's doubtful he'll be leaving any time soon, and since we need some kind of hook for solo Incarnate content, I don't mind the idea as presented in the OP. My characters, living gods or not, certainly aren't familiar enough with Praetoria to know where and what to strike outside of the obvious threats, and since Prometheus is already leading the charge in the trials, it seems a good match.
Would I like separate Incarnate arcs about investigating less Praetoria-focused threats as well? Oh hell yes.
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Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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True, we don't know all THAT much about Praetoria, especially about the lesser targets that don't need three football teams' worth of people to assault, but I'd still prefer for that information to come from a Praetorian informant than from a character who insists he's more awesome than I am.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I don't actually disagree concerning Prometheus. He's a weird fit into the story they're building and he reeks of the old "I'm an important character because I say so" style of writing. But since it's doubtful he'll be leaving any time soon, and since we need some kind of hook for solo Incarnate content, I don't mind the idea as presented in the OP. My characters, living gods or not, certainly aren't familiar enough with Praetoria to know where and what to strike outside of the obvious threats, and since Prometheus is already leading the charge in the trials, it seems a good match.
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I actually think Praetorian Vanessa DeVore may be a good pick, counter-intuitively. Yes, she's a powerful psychic, but she's been defeated before, both on Primal Earth and on Praetorian Earth so her "awesome level" is about mid-range and good for us to compete with. She's also WITH the Resistance, but not coo coo for cocoa puffs level of "with the Resistance" like Hatchet or War Dog or Calvin Scott. Plus she's likely to know a lot of inside information, perhaps even pulled out of the Seers directly, being a psychic and all.
Or how about Penny Yin? She's reputedly the world's most powerful psychic, and her Praetorian version is picking Mother Mayhem's brain. She'd make a pretty good contact for snagging soloable Incarnate missions in Praetoria. Penny would know where to strike and what to take out, and she'd be able to hide the identity of the people doing it from Mother directly.
Basically what I'm saying is I don't want our progression into godlike powers to proceed in the shadow of even greater, more unreachable gods, as if to remind us that NPCs will always be greater than us. I thought the point of giving us Incarnate powers was to remove us from under the shadow of the Statesman and Lord Recluse, but was it worth it if they just invented even more absurd characters to tower over us?
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All of that said, if we DID get solo Incarnate content through Prometheus, I wouldn't really complain about it all THAT much
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Even though I can't say I've read a majority of your post Sam, I have had a tendency to disagree with you. However the same cannot be said for your posts here.
I agree that we should be called upon to do things if we want, not be made to do them because we have to. Statesman's task force clearly uses this at the ending where he says he wishes he could have been there. And obviously, he probably would have beat the living snot out of all the baddies; if he wanted to, but he stepped aside.
I just don't know how it would be added to the the game in an exciting way, other than the newspaper/radio missions. I mean hell, I'll jump around Atlas from time to time and see the random lady getting her purse snatched, sometimes, again for the hell of it, I kick the bad guy across the screen; just because I can. But more often then not, I ignore it. Why?, because it is beneath me. (As egotistical as that sounds)
Going Rogue offers some great zone events that help expand upon this concept, and I would like to see more zone events throughout the world. I would expect them however to challenge me in some way; not just based on a timer, but based on my skills; and others that want to join in.
Such as a bomb as been set to go off in Building X, you have limited time to help the people out of the building or do you go after the mastermind. Once completed, based on your level you should be rewarded with addition missions based on your choices. You could continue to track down the person responsible, or ignore it. These choices could reflect how the world see's you (morality scale).
Sam I understand what you are saying to an extent but I think it depends on how one views the game and the contacts. Sure some contacts make it seem like you are an underling to be bossed around but a lot of them simply give you the details of what is happening and it's your decision to handle it or not... Keeping in mind that now we have so much contact you can literally skip doing anything for a contact if you don't feel like it and still make it to the next tier level of contacts.
Praetoria, to me, was a break from the norm where the contact simply gave me an assignment and said "See you when you get back!" I actually had contacts join me inside missions to help out or in others they were in contact with me but off performing some other portion of the "MASTER PLAN". I found that very refreshing .. even the Task Forces we see hero side have some super hero sending YOU off to battle evil while they stay behind.. "Umm excuse me Posi. I'm just curious if this situation is so bad why aren't you helping us deal with it?" LOL
I think it all boils down to the RPG portion of MMORPG. In my mind my characters are independant agents doing whatever they deem necessary or whatever looks like fun to them. The contacts are just that CONTACTS.. Hey Batman gave Chief Gordon the bat signal because he knew the Police Department had a lot more eyes and ears to detect crime. You can patrol all night and if you don't get lucky you may not spot a single crime but if a silent alarm goes off in a bank being robbed and your Police contact lets you know.. you can stop the robbers!
I actually like the idea of Incarnate contacts that give us missions (that can be teamed [8 man limit] or soloed). Written properly this can be as simple a thing as "We are detecting a situation that may cause serious problems if it is allowed to continue. Perhaps you can look into it if you aren't already busy with other matters?" As Incarnates we are working on being godlike, demi-gods so to speak, but in Mythology even the gods themselves all worked for one BOSS.. (ZEUS as an example). 
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Well, really, it is as I've said before - it's not so much a question of mechanics as a question of narrative approach. What rubs me the wrong way about Prometheus is that he unabashedly threatens my character when I press him for information on the Coming Storm. "You'll have to tell me some day." gets him to respond with "You test my patience!" Yeah, you test MY patience, Papa Smurf, but the writers didn't give me the option to backtalk to you, did they?
This is a recurring problem with some of the game's writing, in that our characters are written as timid, tranquil heroes who will take all abuse thrown at them and still do the right thing. Ignoring that this doesn't work for villains, I'm tired of hearing excuses about why it's justified. Oh, Daos can turn off the reclimators. Oh, Hardcase will sic demons on me. Oh, Marauder will break my cover. Oh, Prometheus will smite me. Stop writing like this!
Do you remember how I put Willy Wheeler in his place? Do you remember what happened to that Dr. guy in Neutropolis who tried to kill me with supermutants? Do you remember what happened to Neuron? Yeah, the NPCs are not untochable unless godmodding writing says they are, and if writing can say they are, then writing can say they ain't. The game TELLS me that Prometheus is awesome and powerful, and I'm supposed to take its word for it, when I'd have vastly preferred it to have told me that I was awesome, instead.
Really, I don't think Prometheus was necessary, at least not as a benefactor. Ramiel was a good source for Incarnate information, as were a few other specific characters. At the very least, if Prometheus HAD to be used, we should have been given the option to browbeat him into submission. I can even come up with plenty of wiseass angles to do this from that wouldn't require direct combat, such as:
-"Go ahead and smite me, then. See how your future turns out. No? Then watch your mouth."
-"You talk a good talk, Prometheus, but I've seen the same future you have. And I know you have reason to be afraid."
-"You wouldn't be here asking for my help if you didn't need me, so why don't you cut the attitude and get to the point?"
-"I'm the god damn Avatar!"
Things of this nature.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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"Wait, agents? You have agents?"
Prometheus replies, "Yes, I do. They are scattered far and wide, across the dimensions, through the universes. They can be found in your world, in Praetoria, and in many other worlds beyond. They are everywhere, and they are nowhere."
With this line, Prometheus has opened the door for the solo Incarnate. Once the Alpha slot is unlocked, Prometheus could give us missions to investigate key areas within Pretoria. These could be scouting missions for the BAF/Lambda trials and beyond. They would of course need to be hard to accomplish, but the individual would earn iXP as well as a random roll reward, threads, Astral and Empyrian Merits. (Empyrian would still need to be set at the same timer and one could not run both a trial and mission, only 1 per Baf/Lambda)
Prometheus could give a mission about investigating finding a weaknesses in his leaders, this would lead you to covertly break into Tyrants fortress.
This would need to be a timed mission set at 15 minutes.
You would have a variety of options to get more time such as disable alarm system and camera systems. Once you have made it to his office, there is of course an Elite Boss of some kind. Once the system is hacked, an internal alarm goes off and you have a limited time to escape. After you escape, you would earn an Astral Merit.
This mission unlocks (at this time) 2 other arcs that center around Lambda and BAF. Also covert mission that are very hard. I'd write more buy my kids are driving me crazy.