Quote:
Not really. I vastly prefer the way Regen plays. I like having how the fight turns out be reliant on how quickly I can react, and having many fights be a serious race to see who falls down first. I certainly enjoy the things a other secondaries can do at their peaks. The way Regen works means it is in more danger doing them, and may not be able to do them, but I still prefer the way it feels, and get more satisfaction from pulling off hard stuff with it. (I have 3 level 50 Regens, and play two of them very actively.)|
Originally Posted by Elegost
apparently I'm the only one still in favor of kat/regen :[
|
If I ever found myself in a parallel universe where I was a MMO designer, I think I would tend towards reactive or short-term proactive mitigation tools (MoG, SoW) rather than the passive ones (most toggles) that are so prevalent in CoH.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That's part of the reason I keep fiddling with Regen. WP's lack of a clickie (outside of the tier 9) can make the set boring. :/
|
Originally Posted by Mach_Four
After reading (and rereading) this thread and giving some thought and input from my experiences thus far with regen, I'm actually considering rerolling into /WP because of all the votes. I do like regen but I have found myself face first more than I like. Regen doesn't react well in a pinch. Plus I've never rolled a /WP toon so there could be potential gains. To formulate a question:
Coming from a lvl 22 Regen, and liking the set, will I be further impressed if I reroll into a /WP? Or does Regen really pick up soon? I was thinking I'd like Regen better because I think all the clicky heals kind of keep you on your toes but then I remembered my Invuln tank and how nice "set it and forget it is" and how much it keeps your head in the fight and off the green bar. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
She's my DB/WP's bane as well. Always so close to dieing (havent yet), but haven't been able to take her down yet! Grrrrr...|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I'm gonna say WP as well. The flexibility in what AVs and large mobs you can handle is fantastic. Regen on top of defense on top of resist(nothing too great here, but still better than nothing) on top of high hit points is stupid survivable. Add in IO sets and there aren't many AVs you couldn't take solo.
Though I don't know if I'll ever be able to beat Silver Mantis. I hate her with a passion. |
Havent even tried yet with Interface though.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Yeah, but I said screw it and rerolled into /WP. After making a build in Mids' and finding comparable regen and recovery rates in /WP, I decided it would be the superior set for my toon. I like going against the tide but if the easier ride is with willpower, I'm going with it. Besides, thanks to Pretoria getting back to 22 will be pretty easy :-D
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Originally Posted by BrandX
That's part of the reason I keep fiddling with Regen. WP's lack of a clickie (outside of the tier 9) can make the set boring. :/
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Both are great sets, WP is a less click happy when it comes to your own defense.
My /regen has MoG, IH, Shadow Meld & Phase Shift. It doesn't die. Ever. Regen also doesn't have any weaknesses to any damage types as +regen has them all covered.
/Wp is great while in a large mob, and has pulled off numerous feats. It lacks a great self heal, but with IO slotting can get enough defense as to where Aid Self can be taken and used effectively.
Both a great sets, and regen is only as weak as you make it.
"PvP Messiah"
Quote:
Indeed. Unfortunately, it's also only as strong as the devs allow it. And what they allow is for it, when played perfectly, to be merely as strong as the other sets. You don't get any special benefit for the difficulty of playing it perfectly.|
Originally Posted by Cold_X
regen is only as weak as you make it.
|
Mind you, I need to think further and poke around at what's possible in I20. All the negativity (including my own) reminds me of how I started posting on the forum. Back then, people thought that the Rikti War Zone challenge would be impossible for a Regen. So I went and beat it with my Katana/Regen on my first try and posted about it, post #1. Prevailing wisdom isn't always right, and I20 could be game-changing in ways we're not thinking of.
OK, I'm off to Mids'.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I guess I like playing things that are some what looked at as under performers.... The top 2 things I currently play... my Fire Armor Brute and my Regen Scrapper 
... Stupid incarnate crap having me pick a few from many
Quote:
I'm not sure I20 is moving Regen much deeper into the constellation of top performers in terms of stunts like soloing AVs, but it's definitely elevating it in the "normal" game, where for me "normal" means soloing on something north of +3 or +4 / x6|
Originally Posted by Werner
Mind you, I need to think further and poke around at what's possible in I20. All the negativity (including my own) reminds me of how I started posting on the forum. Back then, people thought that the Rikti War Zone challenge would be impossible for a Regen. So I went and beat it with my Katana/Regen on my first try and posted about it, post #1. Prevailing wisdom isn't always right, and I20 could be game-changing in ways we're not thinking of.
|
As I mentioned, I have 3 L50 Regens. Two are Scrappers (meaning one is a Stalker), with DM and DB as primaries. The DM is very durable for a Regen, having MoG, Shadow Meld, and now Barrier Destiny. I went for even more mitigation with the debuffing Void Judgment. (I went for the -DR side of Reactive Interface.)
The DB isn't as durable, but defeats large spawns much faster. On the DB, I don't have Shadow Meld, but I do have DB's AoEs. When I play her against large spawns, it's always about using AoEs to whittle the spawn fast enough than its DPS drops to where it can't defeat her. I decided to go all offense with my Incarnate stuff, taking the high-burst damage Pyronic Judgement and the DoT side of Reactive Interface. I figured, hell, just kill faster.
But something completely unexpected happened. The DoT Reactive Interface makes stuff run away. With DB's AoEs, it's almost like spreading caltrops. Foes focus way less fire on her. Now, on the one hand, I think that slightly slows down how fast I defeat stuff with her, if it runs completely out of my AoE range. On the other hand, it tends to drop incoming fire to a degree way below her survival threshold, which is amusing to me, since I was trying for all offensive benefit.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
FA is beastly these days. It's an awful lot of fun to shore it up with IOs and go completely ape with FE.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I guess I like playing things that are some what looked at as under performers.... The top 2 things I currently play... my Fire Armor Brute and my Regen Scrapper
... Stupid incarnate crap having me pick a few from many |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Katten
"in-set Rez? Regen might have the worst rez on any set that has one."
I have regen's fix. It has no debuff protection yet? I suggest DEBT protection, that builds as you level, culminating with the self rez power. Put the Self Rez half the recharge as other self rezzes. Debt already means little, to a regen it should mean practically nothing. You are eternal, death is merely a temporary incapacition. If death meant almost nothing to a regen I'd love playing it, I'd jump in, likely die, buy my teammates some precious time not getting shot, then, knowing my body would heal stand back up and deliver the fight to my newly unsuspecting enemies. This is what regen needs. This would make it unique and remain thematic without being overpowered. Regeneration should be the keystone powerset for embodied immortals, for vampires, for werewolves and the classically supernatural beasties. They seem to die, but they keep coming back for more. It's horror mythology incarnate... +wolverine and Prometheus. |
Regen's REAL fix is to make IH a toggle as it was in the old days. I would stick it's constant healing at about what /WP's is with 5 mobs in Rttc. This will never happen, as I am convinced the devs really do hate regen.
The initial regen "tweaks" are the reason I started posting on the boards. This is also still a topic the Devs are very touchy about. I have friends who have spoken to Posi about it at cons, they say his eye starts to twitch...ok they didn't put it like that. They did say he said it is fine, and Castle said "Regen is still awesome" to me in several beta tests.
Regen is stuck. If it ever changes I will be so happy I may be moved to tears.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
Regen could use resistance to -regen and -end. At least -regen.
Quote:
This I found to be just annoying on my Kat/Reg. Didn't really notice it on my ss/fa due to the taunt
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The DoT Reactive Interface makes stuff run away.
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Possible fix options that I feel would be appropriate, without stepping on anyone else's toes or overpowering the set.
Add regeneration, recovery, and heal debuff resistance. Everyone else has resistance to debuffs in their set. WP even gets it in powers that Regen had first, and Regen still does not have. How/why is this still an issue?
Remove unenhanceable portions of powers. Why not? Also, how much would Regen gain from this. Another one that is strange to me why they have let it stand even after Regen has clearly fallen down.
Return Instant Healing to a toggle. There is no reason why this power should not be able to challenge Rise to the Challenge, which also has a small To-Hit Debuff. A higher endurance cost could offset the fact it runs at max all the time.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
Quote:
Wait...wait...Fire Armor is considered an underperformer now? o.O
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I guess I like playing things that are some what looked at as under performers.... The top 2 things I currently play... my Fire Armor Brute and my Regen Scrapper
... Stupid incarnate crap having me pick a few from many |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I figured that Katana/Regen could be very competitive IF we could hit some goals:|
Originally Posted by Werner
I'm off to Mids'.
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- Normal soft cap with one Divine Avalanche and the 5% tail end of T4 Barrier
- Perma Hasten
- Perma Dull Pain
- Slotted Tough
- Shadow Meld
- Able to run top DPS chain during the rather frequent periods of high defense boost (Golden Dragonfly should recharge in 3.43 seconds or less)
I've failed to achieve all the goals, but it's not too far off, missing the soft cap by 4.2%, 4.8% and 1.7%, and missing perma Hasten by maybe 7 seconds. I threw it together pretty fast, so I'm sure there are still some improvements to be made. If we're going to miss the soft cap, I'd say we don't want to miss it by more than 2.5%, so that at least we're soft capped from Barrier for one minute out of two, and not too far off the rest of the time.
There are some inefficiencies in the build. It has more hit point bonuses than it needs since it has more than perma Dull Pain. It's not that they're bad, but they're fairly wasteful. They just showed up as a side effect of the sets I was slotting for other reasons. Still, maybe they can be traded in some way for things we need more.
Anyway, here it is. Can we fix it?
Code:
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
I'd say the dissappointing part of this, is you seemed forced to go Katana (maybe Broadsword) to say Regen is competitive. :/
|
Originally Posted by Werner
I figured that Katana/Regen could be very competitive IF we could hit some goals:
I've failed to achieve all the goals, but it's not too far off, missing the soft cap by 4.2%, 4.8% and 1.7%, and missing perma Hasten by maybe 7 seconds. I threw it together pretty fast, so I'm sure there are still some improvements to be made. If we're going to miss the soft cap, I'd say we don't want to miss it by more than 2.5%, so that at least we're soft capped from Barrier for one minute out of two, and not too far off the rest of the time. There are some inefficiencies in the build. It has more hit point bonuses than it needs since it has more than perma Dull Pain. It's not that they're bad, but they're fairly wasteful. They just showed up as a side effect of the sets I was slotting for other reasons. Still, maybe they can be traded in some way for things we need more. Anyway, here it is. Can we fix it? |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I don't think that's specific to Regeneration. If you want top end survivability in a secondary that doesn't include defense, then you need to add a whole lot of defense. For quite a few secondaries, that means you need Katana or Broad Sword for top end survivability.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'd say the dissappointing part of this, is you seemed forced to go Katana (maybe Broadsword) to say Regen is competitive. :/
|
Similarly, Super Reflexes, Shield Defense and Invulnerability want healing, and that's what Dark Melee offers, so I think Dark Melee tends to be the best choice to combine with those. Still, at least with the defensive secondaries can pick up Aid Self instead, giving you more flexibility when building your top end survivability Scrapper.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Well, I'm just thinking...with WP, I can go with any Primary, same with INV. Yeah, Dark Melee offers even more, but one doesn't feel limited to those.
|
Originally Posted by Werner
I don't think that's specific to Regeneration. If you want top end survivability in a secondary that doesn't include defense, then you need to add a whole lot of defense. For quite a few secondaries, that means you need Katana or Broad Sword for top end survivability.
Similarly, Super Reflexes, Shield Defense and Invulnerability want healing, and that's what Dark Melee offers, so I think Dark Melee tends to be the best choice to combine with those. Still, at least with the defensive secondaries can pick up Aid Self instead, giving you more flexibility when building your top end survivability Scrapper. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
True.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, I'm just thinking...with WP, I can go with any Primary, same with INV. Yeah, Dark Melee offers even more, but one doesn't feel limited to those.
|
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
We don't have and probably won't get the recharge to pull this off exactly due to the cast time of Shadow Meld. Also, in practice you'd be using powers as needed, not just cycling them in a specific pattern endlessly. One of the benefits of Regeneration is your ability to shift survivability around in time, banking it when you're getting lucky, withdrawing when your luck turns. Still, I think this gives us a reasonable picture of how much time we can spend over the new soft cap when solo if we really, really need to:
1-15 Shadow MeldSo figure we can stay at the new soft cap for about two minutes before having a couple little over ten second breaks in the about two and a half minutes of the total cycle. Even during those breaks, melee will still be at the new soft cap due to stacking Divine Avalanche for those periods. One of those breaks is probably where you'd be refreshing Dull Pain due to increased incoming damage. Hopefully that and Reconstruction (and Instant Healing when it's up, about every other cycle) would pull you through the rough patches.
16-30 Moment of Glory
31-45 Shadow Meld
46-75 Barrier
76-90 Shadow Meld
91-105 Moment of Glory
106-120 Shadow Meld
121-130 -
131-145 Shadow Meld
146-155 -
I'm sure there are some Regens out there already cycling these three defensive powers. How's it working for you? Other than the obvious problems of long cast times and times when nothing is up, what problems are you having with it?
Edit: Fixed a 5 second error, moved the breaks to the end.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
A little more global recharge, melee defense covered, ranged and AoE slightly worse.
Code:
Edit: Oops, too many Luck of the Gamblers. Now a free slot to play with.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I am still not convinced you need that magic number 45 on a Regen. 35+, get IH to 50% up-time and it should be good. A lot easier to get there with Katana or BS but should be attainable on others I think. Assuming of course that you did not gimp on other powers (Recon, DP, MoG, SM and your attacks).
Quote:
Still trying to get that 35% across the boards on a regen while maintaining a awesome DPS. So far no luck, but I'm trying! |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I am still not convinced you need that magic number 45 on a Regen. 35+, get IH to 50% up-time and it should be good. A lot easier to get there with Katana or BS but should be attainable on others I think. Assuming of course that you did not gimp on other powers (Recon, DP, MoG, SM and your attacks).
|
I'm probably just not seeing it yet. I'm sure (ie Hoping) it's possible.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I'm guessing tough and expensive, but doable with Barrier. With Barrier and without Divine Avalanche, my latest edit is approximately 25%/40%/40%. Assuming you can trade ranged and AoE bonuses for melee bonuses, that's basically equivalent to 35% across the board. Then you can still spend the majority of your time at the new soft cap by juggling Barrier, Moment of Glory and Shadow Meld as required. Really, it would probably be almost as good. With all the defensive tools available now, Divine Avalanche, while still useful, gets a little lost in the crowd.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Still trying to get that 35% across the boards on a regen while maintaining a awesome DPS. So far no luck, but I'm trying!
I'm probably just not seeing it yet. I'm sure (ie Hoping) it's possible. |
As far as maintaining DPS, again it won't translate directly, but the build I posted can run the top attack chain and has purples and Achilles' Heel in the main attack. It's not a top DPS build, but it's really quite good (when it can avoid Divine Avalanche anyway, which non-sword primaries don't need to worry about).
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Debt protection? I spend most of my time playing my 50s, so I'm already protected, and frankly, I think leveling already goes too fast. A faster recharge rez? I don't plan on dying that much. Not even slightly tempting.
But that's just me. I actually LIKE your idea and would like to see it implemented. It just won't tempt ME back into the fold, and I think Regen is going to need more than that to make it more competitive.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks