How High is Up? an Experiment in Defense


Dissolution

 

Posted

Thanks muchly to all who responded to the recent thread I started re: 'new Soft Cap'.

I was working on the series of builds presented here before I got the answers in that thread, and now feel that these builds are not quite as bizarre as I feared. Basically all three are experiments in seeing just how much defense I could possibly cram on to a tank. Since the only archetype I am really up on is Granite, my only tank, that is what I used. I tried to include every trick for boosting defense and survivability I have ever seen on this forum and the Scrapper forum. Working on these builds has been a lot of fun and, I believe, a useful learning exercise. I think they offer some real utility in sparking slotting ideas for more reasonable builds.

All three builds share these characteristics:
1) Paragon Nerve Radial for 20% def boost with 2/3 ignoring ED and 33% 2/3 ignore bonus to all Taunt abilities.
2) The 4 major Accolades giving +HP and +Endurance.

*** Note the new MIDS may not have these defaulted on. Be sure to turn them on if you care to verify the numbers I cite. ***

3) The normal things addressed on a Granite tank were ruthlessly ignored. Damage boosts, global recharge, and movement boosts like GotA were removed or replaced as needed for the goal of MORE Defense. Some recharge boosts remain as LotG is such a good set. Shield Walls replace LotG in some powers for the extra Hit Points it provides because ---
4) All builds seek to maximize regeneration with capped or almost capped Hit Points at peak (ie: with Earth's Embrace active.) the target turned out to be 80 HP per second.
5) Obviously to get regeneration like that Rooted is assumed to be on all the time and any build like these would require an expert use of teleport.
6) Since I do not have the veteran ability to take teleport without the prerequisite power, all builds use Recall Friend to mule the 20% Winters Gift unique.

The first build is the last build created. It acceptes the Psionic hole and has the other 6 Typed defenses at 72.5% (72.47.) Psionic is at 22.3% representing 16.334% from Weave, Maneuvers, and Stealth and the two 3% uniques. Melee, Ranged and AoE are at 30.1%.
Resists: S/L resistance is capped without tough (Stoneskin), and F-C-E-N are all at 80.1 %. Toxic is also 80.1 but capped when Earth's embrace is active.
Regeneration is 550% for 80.88 HP per second at 3523.7 Hit Points, and 57.74 HP per second with 2515.9 Hit Points when Earth's Embrace is not active.
Recovery is 3.66/s for a net of 2/s before taking into account the 2 Performance Shifter procs. With 117.25 Max End they should each be worth about .234/s for a total of .468/s . I find two Procs much more reliable and smoother than one. I have 2 on my scrapper.
I think, if built (LOL), this build would be the most survivable. The AoE effects retain reasonable slotting and the Nerve radial would at least insure the gimped ST attacks would land. You could even turn on Focused Accuracy . It does provide To-Hit debuff resistance.
so: Rock V5XPPD70
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Rock 5XPPD70 (Stealth) Max D Psionic partly patched experiment: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(7)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(5), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg:50(5), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Numna-Heal:50(25), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 4: Combustion -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(9), Erad-%Dam:10(11), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(11), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(40)
Level 6: Recall Friend -- Winter-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 8: Rooted -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(9), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15), HO:Golgi(17)
Level 10: Mud Pots -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(13), Erad-%Dam:10(15), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(19), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(21), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(21)
Level 12: Kick -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), GA-3defTpProc:10(25), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(40), Aegis-ResDam:50(42)
Level 16: Teleport -- Jnt-EndRdx/Rng:50(A)
Level 18: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt:50(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg:50(19), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(31), Mocking-Acc/Rchg:50(40), Mocking-Taunt/Rng:50(48), Mocking-Rchg:50(50)
Level 20: Stone Skin -- Aegis-ResDam:40(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(23), Aegis-Psi/Status:25(37)
Level 22: Weave -- SW-Def/EndRdx:50(A), SW-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(34), HO:Enzym(43)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), HO:Enzym(43)
Level 26: Minerals -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(29), Erad-%Dam:10(29), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(46)
Level 30: Crystal Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- SW-Def:50(A), SW-Def/EndRdx:50(33), HO:Enzym(33), Aegis-ResDam:50(33), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(34), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(34)
Level 35: Incinerate -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(39)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn:10(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit:20(46)
Level 44: Laser Beam Eyes -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(46)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(48), P'Shift-End%:21(50)
Level 49: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(50)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Raptor Pack
Level 50: Nerve Radial Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:20(A), Mrcl-Heal:40(17), Numna-Heal:50(37), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(42), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:30(42), RgnTis-Regen+:10(48)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:21(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(27)

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The other two builds both give 45%+ soft cap Psionic using various optimal sets (primarily Impervium Armor and Scirocco's Dervish) and the Weave, Maneuvers, and Stealth base of defense all. The Mace Mastery Patron Pool build even soft caps Psionic without Stealth. Other Defenses approach or exceed the 60% 'new Soft Cap'.
So: Rock 5XV3 Patron Pool build
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Rock 5XV3 Max D Psionic Hole patched experimental : Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(7)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(5), ImpArm-EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(7), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25)
Level 4: Combustion -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(9), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(11), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(11), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), Sciroc-Dam%:20(40)
Level 6: Recall Friend -- Winter-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 8: Rooted -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(9), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(15), HO:Golgi(17)
Level 10: Mud Pots -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(15), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(21), Sciroc-Dam%:20(21)
Level 12: Boxing -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), GA-3defTpProc:10(25), ImpArm-ResPsi:15(37), ImpArm-ResDam:40(40), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(42)
Level 16: Teleport -- Jnt-EndRdx/Rng:50(A)
Level 18: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt/Rng:50(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg:50(19), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(31), Zinger-Acc/Rchg:50(40)
Level 20: Stone Skin -- ImpArm-ResDam:40(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(23), ImpArm-ResPsi:15(37)
Level 22: Weave -- SW-Def/EndRdx:50(A), SW-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(34), HO:Enzym(43)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), HO:Enzym(46)
Level 26: Minerals -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(29), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(31), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Sciroc-Dam%:20(43)
Level 30: Crystal Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- SW-Def:50(A), SW-Def/EndRdx:50(33), SW-Def/Rchg:50(33), ImpArm-ResDam:40(33), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(34), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(34)
Level 35: Incinerate -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(39)
Level 41: Mace Blast -- Apoc-Dmg:50(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Apoc-Dam%:50(45)
Level 44: Focused Accuracy -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn:10(A)
Level 47: Summon Blaster -- S'bndAl-Dmg:50(A), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg:50(48), S'bndAl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), S'bndAl-Build%:50(50)
Level 49: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), HO:Enzym(50)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Raptor Pack
Level 50: Nerve Radial Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:20(A), Mrcl-Heal:40(17), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:30(37), Numna-Heal:50(43), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(46), RgnTis-Regen+:10(46)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:21(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(27)

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and: Rock 5X2 Which is very close to the build I actually play in that it retains Stone Fire Pyre. Droppping Fireball to 6 slot a Deveastation set in Ring of Fire (ouch.) This build was worked on the least as I saw more potential in the Patron Pool and Energy Mastery builds.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Rock 5X2 Max D Psionic Hole patched experimental : Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(7)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(5), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), ImpArm-EndRdx/Rchg:40(7), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50)
Level 4: Combustion -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(9), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(11), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(11), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), Sciroc-Dam%:20(40)
Level 6: Recall Friend -- Winter-ResSlow:10(A)
Level 8: Rooted -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(9), HO:Golgi(15), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(17)
Level 10: Mud Pots -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(15), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(21), Sciroc-Dam%:20(21)
Level 12: Kick -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), GA-3defTpProc:10(25), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(25), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(37), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(40)
Level 16: Teleport -- Jnt-EndRdx/Rng:50(A)
Level 18: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt/Rchg:50(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(19), Zinger-Acc/Rchg:50(31), Zinger-Taunt/Rng:50(40)
Level 20: Stone Skin -- ImpArm-ResDam:40(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(23), ImpArm-ResPsi:15(37)
Level 22: Weave -- SW-Def/EndRdx:50(A), SW-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(34), HO:Enzym(43)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 26: Minerals -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(29), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(31), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Sciroc-Dam%:20(46)
Level 30: Crystal Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- DefBuff-I:50(A), HO:Enzym(33), HO:Enzym(33), ImpArm-ResDam:40(33), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(34), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(34)
Level 35: Incinerate -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(39)
Level 41: Char -- BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(A), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(43)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Apoc-Dmg:50(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Dam%:50(46), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(46)
Level 47: Ring of Fire -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50), Dev'n-Hold%:50(50)
Level 49: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Raptor Pack
Level 50: Nerve Total Radial Revamp
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:20(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:30(17), Numna-Heal:50(37), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(43)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:21(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(27)

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Well hope this provides some food for thought and a bit of fun,
Jak


 

Posted

I think most people would agree that it is a waste of slots and power selections to aim for that much defense. The majority of the game only requires 45% defense to give your enemies the lowest chance to hit possible. Other than DE tip missions, content with higher base to-hit is designed for team-play only. In a team, you will most likely have someone to cover the gap in defense from 45% to 59%. A good team leader would likely build their team in a way that ensures everyone has the best chance to survive by including the right defense buffs.

Your builds lack movement speed for repositioning yourself in combat. I have to turn off Rooted to move fast, but the movement speed is close to base movement speed when I need to move around.

I came to the conclusion that it would be most effective to cap resistances while in Granite form. Here is my build:

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax42 View Post
I think most people would agree that it is a waste of slots and power selections to aim for that much defense. The majority of the game only requires 45% defense to give your enemies the lowest chance to hit possible. Other than DE tip missions, content with higher base to-hit is designed for team-play only. In a team, you will most likely have someone to cover the gap in defense from 45% to 59%. A good team leader would likely build their team in a way that ensures everyone has the best chance to survive by including the right defense buffs.
We have three builds at our disposal... there is no reason not to consider building for the Praetorian content. I'm not investing in that until I see how often I'll be running the content, but the way the league system works, there's a good chance that a pick-up trial *won't* have the defense buffs you consider necessary. There's also something to be said for being a self-sufficient tanker running those trials.

Those levels of defense are not limited to stone tanks. I've made some Mids builds that I'm still experimenting with, but I've got a Shields/SS build that's got 59% defense to all positions, and an Inv/Fire and Ice/KM that hit 59% to S/L/E/N. I'm not going to post them here yet, because they're still in progress and a bit ugly at the moment - build skeletons as opposed to builds.

Those builds make sacrifices - pushing defenses that high does have significant opportunity costs that I'm generally unwilling to pay.

But, I don't think that a build that softcaps for the new content is uncalled for if you have intentions of running the new content regularly.

As to your contention that JakHammer's stone tank can't move in combat - if you don't see the big glaring power called Teleport that serves just fine for stone tank mobility, that's an oversight on your part, not JakHammer's.


Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.

-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!

 

Posted

I actually ran max defense on my ice/, I was over 60% s/l/e/n and had the toggle from red side soul... although watching it work with chilling 'e was neat because of the -dam but the additional -acc was not noticeable, it was seriously disappointing. I run about every possible combination for tanking on my ice/ just because I like in game testing vs. computer spreads etc. Max defense had to be the biggest let down of all builds for me. Clicking EA added even more defence but again I noticed no real benefit over 45% no matter the content.

For me this was a much better mids experiment than was in game.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
I actually ran max defense on my ice/, I was over 60% s/l/e/n and had the toggle from red side soul... although watching it work with chilling 'e was neat because of the -dam but the additional -acc was not noticeable, it was seriously disappointing. I run about every possible combination for tanking on my ice/ just because I like in game testing vs. computer spreads etc. Max defense had to be the biggest let down of all builds for me. Clicking EA added even more defence but again I noticed no real benefit over 45% no matter the content.

For me this was a much better mids experiment than was in game.
But were you running against Praetorian Clockwork/DE?


Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.

-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!

 

Posted

I ran vs. the greatest spread of baddies that I could across all difficulty settings. So yes I also faced them. When I play with my little experiments I try and get the best cross section as possible.


 

Posted

Not even mentioning team buff that will probably be present in the teams for new content that makes the softcap 59%, resistance sets with layered defense aren't going to feel the sting as much as sets that rely mainly on defense to begin with. If you build your granite with 45% def, 90% resistance, and as much regen as you can you shouldn't have any problems. My Icer, however, will probably feel the sting in the new trials, as well as my dm/sr scrapper. My Icer with the nerve alpha sits at 52% without EA, then hits 61% with it fully saturated, but again, with team buffs I probably won't need EA except to refill the blue bar.

The point is I think you're worrying about something that will most likely be a non issue for you and your granite tank.


SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
I ran vs. the greatest spread of baddies that I could across all difficulty settings. So yes I also faced them. When I play with my little experiments I try and get the best cross section as possible.
That's rather missing the point, in my opinion.

Of course having 60% defense won't help you against 95% of the game. Things still have only a 5% base to-hit chance against you.

The idea would not be to compare against the entire game - it would be an apples to apples comparison against enemies that have a 64% to-hit chance.

Your icer would have roughly quadruple the survivability against enemies with a base 64% to hit if you built to 59% defense vs. the usual 45%. That should be a noticeable difference.

I don't think that using a new soft cap tank on most content is a worthwhile endeavor - it's a precision tool that's highly over-engineered for the task. It's like using a laser-guided computer-driven industrial drill press when all you need to do is drill a pilot hole for a screw. Yes, it will work, but it'll take three times as long to do as using a regular power drill, and you won't have noticeably better results.

It's about using the right tool for the job - which is why I'm considering using one of my three builds as an 'Incarnate Tank' build. You don't use it across a wide variety of content, you use it for Incarnate content.


Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.

-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!

 

Posted

A true incarnate tanker should actually have less defense than for normal content IMHO, and more emphasis on aggro control, damage, mobility and max HP. Incarnate content is so far about teaming, and even if you assume you're not going to get enough buffs to get to whatever defense value you consider adequate, there's still inspirations.

On the other hand, it is much harder to get damage from insps, and impossible to get more aggro, maxHP or mobility that way. iTrials are time based, so being able to pack a punch is important.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smersh View Post

Your icer would have roughly quadruple the survivability against enemies with a base 64% to hit if you built to 59% defense vs. the usual 45%. That should be a noticeable difference.


It's about using the right tool for the job - which is why I'm considering using one of my three builds as an 'Incarnate Tank' build. You don't use it across a wide variety of content, you use it for Incarnate content.
Should be... could be, but in my game play I noticed no real difference even through incarnate content. I think my current build is a much better tool. Ofcourse your experience may vary. Once you do it let me know how it went.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smersh View Post
As to your contention that JakHammer's stone tank can't move in combat - if you don't see the big glaring power called Teleport that serves just fine for stone tank mobility, that's an oversight on your part, not JakHammer's.
Teleport is great for moving large distances, but precise positioning in a pack of mobs takes much more time and effort with teleport than it should. I turn off Rooted to move a few feet instead of leaving it on and teleporting to get to a critter a few feet away. Maybe the OP can tolerate being forced to teleport to move a few feet, but many other Stone Tankers add run speed just to avoid using Teleport.


 

Posted

Thank you to all who have replied so far.

Let me try to clarify what the original post was intended to be about, while in no way attempting to dictate what those responding wish to discuss. I apologise to you all for failing to effectivly state my intent.

Reading the original post should have communicated the fact that the builds I put up were TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATIONS only, and in NO WAY intended as suggested builds for ACTUAL PLAY. However, I would also observe that supposedly we are going to be getting at least some solo Incarnate content and Defense Debuff is always with us, and sometimes your inspiration tray just runs dry, etc.

I tried to build the three builds so they could be played, but the builds are no more practical for general use than trying to put a top fuel dragster on an Interstate Hwy. I did intend that the defenses produced exceed the 'new Soft Cap', that is why I asked about it in a prior post, but only as a spark for thought. I did include Manuevers and Stealth on the builds as possible back-up powers to deal with Defense DeBuff and Incarnate content. Not as recommendations, but mearly as possible tools for your tanker build tool kit. The fact that one build can almost tank tower buffed Lord Recluse with no inspirations or outside buffs (he requires 75% def I seem to recall) is just a big grin.

On a personal note.
My current build on Rock runs in the 20+ mph range with rooted off, and I personally loathe teleport and use it only when I have to, but I am getting better at it. The idea of having to use it all the time is revolting but face planting and causing a team wipe is INFINTELY more repugnant.

Thanks, Jak

PS: Here is a demonstration of recharge techniques, producing perma Earth's Embrace in Granite without Hasten. Why? Because the mountain is there! Trying to climb it is in our genes. But as C. J. Cherryh said via Pyanfar Chanur "It is one thing to climb a mountain. It is quite another thing to build a house there." (hope I got that right, the memory is going.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax42 View Post
Other than DE tip missions, content with higher base to-hit is designed for team-play only. In a team, you will most likely have someone to cover the gap in defense from 45% to 59%. A good team leader would likely build their team in a way that ensures everyone has the best chance to survive by including the right defense buffs.
Everytime I see this sort of idea posted on the forums I get a bit squeamish. A good team leader would always love to build the best and most survivable team, but that will not always happen. You will have to play with what is available unless you want to sit around and wait for the best available. I know that since inherent fitness hit the live servers people have been picking up Leadership, but I don't see the vast defense buffs while playing normal content that people keep talking about. Being survivable while solo should still be an idea to pack into a build as you can't always rely on your teammates, especially in pickup groups.


 

Posted

I always build with intent to be able to cause any team to win. Back in the days when you'd form an STF and have 1 mediocre build (with some set bonuses) on the team, maybe 2 50s with no set bonuses, and a bunch of sidekicks, a couple of whom probably had expired enhancers, and likely a critical lack of support classes, it was cool to be able to tow the team to victory using only a couple inspirations on recluse and breakfrees against GW. I once did a master STF with 7 blasters and my tank, which I believe at the time was stone/fire; I did take the time to find all level 50s, but they weren't all global channel people; I got many from the search window.

These days, with everybody and their brother being an io'd 51, and huge demand for support classes, quite often a blaster with no innate defenses will find himself pretty much invincible if he just stays with the team, but I still build as if there's a chance that I'll be needed anyway.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
A true incarnate tanker should actually have less defense than for normal content IMHO, and more emphasis on aggro control
Never mind that some of the incarnate content (the BAF) has enemies that simply ignore aggro controllers.

Quote:
damage
Honestly there's only so much you can do with a tank in this area.

Quote:
mobility and max HP.
Max HP doesn't really help if whatever's hitting you is able to kill you in 2-3 consecutive shots even with massive heals going off left and right.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

You're saying some of the content ignores aggro control, so aggro control shouldn't be looked at. Fair enough, let's use that logic. Some of the incarnate content ignores defense and resistance, so both shouldn't also be looked at.

That leaves us with... MaxHP, mobility, damage. Huh.

Quote:
Honestly there's only so much you can do with a tank in this area.
Right, it's not like tankers can be built to solo AVs without insps/temps in a few (less than 5) minutes ; nor can they offer significant AOE power, a tanker taking on x8 missions in any reasonable amount of time is unheard of.

Quote:
Max HP doesn't really help if whatever's hitting you is able to kill you in 2-3 consecutive shots even with massive heals going off left and right.
This one is so silly I can't even be sarcastic about it. More HP lets you see what's coming, more HP lets you react, more HP lets you live. Getting killed in 2 shots is very different than getting killed in 3 shots, and that's what maxHP can help with.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubby View Post
...I don't see the vast defense buffs while playing normal content...
This topic isn't about "normal" content where 45% defense is the standard. This topic is about incarnate content, where you have the opportunity to build your team around what is needed, so far. I have no idea what issue 20 will be like because I have not had time to get on the test server. I thought we would be able to form well-balanced teams for the trials, then queue as a team for the league-based content.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
Right, it's not like tankers can be built to solo AVs without insps/temps in a few (less than 5) minutes ; nor can they offer significant AOE power, a tanker taking on x8 missions in any reasonable amount of time is unheard of.
Not what I said. Merely that pushing damage fractional percents higher only yields so much over time.



Quote:
This one is so silly I can't even be sarcastic about it. More HP lets you see what's coming, more HP lets you react, more HP lets you live. Getting killed in 2 shots is very different than getting killed in 3 shots, and that's what maxHP can help with.
No, what I'm saying is that, against greater accuracy, greater defense is still preferable to +HP as extra HP means very little if you're being hit consistently.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.