Do any Grav/ builds so decent damage?

Ooops my bad, both powers are available at 2 but obviously it's not possible to have that many powers at L2.
Agreed on Decieve, it should be taken early.

Lift reduces the amount of incoming damage in the same way as any KD power does, also it does decent damage.
Crush reduces the foe to ranged attacks which are often weaker and map dependant - walls etc can be used to eliminate incoming damage.


Both Mind and Grav have two powers that setup containment allowing double damage on multiple mobs - Illusion can't do this.
Grav also has Crush (Mag4 immob) which sets up containment on Bosses with one application - Illusion needs two applications of Blind before double damage begins.

Decieve is indeed a great power providing mitigation and supplemental damage. Not that relevant to a discussion on ST attack chains though.

This has been the point of my argument all along:
Illusion is great provided the foe is taken down by Blind - SW.
If it doesn't then Mind and Grav will pull ahead in taking down the same foe because it has an extra attack to complete it's ST chain.

Agreed and depending on the group might be required - however not really relevant to a discussion on ST attack chains.

Having played with and without AS experience tells me that AS makes a massive difference to both damage and mitigation.

This brings us back to "can Illusion take the foe down with a single application of Blind and SW?". Any foe that can't will be taken down quicker by Grav or Mind because it has a complete attack chain,

No argument from me.
As I said "Illusion does NOT have a great attack chain without the APP blast, even with a ton of global Recharge. To get that chain, you need Blind-SW-APP Blast-SW".

No, wait!

Hold on, what I said was - "Illusion only has a decent ST attack if you insert Air Superiority into it; Blind and Spectral Wounds aren't too good on their own."

This was actually said by you in this thead:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=254737

Maybe you should take up the issue with yourself.

Sure, a knockup power has some control benefit, but "decent damage?" It does less damage than Crush, less damage than GD, or Blind or even Spectral Wounds AFTER the healback. I still think it's damage should be the same as Mind's Levitate.

I agree that there are some good strategic uses for Immob powers. And they can reduce the damage you take vs. Melee . . . but it also draws aggro and they can shoot at you. If you are hiding around a corner, then you aren't using your attack chain.

Admittedly, Crush (and Mez) lets you set up Containment on a boss. But I've been talking about taking down Minions and Lieutenants. If you are discussing bosses, then Illusion loses some of its burst damage to the heal-back.

Illusion doesn't really need to set up Containment on multiple foes since it doesn't really have AoE damage that can take advantage of multiple Containment (until the APP AoE attacks) . . . you use Blind-SW on one foe. If the foe is defeated, then you go with Blind-SW on the next. If the foe is not defeated, SW's quick recharge and burst damage will let you hit SW again to finish off the foe, saving Blind for the next guy. As I said before, when you are talking about an attack chain, then the only time that extra Containment attack is valuable for setting up Containment is when the Hold misses.

My comments on Deceive were in response to your statements about how Grav and Mind can spread around control powers and handle small groups more easily than Illusion. I disagree because Deceive makes it easy to remove all aggro from foes that you are not attacking. Even with the attack chain for Grav, as soon as you attack one in a group of 3, the other two will attack you. Yes, you can then hit #2 with Crush and #3 with Lift, but those guys still get shots at you.

And my point all along has been that (a) Illusion's burst damage from the Illusory damage makes it more likely to take out a minion in one application of Blind-SW, and (b) even if the foe still has a little bit of green left, the fast animation and recharge of SW lets you fire off SW a second time before you finish with your attack chain of GD-Crush-Lift/Propel or Dom-Mez-Lev. As a result, Illusion will defeat that minion faster even without a complete "attack chain." Thus, Air Sup is nice but not needed. Air Sup is a nice addition, but does not make a "massive" difference.

It is not an attack chain that matters . . . it is amount of damage over time. With Blind and two shots of SW in less time than others can complete a three-attack chain, Illusion doesn't need that attack chain for low level foes.

Yep, I said that and still stand by it. There is a difference between "attack chain" and "defeating a foe in a certain amount of time." I have said all along that there is a gap in Illusion's attack chain that can be filled with Air Sup or an APP blast. However, my point all along is that a minion can be taken down by Blind-SW-<short gap>-SW faster than GD-Crush-Propel/Lift or Dom-Mez-Lev.

The Attack Chain matters when battling a tougher opponent. It really doesn't matter against low level foes since they are defeated more quickly. Illusion's burst damage, fast animation and fast recharge matters more than an attack chain against low level foes because defeating them quickly lets you keep that extra damage.

The damage from Blind = Damage from GD or Dom, but Blind animates a bit faster. The base damage, not including Illusory damage, from Spectral Wounds = Base damage from Crush (over 5 ticks) or Mez -- but then SW has the extra Illusory damage and animates a faster. So by the time the third attack is completed, Illusion can get in another Spectral Wounds with another hit of Illusory damage . . . without another attack like Air Sup. And two applications of SW's Illusory Damage is more than the additional damage from one (very slow) application of Propel.

By the way, I appreciate the fact that we have had a good back-n-forth discussion and still kept civil and respectful!

This exchange is almost sig worthy! Need the laugh. Nice retort!

*yanks sheets up over himself*

DUDE, DON'T YOU KNOCK?!

... oh wait, I'm in your room. Sorry.

Here, this is one I based loosely on a hybrid of my Grav/Energy Dom and my DP/Rad corrupter, with some evil tricks I learned from @Battlewagon:

This is a very expensive build, make no mistake, but it brings home the bacon. 15.5% global damage, perma hasten, perma am, and damage procs in Radiation Infection and Choking Cloud and Crushing Field spread around the AOE hate. With assault, AM, Musculature Radial Paragon and your global damage, you're floating at a +72.5 global damage boost, and about half that gets shared with your team (and Singy). Oh, and don't worry about being able to run Choking Cloud, Enervating Field and Radiation infection, your recovery is an insane 4.56 end/second.

Damn. Now I want to build one.

Even more expensive, of course, but better single target punishment for those times when you're done finishing off the minions.

Dude, I fu**ing love you.