Just what you needed, another Radiation Melee set idea....
By
AlienMafia,
Posted on: 2011-03-13 24:36 in Suggestions and Ideas
Several points:
-Personally, I don't like that the set has pieces of the blast set. No current melee set does this so why do this with Radiation melee?
-It has Build Up. Meh. What was the last set we got that had Build up? Why not something unique and thematic? What does radiation do that could be more thematic than just 'powering up'?
-The set has nothing unique about it. It's copying the formula of other sets (not a bad thing) but has nothing that sets it apart. No new-ish mechanic, no recycling of a rarely used mechanic to a different effect, no secondary effect that truly gives the set direction.
That's just my opinion though. When I read ideas, I tend to say in my head 'can this be done with what we have'? AFAIC, if you want a 'radiation melee' set, you can always take Energy Melee, use the dark version, color it the way you want and use the atomic aura. It even has a thematic secondary effect of stun (way more thematic than energy, since energy is about knockback not stun).
You could have unique ideas thrown into the set to spice it up and entice people to pick it up, either with a special kind of 'Build up' type power or with a cool/thematic/new secondary effect. I could totally see a new type of effect like 'contamination' that basically 'spreads' its secondary effects to foes you didn't hit. You can even make the set single target focused with strong debuffing capabilities that way. Strongly debuff 1 guy and all his buddies are suddenly feeling the sickness of the 'contamination' effect.
Just my thought though. YMMV 
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To be honest, I'm personally growing a little weary of how awkward some of the newer sets are, all in the name of being different, to the point of resorting to out-and-out BAD ideas just for the sake of being different. I'd love to see a simple, classic melee set that doesn't have any cumbersome mechanics or square-peg-in-a-round-hole powers just for the sake of being different, and as a result inferior.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
-It has Build Up. Meh. What was the last set we got that had Build up? Why not something unique and thematic? What does radiation do that could be more thematic than just 'powering up'?
-The set has nothing unique about it. It's copying the formula of other sets (not a bad thing) but has nothing that sets it apart. No new-ish mechanic, no recycling of a rarely used mechanic to a different effect, no secondary effect that truly gives the set direction. |
For that matter, I'd like to see newer sets with Build Up. I love the power, and its suspicious absence in melee sets from Dual Blades onwards is a concern for me, and a big one, too. It's gotten to the point where all our new stuff is so "different" that creating something conventional would be different by exclusion.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As I mentioned above, I'm just using the inserted "Blast Powers" as examples, not as direct ports. There would certainly need to be melee versions created.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Several points:
-Personally, I don't like that the set has pieces of the blast set. No current melee set does this so why do this with Radiation melee? |
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
-It has Build Up. Meh. What was the last set we got that had Build up? Why not something unique and thematic? What does radiation do that could be more thematic than just 'powering up'?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
-The set has nothing unique about it. It's copying the formula of other sets (not a bad thing) but has nothing that sets it apart. No new-ish mechanic, no recycling of a rarely used mechanic to a different effect, no secondary effect that truly gives the set direction.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
That's just my opinion though. When I read ideas, I tend to say in my head 'can this be done with what we have'? AFAIC, if you want a 'radiation melee' set, you can always take Energy Melee, use the dark version, color it the way you want and use the atomic aura. It even has a thematic secondary effect of stun (way more thematic than energy, since energy is about knockback not stun).
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
You could have unique ideas thrown into the set to spice it up and entice people to pick it up, either with a special kind of 'Build up' type power or with a cool/thematic/new secondary effect. I could totally see a new type of effect like 'contamination' that basically 'spreads' its secondary effects to foes you didn't hit. You can even make the set single target focused with strong debuffing capabilities that way. Strongly debuff 1 guy and all his buddies are suddenly feeling the sickness of the 'contamination' effect.
Just my thought though. YMMV |
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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But Power Siphon isn't 'square-peg-in-round-hole'. It's thematic. And it works out well in many cases: you get a bigger damage buff but for a short time, and a moderate damage buff for a long time. The only thing bad about that is you have to hit the foes to get any buff and it's not an up-front effect. That's not bad or awkward, just trade-offs from traditional BU types. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
To be honest, I'm personally growing a little weary of how awkward some of the newer sets are, all in the name of being different, to the point of resorting to out-and-out BAD ideas just for the sake of being different. I'd love to see a simple, classic melee set that doesn't have any cumbersome mechanics or square-peg-in-a-round-hole powers just for the sake of being different, and as a result inferior.
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You'd have to list specific examples to make your opinion clear. As I see it, unless you have something in the set that makes it feel/play uniquely, designing a set around a different type of self-buff is another alternative.
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| For that matter, I'd like to see newer sets with Build Up. I love the power, and its suspicious absence in melee sets from Dual Blades onwards is a concern for me, and a big one, too. It's gotten to the point where all our new stuff is so "different" that creating something conventional would be different by exclusion. |
That's the idea, though. Different powers let sets do different things. You'll still get your Build up though if it is proliferated to Stalkers, so that's another reason I advocate 'new and different', because not only will it be new and different from existing sets, but it will be new and different by comparison of the other melees vs stalkers.
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I'd rather not derail the thread with my ideas (for whatever reason, when I do, the thread usually tapers off). Just imagine what radiation, as a whole in this game, does. Use that. Heck, it might not even be a buff at all. Or maybe not just a straight buff. It doesn't have to be a 'clone' at all if you can demonstrate whatever you come up with works well as a moderate improvement to performance for a given circumstance without being overpowered.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
How would you approach that? Do a clone of Follow up from Claws? Rage from Super Strength? AAO from Shield Defense? A Fiery Embrace clone? There are only so many ways to get that short burst of +DMG, To Hit in the game, or to add an amount that averages out to be along the lines of Rage, AAO etc. I think Samuel spelled it out pretty well in his response. I was looking at a pretty straight forward set. Nothing too gimmicky.
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It was also why I'd originally gone with Spines as the template since currently only Scrappers and Stalkers get Spines. Also, considering that Radiation Attacks are (energy, -def) in that sense it is unique for a melee set. Katana/Broadsword attacks are (Lethal, -def). Energy does (Smashing, Energy and Disorient). Electric does (Smashing, Energy, some sleep, some disorient, some -endurance). Again, most of the Radiation attacks in the game do -def, which is why I continued with that as the secondary effect, which is counter to what Energy does: Disorient. |
-Electric Blast has -endurance and -recovery while Electric Melee adds 'chance of sleep' to this.
-Energy Blast does knockback. Energy Melee does stun.
If you're coming up with a melee set for fun, then have fun with it! Don't let yourself be contained by the norm and think outside the box.
Random suggestions:
1. Uhhhh... OP, might wanna look over some of the power suggestions you list, some of them still are saying that radiation melee would do lethal damage.
2. As something to wed both Sam and Leo's ideas, I propose that instead of just build up, you get Power Build Up like the Defender Epic. it also can be renamed and help fits the idea of radiation, perhaps call it "Self mutation"? (And seriously, what's the worst a scrapper could really do with ten seconds of having ally buffs, debuffs, ally heals, and controls doubled in effectiveness that would make it a game breaker?)
Edit: Especially since this would take up the Primary slot.
3. One of the things I don't like about spines is how it's rather lacking in damage, perhaps there could be at least one power (maybe like: "Radiation Poisoning") that could be given to deal superior damage?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Just a couple of comments in general; first, I believe Kinetic Melee has at least one (maybe two, (sorry I haven't played the set since it beta'd, so I don't recall right off)) "ranged" attacks, so suggesting a set that has a minor range to it's PBAoE or Cone attacks isn't that big of a step out of bounds. Second, there is a unique self buffing power in the Radiation Armor (a previous thread. So, although a unique "Build Up" would be nice, I'm not sure it's necessary for the set. But, along this line, I've long thought that Radiation Melee should have a -Resist component to it, or perhaps better said, a "lingering" aspect (-Resist, -Def(?)). Maybe something like that could be leveraged to add a different flavor of "buffing" without having to set up a specific order of powers to build up attacks, or come up with another unique mechanic to provide a "build up" like power.
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1. Considering this was based originally off of Spines, which does lethal, I kept the lethal in. Also, Fire does lethal as well so it still fits, at least in my mind. |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Random suggestions:
1. Uhhhh... OP, might wanna look over some of the power suggestions you list, some of them still are saying that radiation melee would do lethal damage. 2. As something to wed both Sam and Leo's ideas, I propose that instead of just build up, you get Power Build Up like the Defender Epic. it also can be renamed and help fits the idea of radiation, perhaps call it "Self mutation"? (And seriously, what's the worst a scrapper could really do with ten seconds of having ally buffs, debuffs, ally heals, and controls doubled in effectiveness that would make it a game breaker?) Edit: Especially since this would take up the Primary slot. 3. One of the things I don't like about spines is how it's rather lacking in damage, perhaps there could be at least one power (maybe like: "Radiation Poisoning") that could be given to deal superior damage? |
2. Power Build Up is not only+DMG, +To Hit, but also boosts secondary effects, so you want the set to do an even LARGER -DEF? Hm.. Sounds pretty overpowered. I can see a variation on Dark Melee's "Soul Drain", but not the Epic; Power Build UP.
3. Spines is weak in up front damage, but makes up for it somewhat with Toxic DoT. The DoT I've proposed would be a Lingering Radiation/Radiation Poisoning effect. I'm not seeing a need for a Superior damage power, since this somewhat mirrors what is considered the highest damage set, Fiery Melee.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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As I mentioned in my previous post, I consider the DoT to be the "Lingering" aspect you mentioned. Maybe with the DoT I've proposed it could include a lingering -DEF. Maybe a variation on Dark Melee's "Soul Drain" could be used instead. |
Originally Posted by NuclearMedicine
But, along this line, I've long thought that Radiation Melee should have a -Resist component to it, or perhaps better said, a "lingering" aspect (-Resist, -Def(?)). Maybe something like that could be leveraged to add a different flavor of "buffing" without having to set up a specific order of powers to build up attacks, or come up with another unique mechanic to provide a "build up" like power.
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I know you'd like to have some sort of -Res in the set, beyond the Tanker Bruising. It seems like every time someone puts -res into a melee/blast set, the doomsayers cry "OVERPOWERED!!!" I'm also not sold on trying to fit it into the set either, much to your chagrin.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I am having fun with it, in-spite of what you may perceive. If I wasn't having fun with it I wouldn't have bothered to post it at all. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just remember that the secondary effect may be different or completely unrelated between it's various types of incarnations:
-Electric Blast has -endurance and -recovery while Electric Melee adds 'chance of sleep' to this. -Energy Blast does knockback. Energy Melee does stun. If you're coming up with a melee set for fun, then have fun with it! Don't let yourself be contained by the norm and think outside the box. |
As for thinking outside the box, I was chastised for thinking outside the box on my Radiation Armor set, which I found rather amusing. I can guarantee you I have no problems thinking outside the box.
I like what I've started with, but I'm always willing to hear other view points. It's very easy to get a narrow focus while working on something, so having fresh eyes is helpful.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Lol when I was saying have fun with it, I was referring to the criticism in that you seem to be trying to protect the premise behind your idea rather than allowing it to incorporate.
But I like reading the names people post for their powers too. That's part of the fun but you seemed to skip that.
Anyway, if we're just 'keeping it simple' here, I'd at least advice something interesting for the secondary effect. What about using the Contagious Confusion mechanic (sans the confusion) that spreads and stacks with the base effect? Maybe with a weak hold effect that can be multiplied by the number of enemies around to potenize the effect? Thinking about it, we only have a few control/debuff oriented sets: Stone Melee, Dark Melee and Ice Melee. Maybe if the theme behind this set was strong control (like Stone) focused debuffs (like Dark) or a mix of both at the cost of some damage (like Ice), it would warrant a better secondary effect?
As for the armor set, reading through the thread, it doesn't seem like you were being chastised. People were generally interested in the idea and providing feedback.
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I'll be the first to say that none of my ideas are perfect. I do like to explain the reasoning behind my choices. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to listen to suggestions that can or cannot be incorporated into the original idea. I'm just not interested in making changes every time someone makes a suggestion. I'd be chasing my tail on that. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Lol when I was saying have fun with it, I was referring to the criticism in that you seem to be trying to protect the premise behind your idea rather than allowing it to incorporate.
But I like reading the names people post for their powers too. That's part of the fun but you seemed to skip that. Anyway, if we're just 'keeping it simple' here, I'd at least advice something interesting for the secondary effect. What about using the Contagious Confusion mechanic (sans the confusion) that spreads and stacks with the base effect? Maybe with a weak hold effect that can be multiplied by the number of enemies around to potenize the effect? Thinking about it, we only have a few control/debuff oriented sets: Stone Melee, Dark Melee and Ice Melee. Maybe if the theme behind this set was strong control (like Stone) focused debuffs (like Dark) or a mix of both at the cost of some damage (like Ice), it would warrant a better secondary effect? As for the armor set, reading through the thread, it doesn't seem like you were being chastised. People were generally interested in the idea and providing feedback. |
For this particular set I did use names of powers within the game as I knew they would invoke images. I couldn't think of anything clever for the tier 1, so I left it as is.
The Contagious effect would be similar to Chain Induction from Electric Melee, or Jolting Chain from Electric Control. That goes against your comment about not having something unique, to set this apart. Not saying that it couldn't be incorporated, but that it would be similar to another powerset. Can I assume you're thinking along the lines of Rad Emission's Lingering Radiation or Enervating Field as a secondary effect to the chain?
I am slightly confused by your comment about making this a strong control/debuff set. I've got some Knockdown, some disorient and lots of -Def. Seems like Control/Debuff to me.
The only thing the three sets you've mentioned have in common is a hold. Well, that is if we are talking melee sets. I don't think having a hold in a -def set would fly, but I could be wrong. Can you explain further? Are you talking Melee sets or control sets?Anywhosit, thanks for the discussion.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Well those are only 2 powers in the entire game that use such an effect. So it's still a pretty rare type of of effect. If a set's secondary effect was the spreading of a debuff for greater effect through that mechanic, I'd like you to count how many powers/sets do such a thing and tell me if it's statistically unique. |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
The Contagious effect would be similar to Chain Induction from Electric Melee, or Jolting Chain from Electric Control. That goes against your comment about not having something unique, to set this apart. Not saying that it couldn't be incorporated, but that it would be similar to another powerset. Can I assume you're thinking along the lines of Rad Emission's Lingering Radiation or Enervating Field as a secondary effect to the chain?
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I am slightly confused by your comment about making this a strong control/debuff set. I've got some Knockdown, some disorient and lots of -Def. Seems like Control/Debuff to me.
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| The only thing the three sets you've mentioned have in common is a hold. Well, that is if we are talking melee sets. I don't think having a hold in a -def set would fly, but I could be wrong. Can you explain further? Are you talking Melee sets or control sets? |
The thing I'm trying to get across is -def is hardly a 'debuffing' debuff. Sure, it makes it easier to hit but outside of dodgy targets and helping your temp powers land, it's of little actual use for offense or defense. And a stun doesn't make it controlly either.
Not saying the set *should* be debuffy or controlly but that would be a viable avenues to take the set with its secondary effect. You really don't even need to reply, I'm just expressing the justification for other avenues of secondary effects and how it can differentiate set playstyle.
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I hate Power Syphon because it's a gimmick. I know it makes sense, somewhat, but the execution for it irks me, and it's one of the reasons I've let my kineticist linger. In general, I really dislike Follow Up style damage buffs, especially the one behind Dual Blades' Empower combo. It more or less forces the set to open with smaller attacks and work its way up to bigger attacks, whereas Build Up sets can go from big to small or small to big. This helps mitigate incoming damage as a Build Up + Head Splitter, say, can one-shot a minion, whereas Nimble Slash + Ablating Strike + Blinding Feint + Sweeping Strike takes much longer to do so.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You'd have to list specific examples to make your opinion clear. As I see it, unless you have something in the set that makes it feel/play uniquely, designing a set around a different type of self-buff is another alternative.
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Finally, I HATE HATE HATE Swap Ammo. Few things in a Blast set piss me off more than lacking a self damage buff - such as God damn Assault Rifle - and Dual Pistols does just that. The apparent benefit of Swap Ammo is considered to be so great that the rest of the set is gimped because of it, leading to what has to be THE most conflicting experience in the entire game. I REALLY wanted to play that set, because it's probably the coolest of all the Blast sets... But at the same time I REALLY didn't want to play the set because it's just not very good.
Gimmicks are overrated. Literally. When a set gets handed a gimmick power, it has to "pay" for having that gimmick power by losing effectiveness in other powers, all for the sake of having a gimmick which isn't even as good as what it's replacing. Power Syphon isn't even my biggest gripe with Kinetic Melee - it's the low-damage, high-cost ranged attack that bugs me.
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| Then play Stalkers. Dual Blades with BU is great and unique. It's a double edged sword, though. Vanilla BU has less effect over sustained DPS than what it gets replaced with (just take a look at Soul Drain, Followup/Blinding Feint and Power Siphon). On one hand, it gives great burst damage and is reliable but on the other hand, it won't let you do the things others can with those different powers. |
This is my problem in general - Build Up works. To my eyes, replacing a power which works just fine with another which doesn't always do that just for the sake of being different is not a good idea, or at the very least isn't a no-brainer. Different isn't bad in itself. Rage is different and it's cool. However, we're dangerously close to running out of different things that are cool, and some of the newer "different" stuff has had to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Not a good idea.
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| That's the idea, though. Different powers let sets do different things. You'll still get your Build up though if it is proliferated to Stalkers, so that's another reason I advocate 'new and different', because not only will it be new and different from existing sets, but it will be new and different by comparison of the other melees vs stalkers. |
My beef with the need for being different is that it makes every new set more bizarre than the last as the developers try to outdo their own weirdness in design. An it isn't necessary.
When I make a suggestion for, say, a Two-Handed Hammer Brute, I'm really not asking for anything groundbreaking (not in the figurative sense), in that I want a set that hits things with a big hammer. That's different enough for me. I don't need "Momentum" replacing Build Up, I don't need the hammer to inflict a "Bruising" effect, I don't need a hammer toss power or suchforth. I want one guy with a big hammer hitting people, done in as simple a fashion as possible.
*edit*
As for the set itself, I'm not really a fan of it, to be honest, not as proposed. Its resemblance to Spines is a concern, since Spines is not a very good set. It was at one point, but now that so many melee sets have been buffed up or sped up, it lags behind with its slow animation and lack of single-target damage, to the point where Claws does much of the same, only better. A melee set really doesn't need need three or four ranged attacks. I suppose one could look at Electrical Melee and counter me with that, but I contend that - to keep to theme - that sort of AoE potential is what makes Electrical Melee "different." I'm hesitant to repeat that, because I'm not too much of a fan of the set, as lack of single-target damage makes fighting hard targets somewhat problematic.
I would personally go off the Broadsword model - four decent single-target melee attacks, an AoE and a Cone and something exotic. This is where another AoE or cone can come in, or where a very strong debuff can be found, something like a dumbed down Lingering Radiation or such.
I like gimmick sets as much as the next guy, but I'd prefer more solid and less "interesting" sets, if I had a choice.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I honestly can't respond to that post, Sam, as pretty much everything you said I'm against to the point I would *fight* to assure it is perceived as a minority opinion. It's just that, bold-faced, bad.
I usually don't go so far as to state it, and don't quite know how to explain it, but that opinion is wrong.
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Probably because of that gimmicky 'Follow Up' power...Ever stick a Gaussian BU proc in it? Better than sticking it in Build Up, that's for sure.
| As for the set itself, I'm not really a fan of it, to be honest, not as proposed. Its resemblance to Spines is a concern, since Spines is not a very good set. It was at one point, but now that so many melee sets have been buffed up or sped up, it lags behind with its slow animation and lack of single-target damage, to the point where Claws does much of the same, only better. |
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You're free to feel as you do, even if going out of your way to silence me strikes me as more than a little unfair, considering my opinion ought to be worth as much as yours. Especially considering most "new" stuff since pretty much I6 onward has been a fit for your opinion, I'm not sure why it worries you that I may have something I like for a change.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I honestly can't respond to that post, Sam, as pretty much everything you said I'm against to the point I would *fight* to assure it is perceived as a minority opinion. It's just that, bold-faced, bad.
I usually don't go so far as to state it, and don't quite know how to explain it, but that opinion is wrong. |
What I do know is you're not going to change my opinion, especially with arguments like that. I prefer simple, I prefer conventional, and that's just how I feel.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, the basis of your opinion is simply disfunctional. For one, a set you applaud for its simplicity, Broadsword/Katana, already has a unique feature no other sets have that sets it and it's playstyle apart from the rest. No other set has a self-buffing power like Parry/Divine Avalanche. By your word, you denounce that uniqueness and laud homogeneity.
Nearly *every* melee set has something it can hold up as unique/rare that can offer alternate tactics or differing playstyles, even the ones that came with the game. And just because they are different doesn't mean it's somehow clunky by comparison otherwise all those posts I've opposed saying DM is inferior on a Stalker are also false (just to point, I always said Stalker DM was great and versatile because it has a BU that requires no ToHit check or multiple enemies for more consistent burst but still acknowledged Soul Drain's burst abilities in specific circumstances and it's greater effect on sustained DPS).
You're entitled to keep your opinion. Perhaps later, when I don't see it through red tinted glasses, I'd be willing to discuss it civilly but as of now, it's simply wrong.
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I probably said that wrong. I don't mean to argue against uniqueness and variety, so much that I mean to argue against using them as an excuse for introducing awkward, stilted mechanics. All I wanted to say is that "different," while desirable, isn't a quality that trumps "good" or "convenient."|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Nearly *every* melee set has something it can hold up as unique/rare that can offer alternate tactics or differing playstyles, even the ones that came with the game. And just because they are different doesn't mean it's somehow clunky by comparison.
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Contrary to how I may have came off, I don't have a problem with alternatives to Build Up. My problem is that I HATE most of the alternatives we have to it right now, and fear that newer ones will be even worse as the game runs out of options. But, hey, if we come up with a good alternative, I have no problem giving it a shot. So long as it's not a Follow Up clone or, heaven help us, a Swap Ammo clone.
Really, variety and uniqueness are good things. It's just that the developers seem to interpret them as "even more situational" when I don't feel it needs to be that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well I'll give you Swap Ammo. That is a pretty ill-conceived power, or at least doesn't live up to its potential. It honestly should be the 50/50 lethal/special damage or even 30/60 lethal/special damage. The 60/30 ratio we have is just not worth it even if you get to choose it.
But the other things you say, yeah you can not like it, but Follow up/Blinding Feint is not awkward or stilted. Neither is Soul Drain. Neither is Power Siphon. In fact, all of those are superior to Build Up in several ways.
As far as your opinion goes, now that you clarify it, you're basically on the 'duh' side of the argument. Meaning: Yeah, no one wants the devs to introduce convoluted messes that are wholly situational or mediocre. But no one's suggesting they do either.
And referring to the 'momentum' idea, that was simply an experiment if I could create something that 'simulates' the concept of momentum. Would I want a Hammer set to use it? Probably not but if we were ever getting a set that hinged its concept upon something like momentum, I'd expect it to feel different from normal sets since this is a 'Superhero' game, we'd need 'Super momentum' to portray it.
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Err... I apologise. I pulled the word "momentum" out of a hat to make it seem like I had more examples to give than I actually did |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And referring to the 'momentum' idea, that was simply an experiment if I could create something that 'simulates' the concept of momentum. Would I want a Hammer set to use it? Probably not but if we were ever getting a set that hinged its concept upon something like momentum, I'd expect it to feel different from normal sets since this is a 'Superhero' game, we'd need 'Super momentum' to portray it.
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I didn't realise, or rather didn't remember, that you'd actually suggested it before. That was my bad.Really, I just want a power that grants a short-duration, high-yield damage buff so as to give me a very strong alpha strike, and Build Up is just the best power I can think of to do that. I know it may be passé, but I'd rather look for innovation elsewhere.
Secondary effects are an interesting opportunity, as is a non-standard utility power - as you mentioned, like Parry. I keep thinking Lingering Radiation, or something like it, might be a good fit here, and it would be quite novel among melee sets.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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But it's ONLY lethal in the powers that have it. How is radiation, something that's been established as doing energy damage, only deal lethal?|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
1. Considering this was based originally off of Spines, which does lethal, I kept the lethal in. Also, Fire does lethal as well so it still fits, at least in my mind.
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Also, fiery and Ice melee deal lethal because you're creating swords with said elements.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
2. Power Build Up is not only+DMG, +To Hit, but also boosts secondary effects, so you want the set to do an even LARGER -DEF? Hm.. Sounds pretty overpowered. I can see a variation on Dark Melee's "Soul Drain", but not the Epic; Power Build UP.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
3. Spines is weak in up front damage, but makes up for it somewhat with Toxic DoT. The DoT I've proposed would be a Lingering Radiation/Radiation Poisoning effect. I'm not seeing a need for a Superior damage power, since this somewhat mirrors what is considered the highest damage set, Fiery Melee.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Just have every attack beat the person over the head with a barrel of radioactive waste, clearly marked. Except for one attack that throws it at someone.
As far as "Oh no not build up again," there's nothing wrong with build up. If you want "a little different," then copy Fiery Embrace. Call it Radiation Burn.
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I actually like having the toggle PBAoE. I included one in my version of Radiation Melee in the Lady-Jade thread. It was a little different than a normal damage toggle though.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Radiation Melee Ver. 1
Looking at the original conversion I didn't think the Tier 7 would fly as is and plugged in Neutron Bomb in it's place. Since Neutron Bomb in the game is a ranged version I would change it to be a PBAoE for the melee set, hence the "Converted". It could also have it's range shortened so that it was similar to Electric Melee's "Thunder Strike" power and become it's own Melee(Targeted AoE) instead of a PBAoE. |
Here's the power I suggested:
Core Breach -- PBAoE Toggle, Damage Special*
*Combination of 3 PBAoE Damage Auras, one each 5' Radius, 8' Radius and 12' Radius. Net effect is that the closer the mob is to you the more damage they take each Tick
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Perhaps you did read the suggestion but forgot, because the similarities of your 'hammer and momentum' example seems really convenient.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Err... I apologise. I pulled the word "momentum" out of a hat to make it seem like I had more examples to give than I actually did
I didn't realise, or rather didn't remember, that you'd actually suggested it before. That was my bad. |
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Really, I just want a power that grants a short-duration, high-yield damage buff so as to give me a very strong alpha strike, and Build Up is just the best power I can think of to do that. I know it may be passé, but I'd rather look for innovation elsewhere. Secondary effects are an interesting opportunity, as is a non-standard utility power - as you mentioned, like Parry. I keep thinking Lingering Radiation, or something like it, might be a good fit here, and it would be quite novel among melee sets. |
Someone would have to actually suggest a replacement before you can really speak down of its alpha strike capabilities vs BU. Of the top of my head, an alternate BU power: Meldown- click self buff with a bigger buff than BU that decays over time, eventually to a portion of -dmg for a time. Thinking about it, such a power would actually be quite good on Brute vs Scrapper since, just like +dmg, -dmg has less of an impact on a Brute. And a set that caters more to a certain AT isn't a bad thing so long as it's not debilitating to any in particular.
Nuclear Medicine, aka Warboss, has been "bugging" me in a joking fashion to come up with a Radiation Melee set for a couple of months now. So I decided to "bite". Below I have three different ideas/versions of Radiation Melee. You'll see how things evolved from the original to the latest version. But we'll start with the first iteration.
Looking at the current melee sets in the game I felt that "Spines" was the powerset that gave a nice basis/template for Radiation. I liked the idea of DoT that's associated with the set and figured it would translate well to Radiation.
With that in mind, I took the Spine's set, changed the Toxic Dmg to Energy and changed the -spd/-recharge to -def. Looking at Radiation powers/attacks that already exist in game I used them in the Tier where their description fit best. I'm not stating that the current power would be used as it exists in game, just using them as examples. Damage, endurance costs, and recharge times would have to balanced across the board. This has also been rearranged into a tank melee layout.
Radiation Melee Ver. 1
Looking at the original conversion I didn't think the Tier 7 would fly as is and plugged in Neutron Bomb in it's place. Since Neutron Bomb in the game is a ranged version I would change it to be a PBAoE for the melee set, hence the "Converted". It could also have it's range shortened so that it was similar to Electric Melee's "Thunder Strike" power and become it's own Melee(Targeted AoE) instead of a PBAoE.
Radiation Melee Ver. 2
After bouncing the idea back and forth between Warboss and myself we finalized on something that no longer resembled Spines, but now closely resembled Fiery Melee. The overall DPS of this version would have to be balanced so that it didn't replace Fiery as the best dmg set.
Radiation Melee Ver. 3-12-2011
- Tier 1; Melee, Minor DMG (Lethal), DoT (Energy), Foe -DEF
- Tier 2; Contaminated Strike - Melee, Moderate DMG (Energy/Smash, Foe Knockdown) Foe -Defense
- Tier 3; Irradiate - PBAoE, Moderate DMG (Lethal), DoT (Energy), Foe -DEF
- Tier 4; Taunt - Ranged, Foe Taunt, -Range
- Tier 5; Radioactive Smash - Melee, High DMG (Energy/Smash, Foe Knockdown), Foe Disorient, -Defense, -Fly
- Tier 6; Build Up - Self +DMG, +To-Hit
- Tier 7; Electron Haze - Close (Cone), Moderate DMG (Lethal), DoT (Energy), Foe - DEF
- Tier 8; Converted Neutron Bomb -PBAoE, Moderate DoT (Energy), Foe -DEF
- Tier 9; Cosmic Burst - Close(Single Target) , High DoT (Energy), Foe -DEF
I think all three are viable as Radiation Melee sets, but I'm not leaning towards any particular version.So, what do you guys think?
Do you like the idea of basing Radiation Melee off of Spines?
If not Spines, what other current melee set?
Are you ok with the third version being very "Fiery Melee"?
Which of the three versions do you think fits your concept of Rad Melee better?
If you think one version is "overpowered", how would you change it up to make it balanced?
Mixing and matching what's here, how would you put a Rad melee set together?
Any constructive feedback is always appreciated.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
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