AS needs to recharge in 1.452 which is 313% recharge
SS needs to recharge in 3.828 which is 187% recharge
BF needs to recharge in 3.828 which is 213% recharge
AS will need a total of 313% if you can fit 100% in the power which should be easy now with the Alpha all you need is 213% global which is still a lot.
As for your other question I don't know.
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As a rough but educated guess, under those conditions, only about 5% higher, assuming "proper" slotting and recharge for both, including both Achilles' Heel and Fury of the Gladiator.
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Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
BF-AS-SS-AS... How does this chain, using a Spiritual Alpha, stack against the easier BF-Attack Vitals, if the latter has a Musculature?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
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Then there's builds who can't even reach the optimal recharge. On my DB/Inv, I'm getting on paper 214 pylon DPS with BF>AV Musculature and only 219 pylon DPS with BF>AS>SS>AS on a maximum recharge, no defense at all build.
That said, BF>AS>SS>AS is better than the numbers show compared to BF>AV in team gameplay as it benefits from external recharge buffs, doesn't require a combo to go off and outside of AVs, the gaps tend to be filled by the time taken to jump from mob to mob.
Once you add procs into the mix the differences become quite significant, and due to BF musculature won't make that big of an impact.
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Procs were included in my estimate. But I agree that Blinding Feint reduces the impact of Musculature, and perhaps I didn't allow enough for that effect. I actually came up with about 6% with my back of the envelope calculation, and perhaps 7% would be more accurate. But 5% was a nice round number. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Once you add procs into the mix the differences become quite significant, and due to BF musculature won't make that big of an impact.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Which procs did you use? Both AS and SS can have a purple damage proc and a -res proc, and BF can have the Gaussian proc.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Procs were included in my estimate. But I agree that Blinding Feint reduces the impact of Musculature, and perhaps I didn't allow enough for that effect. I actually came up with about 6% with my back of the envelope calculation, and perhaps 7% would be more accurate. But 5% was a nice round number.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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BF->AS->SS->AS|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Which procs did you use? Both AS and SS can have a purple damage proc and a -res proc, and BF can have the Gaussian proc.
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Blinding Feint: Mako's BiteBF-> AS -> VS -> SS
Ablating Strike: Purple, Achilles' Heel
Sweeping Strike: Purple, Fury of the Gladiator
Blinding Feint: PurpleWhile I haven't done the math, my guess is that the Gaussian proc in Blinding Feint wouldn't be as good as even a simple damage proc due to the low contribution of base damage to either chain. Besides, you're going to want the proc with its set, which is to say not in Blinding Feint.
Ablating Strike: Mako's Bite, Achilles' Heel
Vengeful Slice: Mako's Bite, Explosive Strike
Sweeping Strike: Purple, Fury of the Gladiator
The part I didn't check carefully was the effect of musculature, which I merely guessed. Let me do it a little more carefully, then, as I could be a little or even way off. Without the alpha slot, I have my Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals chain buffed up to 214 DPS on a pure DPS build. Probably only about 50 DPS of that is base damage. We'll assume ED capped damage enhancement, so you get 30% + 15%*15% = 32.25% enhancement, for about 16 DPS. That brings us to 230 DPS. I have the top chain with no gaps at 249 DPS, again on a pure DPS build. So my more detailed calculation says a 8% difference instead of a 5% difference, so even farther than my reestimating. So yeah, you're right, the difference is more significant than my initial guess.
(Edit: Typo'd 214 as 224, and the rest was off because of that.)
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Gaussian proc isn't worth it, a normal damage proc will provide a bigger damage increase.
Edit: Wernerblocked.
Strange, the difference is a bit higher with my calculations. How did you calc the -res?
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I just checked that, and it seems that it is worth it in this particular instance.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Gaussian proc isn't worth it, a normal damage proc will provide a bigger damage increase.
Edit: Wernerblocked. |
The Gaussian proc gives you a 5% damage buff to the AS-SS-AS part of the attack chain. The base damage of that is 304, which makes for about 15 damage gained from the Gaussian proc. A regular damage proc gives you about 14 damage.
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If it was indeed a 100% chance for a 5% damage buff, I'd agree ; but it's a 5% chance for a 100% damage buff. That means it goes off on average once every ~2 minutes of nonstop attacking, and for you to get the most out of it you have to keep attacking right after it goes off, and not have more than 100% additional damage buff (BF + Assault putting you at around ~300% already) on you.
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Well, DPS only matters in those lengthy fights anyway, and when it does go off it's more noticeable which for me is a plus.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
If it was indeed a 100% chance for a 5% damage buff, I'd agree ; but it's a 5% chance for a 100% damage buff. That means it goes off on average once every ~2 minutes of nonstop attacking, and for you to get the most out of it you have to keep attacking right after it goes off, and not have more than 100% additional damage buff (BF + Assault putting you at around ~300% already) on you.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Can't agree with that. I certainly notice when I kill a boss in 10 seconds rather than 15, and it's certainly a big speed boost overall considering everyone kills bazillions of bosses in their superpowered career.| Well, DPS only matters in those lengthy fights anyway |
Can't understand why would someone who believe DPS only matters in lengthy fights would ever build for it, considering the vast majority of the game is fast and quick fights, but hey, YMMV and all that.
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I'm applying the the number of chances that a -resist proc is active to each attack individually, recognizing that the two stack with each other, but not with themselves. If you want to see an example calculation, here's the first Ablating Strike from the top chain:|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Strange, the difference is a bit higher with my calculations. How did you calc the -res?
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=95%*(82.6*(100%+89.93%+95%*37.5%*2+22%+10.5%+5%*5 .25/10)*110%+33%*107.1)*(100%+(100%-81%^4)*20%)*(100%+(100%-81%^2)*20%)So four chances for Achilles' Heel, two chances for Fury of the Gladiator, 95% chance to hit. Also, two stacks of Blinding Feint, 22% damage enhancement from sets, 10.5% from Assault, Gaussian proc in Tactics, Purple proc in the attack.
But there's no reason we wouldn't get fairly different numbers anyway, even if we used the exact same calculations. I'm using an ancient Super Reflexes DPS template build adapted for both chains with no specific optimization for the primary, let alone the chain, as I was trying to compare primaries under "equal" conditions. No idea what you're using, but I guarantee it isn't the exact same builds, so there will be differences. But we're just ballparking anyway, so all this exact math is perhaps a bit too exact unless we have specific builds from the OP to compare.
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I agree 100% with Nihili on this. Sometimes a story works to show it better than math.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Can't agree with that. I certainly notice when I kill a boss in 10 seconds rather than 15, and it's certainly a big speed boost overall considering everyone kills bazillions of bosses in their superpowered career.
Can't understand why would someone who believe DPS only matters in lengthy fights would ever build for it, considering the vast majority of the game is fast and quick fights, but hey, YMMV and all that. |
I started paying attention to the attack chain threads and trying to maximize damage rather than just frankenslot and the difference was pretty incredible. The biggest change was on my dark/dark stalker who went from mediocre to extraordinary.
I was originally using a random selection of Air Superiority, Shadow Punch, Smite, Siphon Life and Midnight Grasp without regard to pacing or recharge or overkill. Bosses took upwards of 10 hits if I didn't start with AS+Buildup. I could drop a minion with a MG critical, but otherwise I was looking at 3 hits to kill them. Based on some threads here and in the Tanker forum, I dropped shadow punch, and got enough global recharge to run MG-Smite-SL-Smite and still have 97%-102% damage slotted in each attack plus mako's proc in smite and touch of death in Midnight. The difference was night and day. Now I kill almost anything in two blows. MG-Smite is one dead, SL-Smite is another down. Against bosses it not only takes fewer hits (because I'm using better attacks more often) but they land faster too. In my case it was more like a difference of 30+ seconds to 10-12 to drop a boss.
I don't do solo AV fights, I don't do the pylon test. But I care about good attack chains because it makes every single mission more fun.
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Yeah It was a stretch to say it only matters in lengthy fights. I was more referring to the fact that DPA can be more important than DPS in shorter fights, which doesn't really relate to the proc discussion.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Can't agree with that. I certainly notice when I kill a boss in 10 seconds rather than 15, and it's certainly a big speed boost overall considering everyone kills bazillions of bosses in their superpowered career.
Can't understand why would someone who believe DPS only matters in lengthy fights would ever build for it, considering the vast majority of the game is fast and quick fights, but hey, YMMV and all that. |
The proc will still let you kill some of those bazillion bosses faster(significantly faster than the damage proc), just not as reliably. It's really a YMMV thing.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
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I tested it on my personal build listed below. I added procs to VS and changed to Musculature when checking out the BF-AV DPS, and gaps in the BF-AS-SS-AS chain were accounted for.|
Originally Posted by Werner
all this exact math is perhaps a bit too exact unless we have specific builds from the OP to compare.
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http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...72C27FFC04E4F9
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Last I heard, the optimal DB chain uses BF-AS-SS-AS, needing insane (well beyond perma-hasten) amounts of recharge in AS to make it possible.
Question 1: How much recharge does it require?
Question 2: How does this chain, using a Spiritual Alpha, stack against the easier BF-Attack Vitals, if the latter has a Musculature?
I'd do the math for the 1st question... but I'm a) lazy and b) pretty sure someone has the info more or less on hand. I have no idea how to math out the second question.