City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Demons/Pain or Demons/Dark?

CelestiaCoH

By CelestiaCoH,
Posted on: 2011-02-17 14:35 in Masterminds

 

Posted

I have been playing my demons/pain MM lately and have been having fun. But only recently realized that most of the aoe and damage sadly comes from the minnions, and not the Demon prince. So as pain, it seems that it would be better to pain demons with dark, who is better at keeping the little ones alive to get the most out of their aoe damage no?

What are your thoughts on the matter? What reasons would you suggest one over the other? Likewise, if I wanted a pain, what would be a better suggestion for a MM primary to pair it with? Or do you think that demons makes the best use out of /pain?

Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental

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Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windenergy21 View Post
What makes thugs/pain a good combo?
Lots and lots of ToHit, the ability to heal allies that have a good chunk of inherent defense (Enforcers), stacked +Damage, putting Painbringer on the Bruiser, Anguishing Cry coupled with the gobs of AoE, the ability to use Share Pain on an enemy and reap the damage bonus with your Patron/inherent attacks, actually being able to keep the damn Arsonist alive(!).

It's incredibly synergistic.

My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."

 

Posted

I'm still kinda new to non-Demon MMs. What does the bruiser do, describe the enforcers +defense and how it works. And what is the arsonist? tier 1, 2, or 3(assuming bruiser) pets? If its a small minnion of the tier 1 level 1 variety It seems to me they die a little fast.

the to hit i'm not worried about, slotting + supremecy + tactics make that a non-issue for me. I only play blueside.

Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental

Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration

Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windenergy21 View Post
I'm still kinda new to non-Demon MMs. What does the bruiser do, describe the enforcers +defense and how it works. And what is the arsonist? tier 1, 2, or 3(assuming bruiser) pets? If its a small minnion of the tier 1 level 1 variety It seems to me they die a little fast.

the to hit i'm not worried about, slotting + supremecy + tactics make that a non-issue for me. I only play blueside.
The Bruiser is essentially a Super Strength Brute. He generates Fury and is a melee combatant. When fully upgraded, he has KO Blow, Foot Stomp, Jab, Punch, Haymaker, Hand Clap and Hurl.

The Enforcers have their own Leadership pool, and it's incredibly effective. Slotted with one +Defense IO each Enforcer will bring about 10% defense to all, making for 20% defense when you have both. They also have Tactics and Assault.

The Arsonist is your level 18 Tier 1 pet. He's essentially a Fire Corruptor. His abilities can Scourge, and he also has Fire Patches (like Burn) that will rip enemies to pieces. Because he is almost completely AoE, he dies ALL THE TIME. Pain Domination has lots of healing, so it helps to keep the Arsonist alive when he inadvertently takes an alpha strike.

I mention ToHit because World of Pain has a +ToHit component, which will stack with Supremacy, Tactics and the Enforcer's tactics. The Bruiser has a great chunk of inherent resistance, so WoP will also aid him.

My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."

 

Posted

A high recharge /Pain build could really help Demons since you get an AoE resist power you can use to quickly buff the team (a lot less annoying than Thermal). However, you need a fair bit of recharge to make World of Pain permanent... still, Demons are tougher than average even without buffs and healing works best with tough pets. Thugs are probably the best choice since they have a great target for Painbringer and enough defense to keep them alive long enough to heal them, but Demons aren't a bad choice either. (On Demons / Pain I'd use Painbringer on the Hellfire Gargoyle since he's pretty much all offense.)

I do consider Demons/Dark a bit better for most purposes though. You can effectively "softcap" your pets by flooring the enemy's to-hit and Tar Patch is great for speeding up fights. However, against AVs /Pain is probably better because to-hit debuffs do very little against those while resists and heals still work fine.

Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
A high recharge /Pain build could really help Demons since you get an AoE resist power you can use to quickly buff the team (a lot less annoying than Thermal). However, you need a fair bit of recharge to make World of Pain permanent... still, Demons are tougher than average even without buffs and healing works best with tough pets. Thugs are probably the best choice since they have a great target for Painbringer and enough defense to keep them alive long enough to heal them, but Demons aren't a bad choice either. (On Demons / Pain I'd use Painbringer on the Hellfire Gargoyle since he's pretty much all offense.)

I do consider Demons/Dark a bit better for most purposes though. You can effectively "softcap" your pets by flooring the enemy's to-hit and Tar Patch is great for speeding up fights. However, against AVs /Pain is probably better because to-hit debuffs do very little against those while resists and heals still work fine.
The -res and -regen in Dark make it nice for AVs. Also the gobs of -to-hit still come nicely in the right builds.

 

Posted

This is a build I am considering.. Its demon Pain

Regen is at 636% which is modest scrapper / brute regeneration numbers.

Then I have Provoke to bring mobs onto me. Then I have Invoke panic which is an AOE Fear.

My defenses are 41% to AOE, 45% to Range, and 23% to Melee. I am hoping that between my defenses, my regen and the ability to cause Panic I will be able to control to some extent the amount of attacks coming. At least enough to have Regen work.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Pain Domination
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Presence
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Summon Demonlings -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(3), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(3), BldM'dt-Dmg(7), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), BldM'dt-Acc(21)
Level 1: Nullify Pain -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Numna-Heal/Rchg(7)
Level 2: Lash -- FrcFbk-Rechg%(A)
Level 4: Soothe -- Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(A), RgnTis-Heal/Rchg(5), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(11)
Level 6: Enchant Demon -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(9), KntkC'bat-Knock%(17)
Level 10: Conduit of Pain -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Summon Demons -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(13), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(13), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), BldM'dt-Acc(15), BldM'dt-Dmg(25)
Level 14: Provoke -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(25), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(34), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(39), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(42), Mocking-Rchg(46)
Level 16: Intimidate -- Abys-Acc/Rchg(A)
Level 18: Hell on Earth -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(19), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(19), BldM'dt-Dmg(23), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), BldM'dt-Acc(31)
Level 20: Suppress Pain -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Heal(21), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Numna-Heal/Rchg(33), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(40)
Level 22: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 24: Invoke Panic -- N'mare-Acc/Rchg(A), N'mare-EndRdx/Fear(48), N'mare-Acc/EndRdx(48)
Level 26: Summon Demon Prince -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), BldM'dt-Acc(29), BldM'dt-Dmg(31)
Level 28: World of Pain -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-EndRdx(34), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(36), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(37), RedFtn-Def(37), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(36), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), RctvArm-EndRdx(50), RctvArm-ResDam(50)
Level 38: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(39), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 41: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(42), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Build%(43), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(46)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(45), RedFtn-EndRdx(45), RedFtn-Def(45), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(46), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 47: Anguishing Cry -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Painbringer -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(34)
Level 2: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(A), Efficacy-EndMod(17), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(23)



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1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
Thugs/Pain is a great combo. I have a 36 Demon/Dark, and he's able to pull 3-4 x5 mobs at once (tested on accident) with minimal casualties.
I've gotten my Thugs/Pain mm up to 44 and love her. I'm playing her as a tankermind with Temp Invuln to stack with World of Pain. Delicious!

I find myself tossing Painbringer on the arsonist more often than the Bruiser, as Sparky has a deathwish and Painbringer keeps him up and running.

Queen of the Amazons, WP/DB
Sound Judgement Son/Son
Cobra Lily Plant/Kin
Celestia, FF/Psy
Nefertiri, Storm/Elec
Pixie, Ill/Rad
Guardian Server

 

Posted

Well I am liking the idea of demons/dark and thugs/pain now XD lol. But with the defense I'm also thinking thugs/ff would be good maybe better? Not sure just kinda thinking cause my demons/pain is level 27 now lol. Maybe i'd do both who knows.

Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental

Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration

Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windenergy21 View Post
Well I am liking the idea of demons/dark and thugs/pain now XD lol. But with the defense I'm also thinking thugs/ff would be good maybe better? Not sure just kinda thinking cause my demons/pain is level 27 now lol. Maybe i'd do both who knows.
I'm running a Thug/FF now. At level 14 all of his minions have 21% Defense to all with one Enforcer. Can't wait for the next one and my Dispersion Bubble.

My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
I'm running a Thug/FF now. At level 14 all of his minions have 21% Defense to all with one Enforcer. Can't wait for the next one and my Dispersion Bubble.
Yeah that seems pretty nice. For gang war, do they all come out at once? or do they trickle out dispersed? I.E. would world of pain be easy to cast on all of them right after you call them out?

Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental

Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration

Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server

 

Posted

from how i recall it, they appear over a few seconds, anchored on the target, so if the target dies, you only get what you summoned that far. So always pick the biggest thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*