Tradable subscription time salvage. Read for explanation.


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Something that I've been thinking about for a while is, why not allow players to buy a piece of salvage that can be traded for game time? You pay $15, you get a "Paragon City Rent Card" salvage which when traded to an NPC, adds 30 days to your account. Make those tradable, and then people who like to organize events can have those as prizes, or have an easy way to keep friends playing. It would mean more money for NCsoft. EVE Online already has something like this.

Sure, if they are freely tradable, they would be exchanged for influence, too. I expect then to hit the 2 billion influence cap in the market and stay there (and even if you could split them into four one-week salvage pieces, they would still hit the 2 billion influence cap and stay there). I don't see this being bad, necessarily: for one, the influence is not being created out of thin air, it already exists in the game; second, it would seriously undermine RMTers, and give that money to NCsoft instead; third, the fees for selling those in the market would result in a lot of influence being drained. It would effectively be an influence sink, and give NCsoft more money to boot (because some people would be buying them just to trade for influence).

With the conversion for Notice of the Well costing 100 million inf, you can expect a lot of people to seriously consider RMT in order to afford all the incarnate abilities. This would give them a legit way to get inf without encouraging RMT.

Also, this would allow some form of free to play; some people would buy the salvage pieces just to exchange them for influence, and others would give that influence to avoid paying for the month. From NCsoft perspective, however, everybody's account is still being paid by $15 a month, though now the $15 don't necessarily come from the account's owner.

One problem would be people who use a fraudulent card to buy those or reverts the payment in PayPal. A way to deal with that would be to make the salvage untradable until it passes a certain window of time; if you buy it with a credit card, you can only apply it to your own account until a week passes and the transaction was fully verified; if you bought with PayPal, you can't trade it until whatever period PayPal has to revert transfers; if you apply a game time card, though, since you paid for it elsewhere, it would be tradable right away.

Thoughts?


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Posted

interesting concept, i dont think poeple will rush to the RMTers for 100 mil inf, even the average person can make around 30+ mil a day selling on the market (one of my RL friends who knows almost nothing about this game just sells everything on the market and already has a respectable amount of money)

i do see what your suggesting though possible good for the game economy because it will move money around, and allow poeple who have inf in game, but lack the ability to pay monthly (credit cards/pay pal wont work, or hard time finding time cards) will have another route to be able to stay subscribed


 

Posted

Interesting thought... And it's something I (and friends) would have used in the past. Someone having a rough RL time, might be dropping out of the game because of money? Well, you can't gift *anything* now (at least easily,) this way you could.

And with the craft cost for the NOTW, I've been thinking RMTers would start aiming at this game more strongly again - this would short circuit that a bit.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
And with the craft cost for the NOTW, I've been thinking RMTers would start aiming at this game more strongly again - this would short circuit that a bit.
Why would adding something that costs a hundred million, a cost that can be circumvented by playing on a team for short time, cause a sudden demand for RMT? Anyone who would go the RMT route over NotW would already be doing so over Purple and PvP IOs.

As to the Original suggestion, as long as it doesn't end up throwing the market off too much, I"m rather indifferent. I make enough inf that I wouldn't buy the PCRC with real money, but not enough to think I'd be able buy one with Inf.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow State View Post
Why would adding something that costs a hundred million, a cost that can be circumvented by playing on a team for short time, cause a sudden demand for RMT? Anyone who would go the RMT route over NotW would already be doing so over Purple and PvP IOs.
Like it or not, there is a demand for RMT already. This conversation happened not long ago with someone on my SG:

01-27-2011 21:17:09 [Tell] ***: lol i have this one and a BS/sheild scrapper but thats it lol
01-27-2011 21:17:22 [Tell] ***: OH and a MM but i dont play her and a DM/fire brute
01-27-2011 21:17:39 [Tell] -->***: are you properly slotting them, or short on cash again?
01-27-2011 21:18:37 [Tell] ***: i have my Fort all IO'd out i redid her build cause i did it stupid but now shes awesome
01-27-2011 21:18:47 [Tell] ***: she can do x8 solo
01-27-2011 21:19:02 [Tell] -->***: nice. I hope we get the rest of the incarnate stuff soon.
01-27-2011 21:19:08 [Tell] -->***: I want to solo giant monsters
01-27-2011 21:19:09 [Tell] ***: omg right lol
01-27-2011 21:19:46 [Tell] ***: i wanna lvl this toon to lvl 50 so i can IO her out
01-27-2011 21:20:02 [Tell] ***: dont tell anyone but i bought money =/ i hated not having any =(
01-27-2011 21:21:54 [Tell] ***: i want a good brute and all of mine suck =( im sick of my toons being so ******
01-27-2011 21:22:22 [Tell] ***: so i looked up some advice on how to slot and i made my fort orgasmic
01-27-2011 21:23:04 [Tell] -->***: you should have asked me for money.
01-27-2011 21:23:11 [Tell] -->***: how much did you pay for how much inf?
01-27-2011 21:23:36 [Tell] ***: well i paid $80 for 8bil
01-27-2011 21:23:43 [Tell] -->***: what the <bleep!>?
01-27-2011 21:23:44 [Tell] -->***: are you insane?
01-27-2011 21:23:51 [Tell] ***: and im not gonna ask you for money lol...you worked hard to get that
01-27-2011 21:23:58 [Tell] -->***: I gave away 5 billion on the channel yesterday
01-27-2011 21:24:08 [Tell] ***: okay now i officially hate you lol

That's $80 that NCsoft could have got, rather than some RMT company.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
Sure, if they are freely tradable, they would be exchanged for influence, too. I expect then to hit the 2 billion influence cap in the market and stay there (and even if you could split them into four one-week salvage pieces, they would still hit the 2 billion influence cap and stay there). I don't see this being bad, necessarily: for one, the influence is not being created out of thin air, it already exists in the game; second, it would seriously undermine RMTers, and give that money to NCsoft instead;
It could seriously skew the market in a dramatic way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
third, the fees for selling those in the market would result in a lot of influence being drained. It would effectively be an influence sink, and give NCsoft more money to boot (because some people would be buying them just to trade for influence).
I am not sure how it is an inf sink more than any other 2bil inf item. The inf isn't destroyed, (other than the market fee), it just gets transferred

I think its helpfulness is dubious.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
Like it or not, there is a demand for RMT already.
It's not at all clear that a 100mil cost for a NotW had anything to do with it.


 

Posted

In abstract I think it's not a bad idea. However in practice I'd be concerned about the impact it would have on the social aspects of the market. Prices on the market have always been a sore spot with a certain percentage of the game population. Allowing people to (effectively) purchase inf for real money is potentially going to make that worse. As soon as there is an officially supported real money value attached to Inf then there is a real money value attached to all items on the market. Do we really want to see threads where people complain about how many dollars it costs to purple their warshade?

For the curious, assuming that to purple your warshade you purchase full sets of: Absolute Amazement, Apocalypse, Armageddon, Hecatomb and Ragnarok to slot the most useful WS powers without running into rule of five this woul probably cost you something like 11 billion inf which, if you financed it entirely through subscription time salvage sold on the market for 2 billion each would, cost you about $90.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
Like it or not, there is a demand for RMT already. This conversation happened not long ago with someone on my SG:
Didn't say there wasn't, but the RMTs aren't going to "aiming at this game more strongly," as Bill fears, unless there's an increase in demand for their services, which I just can't see NotW doing.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by all_hell View Post
... The inf isn't destroyed, (other than the market fee)...
And even thats not a certainty. I'm almost willing to bet that the going rate would be more the 2B inf and the transactions would be done off the market.

If this type of Official RMT is going to take place, I'd much rather it be done with something that already has an inf cost, that way we can at least have some idea as to whether or not the Market can handle it. Easiest thing would probably be to make the Respec purchase grant a recipe.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
And with the craft cost for the NOTW, I've been thinking RMTers would start aiming at this game more strongly again - this would short circuit that a bit.
While I like the idea of the tradable time as above, I fail to see how the crafting cost of 100 mill is an issue when you need 88 shards...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow State View Post
Didn't say there wasn't, but the RMTs aren't going to "aiming at this game more strongly," as Bill fears, unless there's an increase in demand for their services, which I just can't see NotW doing.
Maybe not with the Alpha alone; however:

- Getting the Very Rare Alpha with just influence takes 400 million (plus shards, but I'm talking only influence costs here). Multiply that by 10 slots, and that's 4 billion influence per character.

- Not every character can slot a Gladiator 3% resistance, or a Panacea. But every single character can get the Incarnate abilities. There's not as much choice, either; if I can't afford Panacea I can slot the much cheaper Doctored Wounds, but when it comes to Incarnate slots, there's just one path.

- We don't know what the other slots are going to cost. What if Judgement needs 10 Notice of the Well to get the Very Rare? Or if Omega needs 20 Notice of the Well? The costs could get crazy very quickly. If each slot costs 2 billion influence to craft, that's 20 billion influence per character.

Ignoring the last point, it's still 4 billion influence per character with the currently known numbers; someone who wants to Incarnate a lot of 50s is looking at massive costs if they don't want to wait or don't have time to run the weekly task force for every Notice.

In any case, the Notice of the Well was just a tangential point to the original post. RMT is happening now, so even if it won't increase significantly due to the Incarnate salvage, it's still there.


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This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
Maybe not with the Alpha alone; however:

- Getting the Very Rare Alpha with just influence takes 400 million (plus shards, but I'm talking only influence costs here). Multiply that by 10 slots, and that's 4 billion influence per character.

- Not every character can slot a Gladiator 3% resistance, or a Panacea. But every single character can get the Incarnate abilities. There's not as much choice, either; if I can't afford Panacea I can slot the much cheaper Doctored Wounds, but when it comes to Incarnate slots, there's just one path.

- We don't know what the other slots are going to cost. What if Judgement needs 10 Notice of the Well to get the Very Rare? Or if Omega needs 20 Notice of the Well? The costs could get crazy very quickly. If each slot costs 2 billion influence to craft, that's 20 billion influence per character.

Ignoring the last point, it's still 4 billion influence per character with the currently known numbers; someone who wants to Incarnate a lot of 50s is looking at massive costs if they don't want to wait or don't have time to run the weekly task force for every Notice.

In any case, the Notice of the Well was just a tangential point to the original post. RMT is happening now, so even if it won't increase significantly due to the Incarnate salvage, it's still there.
The thing is by the time you've farmed up the 88 shards needed for a NOTW you should have way more than 100million. Yes, it's a large chunk of change but the time required to get it is miniscule compared to the time required to get the shards.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow State View Post
And even thats not a certainty. I'm almost willing to bet that the going rate would be more the 2B inf and the transactions would be done off the market.
I agree, which is why I included the provision of splitting them in one-week tokens. HOWEVER, this is still a good attack on RMT: in the log above, you can see that the going rate is $10 for 1 billion. If someone can buy a 30-day salvage for $15 and get over 2 billion inf, RMT will have to either collapse their prices by a huge amount, or fold.

Also, even discounting market fees in the specific item, people who want influence are going to eventually use it for something, usually in the market. If you directly trade 3 billion with someone, that someone will still go to the market to get their recipes/salvage/IOs, at which point the fee is deducted.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
Maybe not with the Alpha alone; however:

- Getting the Very Rare Alpha with just influence takes 400 million (plus shards, but I'm talking only influence costs here). Multiply that by 10 slots, and that's 4 billion influence per character.
And exactly why do you think a significant number of people are going to go spend real money to get the inf to craft a notice instead of just hopping on the weekly task force, or join in on the new incarnate trail. If crafting were the only way to get a NotW, I might agree, but it's not.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow State View Post
And exactly why do you think a significant number of people are going to go spend real money to get the inf to craft a notice instead of just hopping on the weekly task force, or join in on the new incarnate trail. If crafting were the only way to get a NotW, I might agree, but it's not.
You can only get one Notice of the Well per week from the WTF. Once all the slots are in place, a new level 50 character would need 40 to very-rare all their slots. 10 months is a long time to wait. Let's say someone just got their 10th Notice, but in playing so, they have enough shards for 10 Notice conversions, but not the billion influence required. They save a lot of time by getting the billion influence quickly for $10 from an RMT, rather than paying for 10 weeks of playtime (three months at $15 each = $45).


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This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
You can only get one Notice of the Well per week from the WTF. Once all the slots are in place, a new level 50 character would need 40 to very-rare all their slots. 10 months is a long time to wait. Let's say someone just got their 10th Notice, but in playing so, they have enough shards for 10 Notice conversions, but not the billion influence required. They save a lot of time by getting the billion influence quickly for $10 from an RMT, rather than paying for 10 weeks of playtime (three months at $15 each = $45).
Given how little of an advantage a very rare gives over a rare, I can't see many people plopping down $10 for them, in fact were in not for the fact that I've already made 2 rares and the badge for crafting the very rares, I honestly don't think I'd bother with the very rares. Also every indication is that the other slots aren't as binary an unlock as alpha is, so a fresh 50 very well might earn all of the salvage he needs for one slot while working twords earning the next, and that's assuming that the earn rate of Notices don't go up come i20, or that later slots even use Notices. There's a lot of really big assumptions that need to be made to make RMTing for Very Rares seem reasonable enough that Paragon Studios should risk destroying the market to counter it with their own RMT instead of, you know, just making sure the NotW is sufficiently obtainable.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turgenev View Post
Make buying it a temp power. $15 for a single-use click power that you can use on yourself; or $15 for a one-time activation that you can use on someone else.

No market presence, keep it purely from donor to receiver.
The problem with that is that it's more abusable. If it's put in at all people will trade them for inf.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
- Not every character can slot a Gladiator 3% resistance, or a Panacea. But every single character can get the Incarnate abilities. There's not as much choice, either; if I can't afford Panacea I can slot the much cheaper Doctored Wounds, but when it comes to Incarnate slots, there's just one path.
I went back and read this more carefully and felt the need to point out that substituting Doctored Wounds for Panacea is no different then substituting a common, uncommon or rare Alphas for the the Very rare.


 

Posted

I think this is a very bad idea.
As the OP even notes, it seems a good way for RMT'rs to sneak cash around.
It also is a way for players to pay other players to do things for them.

Very bad idea.
I certainly don't see any reason that NCSoft would want to lose subscription time by allowing players to buy in-game salvage with real world money.
Why take the time to create End-Game content if players can just buy their way through it?

This smacks of Pokemon fever; symtoms include"Gotta Catch them all" (tm), "I have to have [whatever] now", and "I'm willing to pay as much real world dollars as it takes to be Uber Lee7".

It helps a rich person in the real world more than it does anyone else.
There are other games that you can play that allow this kind of activity. If "buying your way to the top" is what you think is fun, please play one of those other game.
I like CoH without the impact of real world dollars on the markets and in-game currency (which no longer has anything to do with your ethical values).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic View Post
I certainly don't see any reason that NCSoft would want to lose subscription time by allowing players to buy in-game salvage with real world money.
Why take the time to create End-Game content if players can just buy their way through it?
I agree that it's not really something we'd want but I think both of these examples are poor. First off it wouldn't allow people to buy their way though the end game content. It would (potentially) allow someone to get the 100million inf they'd need for a NOTW for real money but they'd still have to farm up the 88 shards required. Secondly how would it cost NCSoft subscription time? It would probably increase subscription time since people who could not otherwise afford to play would get other people to fund thier playing.


 

Posted

I think the idea has merit. I can see it being an issue, though, that you need to already have an active account to use it to add time.

On the other hand, some people make so much money that they'd use it exclusively as their method of getting game time, and their fervent inf generation could have the opposite effect of removing inf from the economy.


Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

 

Posted

Heard of an interesting story about this type of thing in another MMO. Someone had about $1000 worth of their MMO's version of 60 day time card salvage, but they were destroyed by another playing with them losing that particular salvage. While it is a decent way for an official RMT, there are numerous problems from someone accidentally forgetting a couple of 0s at the end of their trade or accidentally deleting it.


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