Opengl struggle
By
Addicted,
Posted on: 2011-01-30 19:47 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
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You might have had a point here aside from one little factor: Ultra Mode. Pretty much any add-in GPU for sale today can max the "dinosaur" settings of the game with no problem. |
Originally Posted by Addicted
In all the market there isn't a Single GPU that can max. this games settings on a 24" + monitor without fierce struggle. This is astonishing to me, since this is a "dinsosaur" of a game.
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Ultra Mode introduces a completely new rendering structure.
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| Why even list some of the settings if they really can't be utilized? |
Have you ever tried to design a user-interface that hides components that could have a hidden state to the end user?
Well, let me direct you to some people who have: http://www.kde.org/ http://www.xfce.org/
The fact is this: all of the settings in the game are exposed because it is the simplest way to handle the structure of presenting coherent and recognizable data to every player. When developers try to hide system components, options, or settings, based on detections of what the user has, such systems create issues on the back-ends of troubleshooting, bug filing, regression testing, and every other aspect of development.
Don't take my word for it. Go hop on the KDE and XFCE mailing lists and suggest those guys start hiding program options and settings based on whether or not a user has a certain level of hardware detection.
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| Perhaps it's the manufacturer, might I need an additional 3 Gtx 580's? |
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| Maybe they don't update this type of platform much anymore? |
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| Please help fight the struggle. PLease contact Nvidia or ATI for more efficient drivers or something or to get Paragon Studios out of their ______________________ <fill the blank> |
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| Don't accept 10-20 fps.. |
The fact is, even a RadeonHD 5770 can push Maximum Shadows, Maximum Reflections, and Ultra Water in 1920*1200 with ~4x anti-aliasing and maintain a playable frame-rate, providing it's coupled with a decent enough processor.
Some of the performance killers for City of Heroes are Ambient Occlusion and Bloom... both of which are questionable as to whether or not they actually improve graphical fidelity: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219534
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| I hear that new super stuff hero game glides performance wise and is visually stunning |
Again, you almost had a point here... except you didn't.
DC Universe Online is not in the same genre as City of Heroes. It is a completely different type of game that needs to be compared to quasi-MMO's like Phantasy Star Online or Borderlands. Trying to compare it to a full-blown MMO like City of Heroes tells me one thing. You haven't ever actually played DC Universe Online.
Anyways, something to keep in mind is that DC Universe Online is built atop the Unreal Engine, and there's already complaints being lodged that textures aren't as sharp as they should be, and that the game has a neon edge to models that just won't go away. In other words, it looks like a game that was built with the Unreal Engine.
Is DC Universe Online visually stunning? Oh hell no.
Is it graphically comparable to any other game?
Again, no. No other game has tried to do what SOE is doing with the Unreal Engine and using it in a contiguous and persistent map configuration... well aside from early Huxley demo's. For what it attempts to do DC Universe Online is impressive.
Ignoring for a moment the completely different genres of City Of Heroes and DC Universe Online, should DC Universe Online's highest rendering mode in Windows be compared to the highest rendering mode in City of Heroes?
Well, let me ask this: Would you say that Gears of War should be graphically compared to Super Mario Galaxy? Would you say that Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess should be compared to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2?
I hope that answer would be: NO
Why didn't you answer my questions?
And yes, DC graphics are quite stunning.. Even more stunning than you and your selflessness, Precious.
We should team up. I like you.
Don't be a mindless farm toon, we may need you on a non-soft SF someday. =)
I guarrentee your system could max out CoH Pre-Ultra mode. Post Ultra mode, if you have a system that can run the added goodies without impacting your performance, then WOO turn it up.
Yes CoH seems very heavy on system resources and im still not sure where it comes from.
However don't blame Open Gl. If anything OpenGL is more efficent (or at least it used to be) than DirectX. I quite like the openGL standard and find it interesting that the mobile market is picking it up. Perhaps that comes down to efficency again, perhaps you have more info on that Je Saist.
Still my modest system runs CoH in ultra mode with all the goodies turned on but only water and shadows completely maxxed out. It looks great and honestly, mid battle, I wouldn't notice the difference between Occlusion Strength Medium and Occlusion Strength Strong with Color Bleeding.
That said. my ultimate system test for rigs im either building or repairing, is to throw CoH at it for a couple of hours, if it comes out on top, its passed my test. 
Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
News flash! The game only runs Ultra mode if you use obsolete drivers on the ATi side, and nVidia has made it clear openGL support isn't where they want their resources right now.
10-20 FPS is unacceptable on a modern card in this kind of game. Ultra mode was nailpolish on a pig. This game is outrageously inefficiently written, even with the ultra update.
when a modern quad core processor with a top of the line video card can't run any ultra settings at ALL without consistent frame drops, SOMETHING IS BROKEN.
You can't tell me it isn't the game, either. I had a brief period after getting my new card and before thei19 update dropped that it ran perfectly with ALL settings maxed. Then i19 dropped and everything went to hell.
So where is the fault? The game designers that seem to have no interest in fixing a serious, game killing bug... or the driver makers that have no choice but to make 15 year old code obsolete because the OGL standard has changed?
Oh I agree, the games a hog, but I dont believe its because of OpenGL
Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
The game used to be badly written, but they've salvaged a LOT of performance in I17. Heck, Praetoria looks and performs like a modern game. It's nowhere near as bad as people say.
The real problem is when a badly optimized zone tanks the framerate, like south Cap au Diable. That'll be fixed when Paragon get around to updating the old content.
If you use a lower setting on Ambient Occlusion, you can get a lot of your framerate back. Screen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO) is demanding on any engine, and CoH has some esoteric options in the AO that even Crysis doesn't have. It's what makes a game like Battleforge into such a hog. They were planning for the future with this setting.
Catalyst 10.11 runs perfectly fine on CoH. The fact that newer drivers are broken is sadly entirely AMD's fault. Their enforced monthly driver schedule results in the odd driver screwing up and being released prematurely, WHQL or not.
Mephisto, I run a 2.66GHz Core i7 along with a Radeon 5850. This is not an unreasonable specification, and it mashes CoH quite well. If you're having problems, we can help you to fix things.
Necrobond - 50 BS/Inv Scrapper made in I1
Rickar - 50 Bots/FF Mastermind
Anti-Muon - 42 Warshade
Ivory Sicarius - 45 Crab Spider
Aber ja, nat�rlich Hans nass ist, er steht unter einem Wasserfall.
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My guess would be that "mashes CoH quite well" does not mean anywhere near what I would consider "mashes."|
Originally Posted by Necrotron
Mephisto, I run a 2.66GHz Core i7 along with a Radeon 5850. This is not an unreasonable specification, and it mashes CoH quite well. If you're having problems, we can help you to fix things.
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But I'll tell you what. In the interest of seeing where this goes, tell me your settings. If you start with "disable Catalyst AI" I'll have to remind you that Catalyst AI cannot be disabled on the 6970 without hacking a profile with a text editor.
I run at everything turned off. All ultra sliders to zero. World detail at 50%. I get 60fps in the worst part of Cap. Do I need 60fps to enjoy the game? No. I need it not to crash, and not to drop into the teens just because I put my shadow slider up one notch. Ambient occlusion? Hate that crap, don't use it. My *only* requirement is AA and AF.
I agree this isn't an OpenGL issue. Its a game issue. If you can explain why I was able to hit 45-55FPS in the worst zones on the 10.11 drivers on i18, then can't play with anything turned on without crashing as soon as the i19 update happened, I'm all ears.
I will say, good news. Someone, even if they never ever speak to us anymore about this stuff, was listening. The version on test - just ran it, and I get in the 30s with everything turned on in south Cap. Much better than teens. Didn't try Talos or other zones, but if the game pushes frames for Cap and GV, everything else will be fine.
As to helping me more, please feel free to look in the technical section:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=246458
I am far from the only person having these issues. There are multiple threads about problems with ATi and drivers newer than 10.9.
i5 750-4.0ghz
8gb ddr3 2000mhz
SSD Corsair
EVGA GTX 580 stock
24 inch Samsung
I spent a lot of money on ths pc to play a game that I've adored since 2004.
SHould I RMA all my components and get a walmart email machine type pc?
Don't be a mindless farm toon, we may need you on a non-soft SF someday. =)
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According to game developers John Carmack, and Gabe Newell, there is no performance difference between OpenGL and DirectX as of DX11 / OpenGL 4.1. |
Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
However don't blame Open Gl. If anything OpenGL is more efficent (or at least it used to be) than DirectX. I quite like the openGL standard and find it interesting that the mobile market is picking it up. Perhaps that comes down to efficency again, perhaps you have more info on that Je Saist.
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Part of this is because the specifications of which each API are more clearly defined, and there is less room, or need, for proprietary extensions. Part of this is down to maturity. Microsoft hasn't been sitting still on graphics technology and they made up performance ground while OpenGL languished under SGI. Khronos deserves credit for catching OpenGL back up with DirectX.
As to why OpenGL is surging... the real fact is market percentages. Microsoft's market-share outside of OEM computers is... zero. Outside of Microsoft Windows and Office Microsoft has never posted a profit for any other project. The Home and Entertainment Division, responsible for the Xbox branding, only appears to be profitable as Microsoft wrote off several billion as non-recoverable operating losses.
The high-growth technology markets these days are in smart-phones, tablets, and low-power laptops... where architectures like MIPS and ARM reside... markets that are dominated by *nix-type operating systems such as BSD_Mach / IOS and Linux / Android. For the average publisher, OpenGL is the only way they can target these high-growth platforms.
Now back to the Original Poster
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| News flash! The game only runs Ultra mode if you use obsolete drivers on the ATi side |
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| and nVidia has made it clear openGL support isn't where they want their resources right now. |
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| 10-20 FPS is unacceptable on a modern card in this kind of game. Ultra mode was nailpolish on a pig. This game is outrageously inefficiently written, even with the ultra update. |
Also, again, some operations such as Ambient Occlusion use a lot of performance but may or may not have a visual benefit. Sometimes graphics features are like that.
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| when a modern quad core processor with a top of the line video card can't run any ultra settings at ALL without consistent frame drops, SOMETHING IS BROKEN. |
Okay, I really don't have time to finish this. Class is going back into session, and I have to learn more about pastry sanitation.
Cookies soon!
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For some people. The 11.1a drivers actually made mine worse. the 10.11 are the most stable I can use.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Hmm? Okay, ignoring the 11.1 alpha, the 11.1a hotfix seems to have fixed these issues.
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I'm very happy at the moment. Right before the servers went down I enabled ambient occlusion in the nvidia control panel. (It's disabled by default) I"ll tell ya ! It made a distinct impression on me immediately in game. Firm FPS, around 40-50 in Imperial City. I did even notice some nice lighting effects. Even with the occasional dip in FPS my eyes couldn't "feel" it. Was a really nice experience.
I'll get on again tomorrow and play in my usual fashion/s to see if I'm getting closer to my perfect settings in game and out.
1900x1024 (windowed mode) Ultra Mode
i5, gtx 580, win7 <<, reference for anyones interest and comparison
Don't be a mindless farm toon, we may need you on a non-soft SF someday. =)
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Issue 19.5 has somehow "fixed" my "computer problem" - or at least made the game playable. Instead of 10-20 FPS in the harder areas (Cap, GV), I had a consistent 25-30 with everything except world detail and AO maxed. World detail is set to 100%. I just played for two hours without a crash, as well.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
That sounds like a problem with your computer, not with the game. We'll be glad to troubleshoot those issues. Okay, I really don't have time to finish this. Class is going back into session, and I have to learn more about pastry sanitation. Cookies soon! |
Those devs rock for fixing my computer issues. The ones I only ever got in this game, right after i19 was released... That ignored complete game reinstalls and a fresh copy of Windows.
Not be a jerk, but problem with my computer? Really? Would you like me to post my Hijack and CoHhelper? I've been running on a (relatively) pristine copy of Windows on this machine since I got my new card right before i19, and I even did a scratch reload of Windows just a few days ago. Yet an update to the broken game seems to have fixed it. Troubleshoot that for me.
Well if some files on your PC were corrupted then the update will have replaced then. You could have bad sectors on your disc and the old files used those but the new install doesn't.
Other updates may have been applied in the interim
So many possibilities but given most people get far higher framerates than you were even on lower spec PCs - I'd tend to agree that the problem was most likely on your PC
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and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
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Even with so many threads talking about ATi issues with drivers newer than 10.9. It is *my* PC when there are half a dozen threads on the exact same issues?|
Originally Posted by Gaia
Well if some files on your PC were corrupted then the update will have replaced then. You could have bad sectors on your disc and the old files used those but the new install doesn't.
Other updates may have been applied in the interim So many possibilities but given most people get far higher framerates than you were even on lower spec PCs - I'd tend to agree that the problem was most likely on your PC |
The interim? I had the issue at 4AM, no updates were installed for the machine - I don't let update install without my knowledge. I wait for the patch, and things suddenly work...
I've been professionally troubleshooting PCs for almost two decades. It is NOT the PC. If it was a corrupt game file, it would have been fixed by the half dozen times I have completely reloaded the game from scratch. If it was a corrupt any other file, it would have been fixed by one of the two Windows reloads that have been done on this machine since I have gotten the new card. If it was bad sectors on the disk, it would have shown up on one of the diagnostics I have run trying to figure this out. (not to mention, I have TWO hard drives in here, and the drives get reformatted and alternated on OS installs)
Yet somehow, none of that fixed it. Only a new update from the game devs fixed it. Also, you guys that suddenly are popping up with ideas about how my computer was messed up... where have you been for the past month? Why is it no one is helping those of us with issues until the issue mysteriously resolves itself after a game update? Since the i19 update, the only advice that has worked consistently for anyone here has been to roll back to the 10.9 drivers. Something that worked for anyone on an older card, that only a couple of us just cannot do.
Frankly, I think a lot of this issue is the fact that the 6xxx series cards are brand new. Things with these cards are different. We can't even turn off Catalyst AI - something that is known to cause performance issues in this game.
It is far more likely that something was tweaked in the newest update, than for a month of heavy troubleshooting, including reformat\reload of OS twice, and half a dozen reinstalls of the game from scratch to have suddenly had some background issue resolve itself literally in the few hours between last play of the game and the new update.
I know I sound like I am being an *** about this, but really, you guys are popping up after a frustration level was reached that maybe we should all just let this one go. I mean, we have people that have gone back and forth with support about this issue, as well. I'm trying not to be snippy, but damn. After all this time, folks want to pop up and blame the people that have been fighting this for weeks now...
In all the market there isn't a Single GPU that can max. this games settings on a 24" + monitor without fierce struggle. This is astonishing to me, since this is a "dinsosaur" of a game.
Why even list some of the settings if they really can't be utilized? Perhaps it's the manufacturer, might I need an additional 3 Gtx 580's? Maybe they don't update this type of platform much anymore?
Please help fight the struggle. PLease contact Nvidia or ATI for more efficient drivers or something or to get Paragon Studios out of their ______________________ <fill the blank>
Don't accept 10-20 fps.. I hear that new super stuff hero game glides performace wise and is visually stunning
Don't be a mindless farm toon, we may need you on a non-soft SF someday. =)