Sheesh.
First, how about we all agree on what we're talking about? My response was to a statement comparing Flash Arrow to defensive toggles in terms of effectiveness. When I hear the phrase "defensive toggles" I do NOT immediately think of power pools or toggles that have incidental defense in addition to their main function, such as Steamy Mist. I think of things like tanker/scrapper/brute/stalker toggles that provide defense . If the initial statement actually meant power pools and powers that have some defense but whose main purpose is something else, then I honestly don't understand what relevance that comparison is supposed to have.
Second, we do all understand that it is possible to discuss Trick Arrow's strengths and weaknesses without hyperbolic misquoting, right? I'm rather tired of being attributed with saying TA (or components thereof) is "useless" or "sucks" or whatever. I never have.
As for Flash Arrow, it does have some perks and complements other to-hit debuffs and defense buffs. Do those perks compensate for such low debuff values on a defender primary power in situations where those perks don't matter (such as the unresistable tag when fighting non-AVs)? That's really up to the individual.
We now return you to your originally scheduled topic.
Quote:
What I'm saying is "The only time that this is any kind of advantage is during AV fights, and even then flash arrow is so weak that it's only a couple percentage points stronger than the debuffs found in other sets." In other words, the only situation in which flash arrow is better than other debuffs (and only marginally so) is when those other debuffs are reduced in effectiveness by 85%.
|
Originally Posted by David_Yanakov
So, you're saying that flash arrow still wins in this scenario despite being 'weak'?
|
Quote:
Why would we be comparing it to Brute or Scrapper shields? No one here is trying to be a scrapper . If anything, steamy mist and shadow fall are what it should be compared to as it's basically the trick arrow version of it. Main difference being that it's a click rather than a toggle and your team benefits without having to stand beside you.|
Originally Posted by Happy_Thoughts
Sheesh.
First, how about we all agree on what we're talking about? My response was to a statement comparing Flash Arrow to defensive toggles in terms of effectiveness. When I hear the phrase "defensive toggles" I do NOT immediately think of power pools or toggles that have incidental defense in addition to their main function, such as Steamy Mist. I think of things like tanker/scrapper/brute/stalker toggles that provide defense . If the initial statement actually meant power pools and powers that have some defense but whose main purpose is something else, then I honestly don't understand what relevance that comparison is supposed to have. Second, we do all understand that it is possible to discuss Trick Arrow's strengths and weaknesses without hyperbolic misquoting, right? I'm rather tired of being attributed with saying TA (or components thereof) is "useless" or "sucks" or whatever. I never have. As for Flash Arrow, it does have some perks and complements other to-hit debuffs and defense buffs. Do those perks compensate for such low debuff values on a defender primary power in situations where those perks don't matter (such as the unresistable tag when fighting non-AVs)? That's really up to the individual. We now return you to your originally scheduled topic. |
What would you say to a dark/ who skips shadow fall or a storm/ who skipped steamy mist?
"We" weren't comparing it to melee shields; you were just vague about what you meant by "defensive toggle." Since saying "...a [6¼% to-hit debuff click power] seems to give me nearly as much defense as a [5% defense toggle] would" isn't exactly a revelation, it didn't occur to me that that's what you could have meant since you seemed so excited about it.
As far as the "main difference" between Flash Arrow and Shadowfall/Steamy Mist, maybe you should look at the resists those provide to you and your nearby (if 40 feet can be described as such) friends. Heck, slot it up and you're radiating about 30% resist to a few damage types that a lot of people can't get very high on their own. Where did that fit in to your comparison? We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether the 5-7½% defense they provide is the major benefit you get from them.
Oh, and if someone wants to skip Steamy Mist or Shadowfall, why should I say anything at all unless they ask for advice? It's not my character, they can build however they want. Was there a point to that question other than to further derail this thread?
Quote:
Look at it this way instead:|
Originally Posted by David_Yanakov
So, you're saying that flash arrow still wins in this scenario despite being 'weak'?
And to be fair to the trappers, In the course of running a Thugs/Traps to 50 I can count the number of times my FF generator got blown up on one hand. Not counting the occasional wipe situation. |
Slotted Radiation Infection against non-AVs: -~45% to-hit
Slotted Fearsome Stare against non-AVs: -~29% to-hit
Slotted Flash Arrow against non-AVs: -~9% to-hit
Quote:
Since Flash Arrow is a AoE -To-Hit debuff the kind of defense *toggles* that are most like it in effect are AoE defensive toggles. I at least thought it was a logical comparison.|
Originally Posted by Happy_Thoughts
"We" weren't comparing it to melee shields; you were just vague about what you meant by "defensive toggle." Since saying "...a [6¼% to-hit debuff click power] seems to give me nearly as much defense as a [5% defense toggle] would" isn't exactly a revelation, it didn't occur to me that that's what you could have meant since you seemed so excited about it.
|
As for the other things that Shadow Fall/Steamy Mist do I would certainly hope it does more given that over the sixty second period flash arrows debuff lasts those two powers use almost four times the endurance.(Radiation Infection also for that matter.) Given what it does and *how* it does it I think Flash Arrow is a pretty good power. I view a targeted AoE debuff as being more flexible then a PBAoE. Especially when it has a fairly fast recharge so you can spread the effect around reasonably quickly.
Quote:
This is such a good point. Dispersion Bubble is complete junk compared to FFG, because not only does it have a lower defense bonus, but it also costs almost ten times more end!|
Originally Posted by Arondell
As for the other things that Shadow Fall/Steamy Mist do I would certainly hope it does more given that over the sixty second period flash arrows debuff lasts those two powers use almost four times the endurance.(Radiation Infection also for that matter.)
|
Hmm, on second thought, perhaps duration/end is not the best metric for comparing clicks to toggles after all. (Especially when we're actually talking about debuffs that only last as long as the mob is alive.)
Edit: I do agree with Arondell and David_Yanakov that it's not crazy to compare Flash Arrow to defender defense buffs (and in the context, I don't think it's too hard to read the comparison charitably and come to the reading that Arondell did), but I also think that it doesn't compare very favorably. The toggles that lose to it on defense also give stealth and res, and of course FFG and Dispersion Bubble stomp all over it. (In many cases (though not all), even Dark Blast cones are better.) This doesn't mean it's worthless, or that TA defenders shouldn't take it. It doesn't mean that David_Yanakov was wrong when he said, "flash arrow slotted for to hit debuff offers rather a lot to my survivability." But whether a TA defender should take FA--whether it substantially helps the TA defender survive--is independent of how it compares to defense buffs that other defenders get.
By design, most to-hit debuffs are significantly stronger than defense buffs for a couple reasons. The first one is that the debuffs are weakened against higher level foes, and the other is that debuffs require proactive application. The second one is the big one. Under ideal circumstances debuffs are usually best, but when confronted with unexpected ambushes or enemies attacking from all directions, buffs will be superior.
Among debuffs themselves, ease of use is usually a big factor in the debuff strength. Hurricane is one of the most powerful debuffs in the game because it's difficult to keep the debuff on enemies. Meanwhile, fearsome stare is pretty simple in its application, but still has a pretty significant debuff. Flash arrow is undoubtedly one of the easiest debuffs to use and keep on enemies. It pays for this advantage by being 1/3 as strong as fearsome stare.
Quite frankly the debuff in Flash Arrow IS a little smaller than what perhaps would be wanted. If you start adding this into the defense equation though it makes a fair difference. IE X person has an average of 40% chance to be hit and now they have a 30% chance to be hit. You've cut their damage by 1/4. It also only really requires 2 slot for this, so it's efficient. Not being a toggle once applied it's there unless you die and it costs relatively little endurance.
That being said in practice the power, though useful, is a little underwhelming. Without changing the usage or the slotting any change to it would be multiplied by the rest of the set as TA really seems to be above average in defender sets USED RIGHT and slotted for effect. Additional to hit seems almost too much as we bring good and varied mitigation of other types. (Note: When i say above average set I keep in mind that TA is above all else versatile. Good in every situation, not best at any.)
Personally I'd love to see a minor confuse added that would only affect minions for a short time and shorten the recharge to 10 seconds (10s duration possibly self stackable to affect lt's). Would keep it "aggro free", cut some of the alpha on teams, and be a great boon to the solo TA, but that's prolly not gonna happen.
"Flash arrow's debuff is unresistable and will always debuff the amount it says"- Unresistable means that it ignores to-hit debuff resistance, which all enemies ranked above minion have in small (5-10%) amounts. It is still affected by level differences, just like all powers except for oddities like the achilles heel proc. The only time that this is any kind of advantage is during AV fights, and even then flash arrow is so weak that it's only a couple percentage points stronger than the debuffs found in other sets.
slotted flash arrow against an even level AV- 9.75%
slotted radiation infection against an even level AV- 7.31%
And to be fair to the trappers, In the course of running a Thugs/Traps to 50 I can count the number of times my FF generator got blown up on one hand. Not counting the occasional wipe situation.