Enhancement Suggestion: Increase KD Frequency
By
Dechs Kaison,
Posted on: 2011-01-19 18:39 in Suggestions and Ideas
While I agree that increased chance is better (for both KD and KB: the only thing worse than AoE KB is AoE KB on only half of the spawn), I'm not certain that the powers system is even capable of doing this.
I may be wrong and it is capable. But it's absolutely not possible with existing powers. And I somehow doubt the devs would want to make some KD powers chance-enhanceable and other not. It would only confuse matters.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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It is possible, and with existing enhancements even, just not the normal ones.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
While I agree that increased chance is better (for both KD and KB: the only thing worse than AoE KB is AoE KB on only half of the spawn), I'm not certain that the powers system is even capable of doing this.
I may be wrong and it is capable. But it's absolutely not possible with existing powers. And I somehow doubt the devs would want to make some KD powers chance-enhanceable and other not. It would only confuse matters. |
Punch has a 30% chance to knock-down. The Kinetic Combat proc has a 20% chance to knock-down. If you slot Punch with the Kinetic Combat proc, there's a 6% chance they both fire, a 14% chance that just Kinetic Combat fires, and a 24% chance that the Punch knock-down fires. So total, you get 44% chance of knock-down.
So, if they made enhancements that could only be slotted in Knock-back powers and acted as Procs, we would have "Increase chance of knock-down"
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Not exactly. Due to the way magnitude will stack, there's a 6% chance that it does knockBACK, and only a 38% chance to do knock down. Minor technicality, but some people would see the minor chance at knock back as more of a detriment than bringing in an extra 14% chance for knock down.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
It is possible, and with existing enhancements even, just not the normal ones.
Punch has a 30% chance to knock-down. The Kinetic Combat proc has a 20% chance to knock-down. If you slot Punch with the Kinetic Combat proc, there's a 6% chance they both fire, a 14% chance that just Kinetic Combat fires, and a 24% chance that the Punch knock-down fires. So total, you get 44% chance of knock-down. So, if they made enhancements that could only be slotted in Knock-back powers and acted as Procs, we would have "Increase chance of knock-down" |
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That depends upon if the sum of the two magnitudes of knockback is greater than one or not. I'm assuming that knock-back magnitude can be made arbitrarily small while still being non-zero.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Not exactly. Due to the way magnitude will stack, there's a 6% chance that it does knockBACK, and only a 38% chance to do knock down. Minor technicality, but some people would see the minor chance at knock back as more of a detriment than bringing in an extra 14% chance for knock down.
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But looking at the numbers for the example I provided I see you're right. They both provide .67 magnitude knock-back.
So, maybe they add a new "Knock-back chance" enhancement. It's only slottable in powers that already provide knockback.
Each one slotted provides a 30% chance of .3 magnitude Knock-back.
One slotted in Punch would provide 9% chance of .97 mag knock-back, 21% chance of .67 mag knock-back, and 21% chance of .3 mag knock-back, for a total of 51% chance of Knockdown.
Two slotted in Punch would provide 2.7% chance of 1.27 mag knock-back, 12.6% chance of .97 mag knock-back, 12.6% chance of .6 mag knock-back, 29.4% chance of .3 mag knock-back, and 14.7% chance of .67 mag knock-back. This brings the total to 2.7% chance of knock-back, and 69.3% chance of knock-down.
Aside from the concerns of using the existing proc, I've seen members here adamantly refuse to touch the IO system. A new enhancement, supported by TO's/DO's/SO's/IO's is what I'd most like to see. Not just for the sake of including everybody, but because investing in procs is tedious and relies on opportunity, a thick wallet, or bargaining skills.
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IIRC the maximum magnitude for a knockdown is about .75, so the chance for knockback would be higher than that. I'd rather not have that chance that something goes wrong. After all, increasing your stun's magnitude doesn't give it a chance to not work the way you intended.|
So, maybe they add a new "Knock-back chance" enhancement. It's only slottable in powers that already provide knockback. Each one slotted provides a 30% chance of .3 magnitude Knock-back. One slotted in Punch would provide 9% chance of .97 mag knock-back, 21% chance of .67 mag knock-back, and 21% chance of .3 mag knock-back, for a total of 51% chance of Knockdown. Two slotted in Punch would provide 2.7% chance of 1.27 mag knock-back, 12.6% chance of .97 mag knock-back, 12.6% chance of .6 mag knock-back, 29.4% chance of .3 mag knock-back, and 14.7% chance of .67 mag knock-back. This brings the total to 2.7% chance of knock-back, and 69.3% chance of knock-down. |
And for powers like Repulsing Torrent, knockdown is almost as productive as not knocking the enemy at all. The main problem with that and similar powers is their randomness, which tends to separate enemies more than is productive. Adding knockdown wouldn't help it much.
I could see the simplest solution being a variation of your idea, proc that (at SO level) has a 30% chance to inflict a .001 knockdown. Is there a minimum magnitude at which knockdowns happen at all, or is .67 an arbitrary number?
I had assumed, apparently erroneously, that it switched from knockdown to knockback at magnitude 1. That would have provided a nice stereoscopic projection, wherein anything on the lower hemisphere mapped to knockdown and anything in the upper mapped to knockback. I suppose you can still do it, but you wouldn't be using the unit sphere anymore. I mean, really. If 1 isn't the boundary, why not just rescale and make .75 into 1?
Ice Patch and Oil Slick both do mag .5 Knockback, so .67 is not minium. I couldn't find anything lower than that though.
I'm pretty sure that if the final knockback done to an enemy is greater than zero but less than .75, it's knockdown, so you could have any value greater than zero do knockdown. However, if all enemies have knock-back protection magnitude .4 or greater, than the minimum value to do knock-back would be greater than .4.
So the question becomes, do enemies have inherent knockback protection?
If Ice Patch will knock down a +4 enemy, we know that .24 mag knockback works. If it knocks down a +5 enemy, then .15 mag knockback works. If +6, then .075 mag knockback works. Just pick enemies that aren't weak to knockback to test this.
My level 32 Invulnerability/Ice tank can keep two level 38 5th Column (A Nightwolf and a Vampyre Parasite) floundering, so .075 mag knockback should work fine to knock enemies down.
It's not the .001, but I can't really test that.
While playing my Kinetic Melee tank I thought of something. KD is a useful tool (and KB is if used well), but unlike other sets where you can increase the duration of controls (and therefore their effectiveness) you can only increase the magnitude of KB. So slotting War Mace for Stun is productive, while slotting Super Strength for Knockback is awful.
I thought back to the numbers and realized many secondary KD effects rely on chance. So, in order to increase these powers' effectiveness as you would for other aspects, why not have an enhancement that increases the chance for KD? I wont pretend to know how well this would balance out, or what enhancement schedule would be needed, but I do know this:
1. It would be a reliable way to increase the effectiveness of many knockdown powers, something not possible without turning the KD into KB, which is nowhere near as useful for many melee ATs.
2. It would increase the reliability of attacks such as Buckshot, Pulse Rifle Burst, Repulsing Torrent, which at the moment have from a 40% to an 80% chance of knockback. The unpredictability of such attacks (especially those with an AoE) can create problems.
Any thoughts?