So, when does Shadow Maul start becoming an effective part of the attack chain?

So, I just plunked down my own 2 billion influence to stand in line to get the next Gladiator's Armor +3% defense IO for my WP/DM tank, after realizing that the last 3% to the softcap was costing me something like 6 slots that could otherwise be doing useful stuff, like damage and healing.

As an aside: yeah, I'm something like #186 in line. It may be faster for me simply to get Hero Merits for it - which I'm starting on now, as well. I'm also looking into getting int PvP to try and earn one the 'normal' way, but that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, I've been looking into optimizing my build with OTHER expensive IO's - after all: I've already spent THAT much. What's a copule of purples in comparison? And with that, I've been looking at the so-called "buzzsaw builds": fast, quick ST damage with procs. Currently, my build doesn't have any procs - it's a bit tight.

However, in looking at this, I realized that I've been using Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu as part of my attack chain the entire time - mainly because I've almost always been herding large groups into corners, where I COULD get 3-5 targets per application of the power. However, I also noticed that I spent a good amount of time adjusting myself to try to get the right position, and sometimes I'd simply mess it up and only get one anyway. But my build doesn't have Shadow Punch, and in reading up on it I thought that maybe I'd been missing out.

So, my question is this: on average, how many times do I have to hit multiple targets with Shadow Maul before it becomes a more effective part of an attack chain than the traditional DM chain? My thought is that the "normal" buzzsaw chain has the advantage that you don't need to hop around and try to get it lined up: just click/click/click/click. Shadow Maul can potentially hit multiple opponents, but you need to be moderately clever with it, and even if you are you can still waste a second or two repositioning, which certianly brings the DPS down if you aren't doing it during a lul between attacks.

My intuition tells me the answer is probably "if you can hit two targets consistently without having to waste time repositioning, you're above water, but wasting time repositioning is a HUGE hit on your DPS". I've found that I can do the setup fine if I'm on my own or in small groups, but in large-group situations it seems I rarely if ever get the chance to herd in such a fashion - it just "jump over the mob, taunt, and start throwing Gauntlets" - and Shadow Maul rarely lines up well in that scenario. So it seems like an odd circumstance, but the AoE doesn't seem to help all that much in large team situations. And because TF teams seem to be the wave of the future (or else soloing Merit missions), it seems that maybe I should be optimizing on my ST buzzsaw damage instead.

Personally, I respec'ed out of Shadow Maul for multiple reasons.

One, the rooted animation time. This was responsible for most of my deaths on the one Apex I've done on the tank.

Two, the IO sets. Swapping Shadow Maul for Shadow Punch (or is it Smite? I forget which one is which..) let me squeeze another Touch of Death in, for more defense.

Three, the effectiveness of the power itself (or lack thereof, depending on how you look at it). As you mentioned, if you hit at least 3 targets, it's great. Good damage. But, if you don't.. You're just wasting time, when you could be throwing out more attacks, for more damage. Personally, my attacks (after the start of the chain, which we won't go into here...) go something like Smite>Shadow Punch>Midnight Grasp>Smite>Siphon Life, rinse, repeat.


Personal opinion, with no basis in actual number-crunching, based entirely on ingame experience and "fun-factor", I'd opt for killing it, and taking something more productive. Your mileage may vary.

Oh wait, I know this one! Um, "never"?

I'm a big Shadow Maul fan - it's the best DPE in the set (with multiple targets), the only AoE in the set on a reasonably low cooldown, and with a quick sidestep (<1/2 a second move delay) I can almost always at least get 2 targets (if not 3+) when I'm in the middle of a group of baddies. Back before they fixed the minor glitch that let you run back while activating melee cones to massively buff the range, you could easily get 4-5, and it was epic. Now, it's merely quite good.

As to the actual question, "How many targets do you need to reliably hit for Shadow Maul to be a preferable attack instead of just plowing through with your default single-target chain," ...well, it depends. In terms of raw damage, hitting two targets with Shadow Maul is higher DPA (and more endurance efficient) than using any of your ST attacks. However, that ignores time spent waiting for the right angle, damage procs, and the survivability concerns of being locked into a 3 second animation during really intense battles. If you don't have a twitchy, click-based armor set (WP is gold here) then the survivability hit is minimal, although a DM/DA or DM/FA might have to seriously consider when to use it safely. You could proc out your ST attacks into a crazy buzzsaw chain, but you could also proc out Shadow Maul, and it gets to proc on every target it hits which further boosts its damage. If/when you can line up 3+ enemies, it's worth your while to do so even if it takes a second or two to line it up, and watching the flurry of orange numbers fly from 5 targets at once is just beautiful. The real test is how often you can line up multiple targets, and how fast you can set it up. That's a question of personal playstyle and skill, which will vary from user to user.

I'm debating whether to swap SM out for Electric Fences, as I don't tend to use SM all that much. With EF substituted into my current build it would offer up a free slot and the potential to purple out 2 powers as opposed to only 1 currently. It also gives me slightly improved endurance over all.

SM's DPA isn't that much lower than SP, and is certainly more than 50% of Smite, so if you can hit 2 or more mobs, it's pretty much always worth it to include SM. Now, if you're wasting time positioning to hit that 2nd mob, not so much, but hitting 2 w/SM should be very easy. Trying to line up for 3 or more might not be worth your time.

Considering how AoE poor DM is, I'd never give up on SM.

I hate that power. Its one sole reason I WILL NOT play Dark Melee until they get an alternate animation for it. I want the one that the Ghouls in Praetoria have.

As long as there are 3-5 mobs I can boof with it I'll keep it.

Thanks for the responses, folks! Sounds like my general intuition was correct - if I can get at least one other in the cone without jostling around much, it's a win. Three or more? Gravy. There are still some quick breaks in my attack chain (which I'm hoping to address once I can slot more LotG IO's), but for now it looks like those are more of an issue than my jumping around.

re: the the animation and rooting - eh, I've been using Sands of Mu as a low-level filler attack on pretty much every single toon since it came out, so the rooting issue doesn't bother me much. And while I personally think the animation looks like spooky TaeBo, I've learned to ignore it.