My only issue with toggle suppression: PFF and Defiance.
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-01-10 22:07 in Blasters
I'm just waiting for the rare or very rare incarnate slot that gives me mag 4 mez protection.
Even with defiance the way it is currently my IOd scrappers vastly out damage (and out survive) my IOd blasters and it all goes back being both mostly defenseless and extremely prone to mez.
My blasters are still the ONLY toons I have that survive mainly through inspiration use (IOd or not) and positional awareness (and there's no margin for error as a couple bad rolls with the RNG can be deadly) rather than just munching the occasional inps. Some of my IOd scrappers go multiple missions or even multiple task forces without ever touching the insp tray (aside from handing them to blasters on the team).
The reason that melee characters have mez protection is that they are designed to spend all their time in melee. Tanks have it, Scrappers have it, Brutes have it, Stalkers have it and they are all designed to spend most if not all their time in melee.
Dominators have it at least 1/2 the time and are designed to be in melee at least 1/2 of the time. VEATs get it full time and they are desigend to be in melee half the time (or less). HEATs get it in one form and they can toggle to that form while mezzed.
Blasters are designed to spend 1/2 their time in melee range. Most blaster secondary power sets (with the notable exception of devices) are mostly melee range attacks with a utility power or 2. They are the only AT in the game that are designed to spend 1/2 (or more) of their time in melee range and lack "real" mez protection.
Its a glaring discrepancy that I hope they repair somewhere in the incarnate system. If they don't I will be greatly disappointed.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Thanks, that basically didn't have anything at all to do with my post. This is not a thread about complaining about the basic function of the Blaster AT, this thread is about PFF and its interaction with Defiance.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Yes I've noticed it and I'm guessing its WAI.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
Thanks, that basically didn't have anything at all to do with my post. This is not a thread about complaining about the basic function of the Blaster AT, this thread is about PFF and its interaction with Defiance.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Its deeper than that, and it needs more than just mez protection for blasters. The melee survivability and the way mez works needs to be looked at and then the DPS ATs rebalanced. I just don't see that happening unless a certain other game goes belly up fast.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'm just waiting for the rare or very rare incarnate slot that gives me mag 4 mez protection.
Even with defiance the way it is currently my IOd scrappers vastly out damage (and out survive) my IOd blasters and it all goes back being both mostly defenseless and extremely prone to mez. My blasters are still the ONLY toons I have that survive mainly through inspiration use (IOd or not) and positional awareness (and there's no margin for error as a couple bad rolls with the RNG can be deadly) rather than just munching the occasional inps. Some of my IOd scrappers go multiple missions or even multiple task forces without ever touching the insp tray (aside from handing them to blasters on the team). The reason that melee characters have mez protection is that they are designed to spend all their time in melee. Tanks have it, Scrappers have it, Brutes have it, Stalkers have it and they are all designed to spend most if not all their time in melee. Dominators have it at least 1/2 the time and are designed to be in melee at least 1/2 of the time. VEATs get it full time and they are desigend to be in melee half the time (or less). HEATs get it in one form and they can toggle to that form while mezzed. Blasters are designed to spend 1/2 their time in melee range. Most blaster secondary power sets (with the notable exception of devices) are mostly melee range attacks with a utility power or 2. They are the only AT in the game that are designed to spend 1/2 (or more) of their time in melee range and lack "real" mez protection. Its a glaring discrepancy that I hope they repair somewhere in the incarnate system. If they don't I will be greatly disappointed. |
Blasters don't need mez protection.
Sorry for the thread jack but:
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Eh? What? Sorry? At worst, Energy Manipulation has 5/9 in the secondary being Melee attacks, and 1 that boosts range, encouraging you NOT to go into Melee. Electric has 4/9 as does Mental. That is 1/4 of your available powers at best, not 1/2 as you are suggesting.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Blasters are designed to spend 1/2 their time in melee range. Most blaster secondary power sets (with the notable exception of devices) are mostly melee range attacks with a utility power or 2. They are the only AT in the game that are designed to spend 1/2 (or more) of their time in melee range and lack "real" mez protection.
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I consider the Melee attacks mitigation for when foes close. Not intended as part of the attack chain.
Note: Just checked the Wiki and Fire is probably the most Melee heavy with 1 melee attack, 3 PBAOE attacks and 2 PBAOE Toggles. Still under half your powers.
Mez protection for Blasters is already bordering on being overpowered. Not having access to Defiance for when it fails seems like a reasonable trade-off.
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Blasters do not get mez protection because that is the flavor the devs want for the AT. Blasters with Mez protection would not be OPd in anyway. VEATS have plenty of ranged attacks and mez protection. Warshades do too. My Claws/Elec/Blaze scrapper makes a better ranger than my Fire/Fire/Flame blaster and only the scrapper gets the mez protection.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Mez protection for Blasters is already bordering on being overpowered. Not having access to Defiance for when it fails seems like a reasonable trade-off.
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Do not confuse this flavor choice as a balance issue. Blasters do not get defenses and mez protection because they are supposed to be team reliant and squishy. If you like characters like that, play a blaster. If you like to be able to run off on your own in a LGTF while playing at +2, choose an armored class.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Question: if you get mezzed, can you turn OFF the PFF, spam the attacks Definace lets you use when mezzed, and turn PFF back on when you're unmezzed?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Yeah, that's my thought. If you have PFF up, you can't attack anyway. So it doesn't matter if you are mezzed or not, you can't attack. So if you are mezzed, and can't use the attacks that get around mez, you still can't attack. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Question: if you get mezzed, can you turn OFF the PFF, spam the attacks Definace lets you use when mezzed, and turn PFF back on when you're unmezzed?
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It's like you're saying, "I don't want to get mezzed, so to that end I am not going to allow myself to attack. But if I AM mezzed, I want to be able to attack". Wouldn't it just be more useful to just be able to attack? Mezzed or not mezzed?
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No, you cannot turn off toggles while mezzed.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Question: if you get mezzed, can you turn OFF the PFF, spam the attacks Definace lets you use when mezzed, and turn PFF back on when you're unmezzed?
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I don't believe that using the PFF should mean that if a mez gets through Defiance won't work.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Yeah, that's my thought. If you have PFF up, you can't attack anyway. So it doesn't matter if you are mezzed or not, you can't attack. So if you are mezzed, and can't use the attacks that get around mez, you still can't attack.
It's like you're saying, "I don't want to get mezzed, so to that end I am not going to allow myself to attack. But if I AM mezzed, I want to be able to attack". Wouldn't it just be more useful to just be able to attack? Mezzed or not mezzed? |
It seems to me counter to the design of Defiance.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I don't agree.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Mez protection for Blasters is already bordering on being overpowered. Not having access to Defiance for when it fails seems like a reasonable trade-off.
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Defiance is there PRECISELY for when your lack of mez protection fails you. You're saying I should be Doubly punished because I tried to use the PFF.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Actually, your whole argument would make sense if you simply say that you feel the Only Effects Self should be suppressed along with the Defense. |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
I don't believe that using the PFF should mean that if a mez gets through Defiance won't work.
It seems to me counter to the design of Defiance. |
It really has nothing to do with Defiance or mez. You have PFF up, you can't attack. Defiance isn't failing to operate, you are counteracting it by having PFF up. That's a penalty you chose to accept by using the power.
Now, not being able to turn off PFF, that could be another issue as well.
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That WAS one of the possibilities I suggested in my OP.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Actually, your whole argument would make sense if you simply say that you feel the Only Effects Self should be suppressed along with the Defense.
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It was? Oh, well, okay after the suggestion to have it detoggle. |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
That WAS one of the possibilities I suggested in my OP.
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I'm not saying that's not a good idea. In fact, if I were going to do something about PFF, I would make it suppress WHEN YOU ATTACK, and then remove the OES altogether.
OTOH, whether that would make Blasters far too overpowered, not to mention Masterminds, is something I would rather not get into.
It's because PFF isn't designed to be used in that way. Specifically:
Defender - Lacks Defiance, gets mez protection from Dispersion Bubble.
Controller - Lacks Defiance, gets mez protection from Dispersion Bubble.
Master Mind - Lacks Defiance, gets mez protection from Dispersion Bubble.
Dominator - Lacks Defiance, gets mez protection from Domination.
Blaster - Gets Defiance, gets hosed on mez protection.
PFF was never designed for the blaster and New Defiance. I doubt they will be changing it.
@ StratoNexus
Yes I know it's a design flavor and it's still a bitter one. I totally agree that the blaster should remain unarmored gaining only a relatively small amount of mitigation late in their development, but the lack of mez protection for an AT that can pull aggro off of the characters designed to handle it is still in my opinion a design flaw.
It's the only AT that still lives and dies by the content of it's insp tray. That is still the greatest indicator to me that they are still not living up to their design potential.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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PFF was also not designed for toggle suppression, a change, and here we are.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
PFF was never designed for the blaster and New Defiance. I doubt they will be changing it.
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Really? Hrm. I wonder...can you turn Walk on while mezzed?
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
No, you cannot turn off toggles while mezzed.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Well, apart from dominators against PToD EBs, anyway (yes, that issue still annoys me).
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
...It's the only AT that still lives and dies by the content of it's insp tray.
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@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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There are a few Perma Doms that can stack enough mez to keep a PToD Perma mezzed. Especially those that have taken a secondary that includes power boost.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Well, apart from dominators against PToD EBs, anyway (yes, that issue still annoys me).
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Yeah, but that's hardly the majority of doms. There's also a few blasters that have enough mitigation to not live and die by their insp tray. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
There are a few Perma Doms that can stack enough mez to keep a PToD Perma mezzed. Especially those that have taken a secondary that includes power boost.
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Besides, aren't things supposed to be balanced for SOs?
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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True but it isn't ANY blasters (or any controllers for that matter). I'm not so sure that balanced for SOs is actually true any more especially with the new power sets.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Yeah, but that's hardly the majority of doms. There's also a few blasters that have enough mitigation to not live and die by their insp tray.
Besides, aren't things supposed to be balanced for SOs? |
Be that as it may I'll be very disappointed if the incarnate system doesn't provide a way for a blaster to get mez protection. After all how many of the incarnates that are all ready in the game get mezzed if they get breathed on or die in the alpha strike?
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
It's not about game balance, mez protection for blasters just goes against dev design.
While low level blasters can probably deal with the common purse-snatcher, high level blasters are designed as valiant henchmen in distress for the real heroes in the game (basically, every other AT) to protect and avenge. It's really WAI, and it makes sense that if there are epic ATs in the game, there has to be at least a sidekick AT as well.
Now, don't get me wrong, Jubilee's pretty flashy in her own right, but she should learn to pick her fights. After all, she's no Wolverine.
If you don't believe me just go on youtube and watch that CoH movie where the Freedom Phalanx battles Lord Recluse and his cronies. Notice that Synapse (the blaster) faceplants before the fight even begins
Has anyone else noticed this?
Defensive toggles were made to suppress when mezzed rather than detoggling. As a result, if you are using Personal Force Field to mitigate mezzes and one happens to get through the shield stays up (but is suppressed), leaving you with no defense And no way to fight back because you remain Only Effecting Self. Defiance can't work.
Now I am not necessarily saying this should be changed. In some ways it is a benefit because now you can eat a Break Free and the shield immediately becomes effective again rather than having to wait for it to recharge and put it back up. However, it ends up making me More reliant on Break Frees than I otherwise might be, which is frustrating since the changes to Defiance (and me Taking PFF) were essentially intended to make me less dependent on Break Frees.
So while I'm not going to insist that it be changed (and I'm not even certain how I would go about changing it. Should PFF detoggle when mezzed? Can the OES state be made to suppress as well? Could PFFd Blasters no longer be OES in PvE? I don't know...) it would certainly be nice if there were some way to make it a bit less frustrating. Since mez is pretty much the only weakness of the PFF (unless you think of OES as a weakness) it would be nice if I could at least shoot back when mezzed through it like I normally would be able to.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.