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Originally Posted by Syndace
Just... No. Super powered beings fight all the time for fun and for seriousness. I am not a vocal 13 year old wanting to gank my buddy for bragging rights but okay. People like PvP in this game because it is actually a lot of fun if you can get around the un-loved neglect the devs have given it. And just so you know, the more time and money you invest in your character, yes I think you should be able to do better than just an SO'd character. That's just the nature of things.
What does an FPS have to do with anything? The best MMO's out there have solid PvP IMO. I only ever played WoW because there was something to do with my character, battle it with other players. I don't think pvp is as much as an afterthought as you all think. We got arena introduced, pvp zones, pvp ios, various balance changes throughout issues, i13 overhaul, pvp io's, pvp badges, etc. You know, as much as I liked my overpowered pre-i13 character builds... pre i13 was pretty unbalanced and "broken" in a few regards. The new system isn't bad, it just needs some tweaks. I care about PvP and I am pretty sure there are more than 38 people who do too. I see loads of different people in zones nightly. More people would care if the PvE population wasn't so sissy and afraid to die, and the devs tweaked the system in place and added better incintives. I.E. Trading reputation in for IO's or something. I don't know what all this is, but yes this is the scrapper forum. I think we are all aware of that. I'm pretty sure I asked a scrapper question too. I can't tell if you are trying to mock me or what is going on here. |
You asked a question that directly involves scrappers, so it absolutely belongs in this forum, imo. If a mod disagrees, obviously they have the authority to close or move the thread, not some random player who isn't interested in discussing scrappers in pvp, yet takes the time to post about it, so just ignore them, lol.
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Say -- are you working your way through this thread backwards or something? You already quoted me, the "random player in question", from when I addressed THAT post! |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
You asked a question that directly involves scrappers, so it absolutely belongs in this forum, imo. If a mod disagrees, obviously they have the authority to close or move the thread, not some random player who isn't interested in discussing scrappers in pvp, yet takes the time to post about it, so just ignore them, lol.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I think its safe to say that those in the camp who feel they should be able to pvp on equal footing with their unslotted toon vs players who spent untold amounts of time IO'ing out their toons, are in the minority. Also, players who feel that way, are most likely players who are not IO'ing out thier toons, indicating that they probably are not heavily invested in this game, while the camp that is IO'ing out their toons are probably more likely heavily invested in this game.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
To cater to the crowd that is not heavily invested in the game at the expense of those who clearly are, is pure and utter stupidity, and that is exactly what the last pvp revamp was - pure and utter stupidity.
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"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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PvP was by NO means Castle's fault. He even stated that there were a lot of changes that he did NOT want, but they were forced changes by higher ups.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Exactly. I've disagreed with some of his pve decisions, but overall pve is fine, so clearly he did a fine job overall in regard to pve. But we're discussing pvp, and the changes he made to pvp were disasterous, imo, and I'm not even one of the guys who was in love with the old system.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
I remember that also. I only didn't mention it because I didn't feel like trying to dig up a quote. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yes, I did go back and read earlier posts, and that's relevant to my post supporting the OP in his belief that he posted in the right forum how?|
Originally Posted by Eldorado
Say -- are you working your way through this thread backwards or something? You already quoted me, the "random player in question", from when I addressed THAT post!
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| "Hey, guys, should we cater to the long-time players, who've spent countless hours, months, and sometimes years of playtime -- along with months and years of subscription fees that we've relied upon -- or should we cater to the brand-new player who might not even actually pay for a single month before getting bored and jumping to the next new shiny game?" |
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| Was it pure and utter stupidity, or pressure from the marketing department? At this point, I'm thinking maybe some of each. |
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Link? I find it very hard to believe that the powers guy who is in charge of setting and balancing powers didn't play a huge role in the pvp changes. If you don't have a link, from memory, what exactly was he opposed to?
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Originally Posted by Santorican
PvP was by NO means Castle's fault. He even stated that there were a lot of changes that he did NOT want, but they were forced changes by higher ups.
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Here is part of the quote that I am talking about I'm not sure if this is the exact quote that I remember, but I will keep searching.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Link? I find it very hard to believe that the powers guy who is in charge of setting and balancing powers didn't play a huge role in the pvp changes. If you don't have a link, from memory, what exactly was he opposed to?
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Originally Posted by Castle
You have the time line wrong. The prediction was based off the changes made, not before the changes were approved.
Only about 1/5th of the changes I asked for made it in; about half the changes that did take place were things I didn't fully back, but allowed myself to be talked into. Ultimately, that doesn't matter in the least: The current situation *is* my responsibility. For now, I bide my time and wait for the next pass. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
I was a fan of the old zone PvP. I really miss the old Sunday Night Sirens Call mass brawl that was some of the most fun I have had in CoH. So I will throw in my vote for the old PvP system in the chance some dev takes pity/gets interested in salvaging PvP.
Also, I appear to be a minority on the boards in that I am not a fan of the changes made to this game all in the name of balance. I hate to say it, but alot of the talk about balance started after PvP got introduced, the PvP community did this to itself with alot of crying about whatever uber build was out there at the moment. It all starts with people whining about one power doing more damage than the others and that they all need to be made equal. That really reduces the fun of the game and makes it bland across all the sets. Each set should have a unique, quirky, fun aspect to it. The differences make the game more vibrant.
Powers should be different and fun, ranged power sets should have some incentive trade offs over melee toons. In the old game melee generally kicked tail in pve and ranged in zone and it seemed like a reasonable trade off to me (Yes, yes an extreme generalization but it was just my impression from preI13).
Also, if there is one toon/build kicking tail in a zone you always have the option of teaming up. A well played team in pvp chews up uber/powergamer/iopimped builds fast, quick and in a hurry. I think it was and is a mistake to use a mathematical equation to try and standardize all sets and powers across those sets. Maybe as a guideline its ok, but last time I looked there was no Unified Theory in life so why should a video get one (sorry I love philosphy and arguing which is why I love these forums so much...probably too much information).
Well just my opinion so laugh at it if you will...I know I do .
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Here is part of the quote that I am talking about I'm not sure if this is the exact quote that I remember, but I will keep searching.
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"Only about 1/5th of the changes I asked for made it in; about half the changes that did take place were things I didn't fully back, but allowed myself to be talked into."
This only indicates to me that he didn't get all the changes he wanted. The second part sure makes it look like he's waffling on only some of the changes he 'allowed himself to be talked into'. Clearly more people than just castle were involved in the pvp changes, BUT, using castles own words...
"Ultimately, that doesn't matter in the least: The current situation *is* my responsibility. For now, I bide my time and wait for the next pass."
Obviously higher ups had to ok the pvp revamp, but castle was clearly in charge and it was his job to make the changes and sell them to the higher ups. What he came up with and implemented was a complete and utter failure. It ran off established pvp enthusiasts and did not draw in any real numbers of new players. And there was massive negative feedback that was very vocally presented before the changes went live and it was ignored. There was massive negative feedback ever since, and nothing was done to correct the situation. Here we are how long after the changes and we're still waiting for the 'next pass'.
I understand there are a lot of players that have absolutely no interest in pvp, but there are many players that do, and many others that might develop interest if the devs did anything at all for that aspect of this game. At the very least they could revert it to before the revamp so the pvp game is at least similar to pve rather than the bizarro fest it is right now. That might draw back some of the pvp enthusiasts they lost. And if they want to draw more people into pvp, up the rewards.
Regardless, clearly pvp went in the wrong direction and requires course correction, and now that the guy who by his own admission was responsible is gone, I have a little more hope that his changes might be reverted. Though in reality, it seems the people running this game have given up on this aspect of the game, which is a shame. The more stuff you can do in a game the better, and the more players you have playing the game (even the evil pvp players that many pve players hate), the better for the game and everyone playing it.
Actually, I loved the PvP revamp. Not the specific numbers. Not the whining and crying about "oh now my PvP build sucks!" Not the lack of interest in PvP; personally I don't give a damn about it.
No, I love the PvP revamp for two reasons:
a: The second build.
b: The splitting of PvP balance and PvE balance.
The second build means those who want to optimize their characters for a specific reason can do so without disturbing their "main" build.
The splitting of PvP from PvE means the development team can tinker with PvP balance all they like without destroying PvE balance at the same time. And that, ultimately, will save the game when the next round of PvP balancing acts comes.
Because, contrary to PvP enthusiast's vocal and misguided opinion, players in general do not like to PvP in MMORPGs, and it has nothing to do with the balance of said game. The mindset required for PvP is not shared by the majority of people who just want to play the game.
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I'm fairly sure no one would disagree with this. That's not what is being discussed.
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
No, I love the PvP revamp for two reasons:
a: The second build. b: The splitting of PvP balance and PvE balance. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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That is exactly what I do not understand in the least bit. They made all of these changes for the sake of attracting more new players but it did NOTHING to improve PvP, and fixed more than it broke. There was such a huge out pouring of negative feed back and still is and it is completely ignored and has not been rectified ever since. To this day I am still baffled at the shear unadulterated ignorance that the developers showed in ignoring a large portion of the community's valid suggestions. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
This only indicates to me that he didn't get all the changes he wanted. The second part sure makes it look like he's waffling on only some of the changes he 'allowed himself to be talked into'. Clearly more people than just castle were involved in the pvp changes, BUT, using castles own words...
"Ultimately, that doesn't matter in the least: The current situation *is* my responsibility. For now, I bide my time and wait for the next pass." Obviously higher ups had to ok the pvp revamp, but castle was clearly in charge and it was his job to make the changes and sell them to the higher ups. What he came up with and implemented was a complete and utter failure. It ran off established pvp enthusiasts and did not draw in any real numbers of new players. And there was massive negative feedback that was very vocally presented before the changes went live and it was ignored. There was massive negative feedback ever since, and nothing was done to correct the situation. Here we are how long after the changes and we're still waiting for the 'next pass'. |
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I understand there are a lot of players that have absolutely no interest in pvp, but there are many players that do, and many others that might develop interest if the devs did anything at all for that aspect of this game. At the very least they could revert it to before the revamp so the pvp game is at least similar to pve rather than the bizarro fest it is right now. That might draw back some of the pvp enthusiasts they lost. And if they want to draw more people into pvp, up the rewards.
Regardless, clearly pvp went in the wrong direction and requires course correction, and now that the guy who by his own admission was responsible is gone, I have a little more hope that his changes might be reverted. Though in reality, it seems the people running this game have given up on this aspect of the game, which is a shame. The more stuff you can do in a game the better, and the more players you have playing the game (even the evil pvp players that many pve players hate), the better for the game and everyone playing it. |
The biggest issue that I see with PvP right now is the development of the Incarnate System. It will either be
1: War Witch or someone sees PvP as a legitimate end game and will have it adressed
or
2: That won't happen and PvP will fester on as it is and the focus will be solely on the Incarnate system.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Clearly you loved the pvp revamp for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with pvp. The devs could fix pvp and make pvp enthusiasts happier than they are now without affecting you in any way shape or form. They could keep the dual builds based on the pve value you see in them.|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Actually, I loved the PvP revamp. Not the specific numbers. Not the whining and crying about "oh now my PvP build sucks!" Not the lack of interest in PvP; personally I don't give a damn about it.
No, I love the PvP revamp for two reasons: a: The second build. b: The splitting of PvP balance and PvE balance. The second build means those who want to optimize their characters for a specific reason can do so without disturbing their "main" build. The splitting of PvP from PvE means the development team can tinker with PvP balance all they like without destroying PvE balance at the same time. And that, ultimately, will save the game when the next round of PvP balancing acts comes. Because, contrary to PvP enthusiast's vocal and misguided opinion, players in general do not like to PvP in MMORPGs, and it has nothing to do with the balance of said game. The mindset required for PvP is not shared by the majority of people who just want to play the game. |
In regard to balance, they could make changes specific to pvp without affecting pve in any way, shape or form. In fact, that was already the case, there were already differences between the pvp and pve games before the revamp. The problem with the revamp for most players is that it made pve ridiculously unlike pve, where your best powers in pve were pitiful in pvp, and visa versa. There is absolutely no reason for pvp to be so unlike the pve game.
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The truth is, they can improve pvp without even doing all that much work. Just revert it to before the massive revamp and make minor tweaks from there. Just a few tweaks per issue where they actually listen to suggestions from the customers who play that part of the game would make that part of their customer base a hell of a lot happier than they are now. And if they want to increase pvp participation, make it worth while and improve the drops - instead of worrying about pvp farming and making the drops ridiculously rare.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
That is exactly what I do not understand in the least bit. They made all of these changes for the sake of attracting more new players but it did NOTHING to improve PvP, and fixed more than it broke. There was such a huge out pouring of negative feed back and still is and it is completely ignored and has not been rectified ever since. To this day I am still baffled at the shear unadulterated ignorance that the developers showed in ignoring a large portion of the community's valid suggestions.
I would LOVE if they reverted PvP to pre I13, and I have to agree that now with a change in developers there might be a chance to have it reverted. I believe this because under Positron's rein there were a few items that were said to never be able to be done or were to be extremely difficult to implement and unlikely to ever make it into the game and now under War Witch's rein here we have them now. Now that sounds like circular reasoning but the lady seems to be a lot more ambitious than her male counterpart. The biggest issue that I see with PvP right now is the development of the Incarnate System. It will either be 1: War Witch or someone sees PvP as a legitimate end game and will have it adressed or 2: That won't happen and PvP will fester on as it is and the focus will be solely on the Incarnate system. |
I can understand if the devs would prefer to focus on the bigger pve game, obviously, and I can understand if they don't have a lot of manpower to put on pvp. But it just doesn't make sense to let pvp just die on the vine when it would take such little effort to make obvious improvements.
I think the biggest problem with the devs in the past is they tried to balance EVERYTHING, which is not only impossible, its wrong - especially in pvp. A new player with a SO'd toon should not be on equal ground with an experienced player with an IO'd out toon. A defender should not be able to stand toe to toe with a scrapper, while at the same time, a few scrappers might find themselves at a big disadvantage vs a small team of buffers/debuffers - because thats how the game was designed. Some at's are better solo, some bring more to teams. The game is based on differences, and, gasp, imbalances.
Having said that, the pvp game has shown some of the flaws in the pve game, like the over-advantage range has over melee, which is why melee was generally looked down upon in pvp, while in pve the devs were forced to give all npc's an array of ranged attacks to deal with ranged players. Then the problem re-emerged during the early AE days where players made enemies with only melee attacks, and the devs answered with forcing ranged attacks into npcs again. There are other ways this problem can be dealt with in pvp as I've mentioned above, without affecting pve in the least, and in fact could even lead to improvements in how the pve part of the game works.
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This is such a bad bad idea because what if the PvE gets stale in this game? What will players have to turn to? There has to be some kind of balance in this game of PvE and PvP because otherwise the dev team could run into trouble later on.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
The truth is, they can improve pvp without even doing all that much work. Just revert it to before the massive revamp and make minor tweaks from there. Just a few tweaks per issue where they actually listen to suggestions from the customers who play that part of the game would make that part of their customer base a hell of a lot happier than they are now. And if they want to increase pvp participation, make it worth while and improve the drops - instead of worrying about pvp farming and making the drops ridiculously rare.
I can understand if the devs would prefer to focus on the bigger pve game, obviously, and I can understand if they don't have a lot of manpower to put on pvp. But it just doesn't make sense to let pvp just die on the vine when it would take such little effort to make obvious improvements. I think the biggest problem with the devs in the past is they tried to balance EVERYTHING, which is not only impossible, its wrong - especially in pvp. A new player with a SO'd toon should not be on equal ground with an experienced player with an IO'd out toon. A defender should not be able to stand toe to toe with a scrapper, while at the same time, a few scrappers might find themselves at a big disadvantage vs a small team of buffers/debuffers - because thats how the game was designed. Some at's are better solo, some bring more to teams. The game is based on differences, and, gasp, imbalances. Having said that, the pvp game has shown some of the flaws in the pve game, like the over-advantage range has over melee, which is why melee was generally looked down upon in pvp, while in pve the devs were forced to give all npc's an array of ranged attacks to deal with ranged players. Then the problem re-emerged during the early AE days where players made enemies with only melee attacks, and the devs answered with forcing ranged attacks into npcs again. There are other ways this problem can be dealt with in pvp as I've mentioned above, without affecting pve in the least, and in fact could even lead to improvements in how the pve part of the game works. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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If the PvE in the game gets stale, I'm not turning to PvP; I'm turning to a different game. I don't ENJOY PvP. Letting the PvE get stale isn't going to make me suddenly enjoy PvP. Don't get me wrong; I think the PvP community deserves MUCH better than it has gotten from this game. I do think the devs should pay more attention to it and to the ideas of the people who love it and want it to be better. But I think it is reasonable for the devs to FOCUS on the bigger PvE game, because that's where the majority of players spend the majority of their time.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
This is such a bad bad idea because what if the PvE gets stale in this game? What will players have to turn to? There has to be some kind of balance in this game of PvE and PvP because otherwise the dev team could run into trouble later on.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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This. If PvE here gets stale, I will leave, not play PvP. I think the PvP here was mechanically fun to do before I13, and I had fun doing it with people I like playing the game with, but it would not keep me here. I prefer my PvP in FPS format, where skill is generally far more deeply twitch based. No to-hit rolls, for example. I want to hit the target because I got my aim and lead right.|
Originally Posted by Werner
If the PvE in the game gets stale, I'm not turning to PvP; I'm turning to a different game. I don't ENJOY PvP. Letting the PvE get stale isn't going to make me suddenly enjoy PvP. Don't get me wrong; I think the PvP community deserves MUCH better than it has gotten from this game. I do think the devs should pay more attention to it and to the ideas of the people who love it and want it to be better. But I think it is reasonable for the devs to FOCUS on the bigger PvE game, because that's where the majority of players spend the majority of their time.
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If playing PvE was going to get stale for me, I would have stopped playing like four years ago.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Werner
If the PvE in the game gets stale, I'm not turning to PvP; I'm turning to a different game. I don't ENJOY PvP. Letting the PvE get stale isn't going to make me suddenly enjoy PvP. Don't get me wrong; I think the PvP community deserves MUCH better than it has gotten from this game. I do think the devs should pay more attention to it and to the ideas of the people who love it and want it to be better. But I think it is reasonable for the devs to FOCUS on the bigger PvE game, because that's where the majority of players spend the majority of their time.
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I fully agree and I'm the same way. But, it flat out wouln't require anywhere near the focus they have on pve to improve pvp. The sad thing is the one time they did put a lot of effort into pvp with the revamp, they totally screwed it up, lol.
Like I suggested before, they should just revert it to before the revamp where it is clear the vast majority of players who enjoy pvp prefered it over the bizarro system, and make a few minor tweaks every so often. There certainly is no need to focus on pvp which is clearly not as universally enjoyed as the pve game, but it definitely doesn't make sense to just throw it out when there are some players who do enjoy it, and some potential for more to get into it. I'm not one of those big pvp'ers, but maybe unlike you, I could see myself getting into it if it worked more like the pve game that I love, and if there were incentives to do so, like getting pvp recipes at a reasonable rate. I used to LOVE participating in base raids with my SG, and they flat out removed that from the game.
PVP hasn't and won't 'make or break' this game, but it has been, and could be again, another positive aspect the game has to offer customers.
I've created a monster.. muwhahaha.
No but seriously. I think everyone here has valid points and opinions, but nothing is going to change what has been changed. i13 happened. My question still remains, who is in charge now? And what are they going to do about balancing? Whether the community pvp's or not, it is still part of the game and it's obvious the majority of people dislike pvp because of the rules set in place. If I was a developer that would be a red flag to me to invest a little, even just a LITTLE, time into updating the pvp mechanics as it is part of the game.
A list of things people think need to be changed can be found in the pvp section so I won't drag that here. The original question I had was half answered by a few and thank you all for the numbers on Concentrated Strike vs others. Again the question remains, who is in charge of power balancing now and will we see any updates?
In the mean time I suppose I will just make do with thunderstrike and proc the crap out of it.
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I love you.
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Originally Posted by Eldorado
Better yet, I'm waiting for the 300 parody:
Close-up, Incredible Man: "This is...madness!" Cut to close-up, Psychotic Scrapper: "This is -- THE SCRAPPER FORUM!" Cut to over-the-shoulder shot of Psychotic Scrapper Crane Kicking Incredible Man backwards 200' into pylon, whereupon a HUGE swarm of missiles promptly turn Incredible into a grease spot. Brightly colored spandex tatters drift in the breeze. |
Ware ni tatenu mono mashi!!
[There are none before me who have not been cleaved!!]
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The obvious answer is no. They haven't looked at it in a couple years, and they've made it clear that they aren't planning on doing it for a long time. And this was before the main PvP guy quit.|
Originally Posted by Syndace
Is ANYONE looking at PvP numbers on the coh team? That's all I want to know.
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If PvP is really the only thing left for you in this game, it really is time to move on. There is zero reason to wait or hope for anything at this point. Doing so is not only stupid...I would actually call it insane.
That said, the PvE can be fun if you haven't done it for a while. I did only PvP for several years, but now that I've completely given up on it, the PvE is actually pretty fun again. After years of no PvE, it almost feels like a brand new game.
But to reiterate, no, nobody on the dev team is currently working on PvP.
Some one make a Kanye West motivational picture that says the developers hate PvP
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Well said, thanks for the tip. I suppose I'll keep to PvE now.. all the new loot and drops have kept me mildly entertained. I haven't done some of the newer TF's so maybe I'll give em a shot. So yea I give up on new PvP characters, if I ever feel like doing so I'll just jump on my OP dom >|
Originally Posted by Supermax
The obvious answer is no. They haven't looked at it in a couple years, and they've made it clear that they aren't planning on doing it for a long time. And this was before the main PvP guy quit.
If PvP is really the only thing left for you in this game, it really is time to move on. There is zero reason to wait or hope for anything at this point. Doing so is not only stupid...I would actually call it insane. That said, the PvE can be fun if you haven't done it for a while. I did only PvP for several years, but now that I've completely given up on it, the PvE is actually pretty fun again. After years of no PvE, it almost feels like a brand new game. But to reiterate, no, nobody on the dev team is currently working on PvP. |
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This.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Some one make a Kanye West motivational picture that says the developers hate PvP
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I posted in Castle's going away thread, and I thanked him strongly for what he did in PvE. I didn't mention PvP at all, going for that whole "if you can't say something good..." I don't live my life by that adage, but there are times and places for it, and I think a going away thread is one.
Exactly. I've disagreed with some of his pve decisions, but overall pve is fine, so clearly he did a fine job overall in regard to pve. But we're discussing pvp, and the changes he made to pvp were disasterous, imo, and I'm not even one of the guys who was in love with the old system.